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Australia to cancel F35 for F22?

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posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 10:06 AM
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www.defenseindustrydaily.com...


yet another on the edge OP/ED piece


"[Recently] Retired RAAF air vice-marshal Peter Criss has put aside usual conventions to openly question the wisdom of Canberra spending about $16 billion for the F-35 Lightning, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter. The Government committed an initial $300 million to become an early partner in the JSF program, with a final decision to be made by 2008. But Mr Criss says the RAAF should, in fact, consider buying the F-22 Raptor…"



there are some VERY valid points raised - given that A2A capability will not be ready for at the earliest 2016 - and that AUS wouldn`t recieve any F35`s till 2020 - and that the F111 will be retired in 2010 - its leaves a massive capability gap for 10 years :O

with the purchase of 24 F/A 18`s - there is a very seriously debated possibility - use the the super fries as bomb trucks - cancel the F35 as they won`t be needed within the time frame - and get Raptors for the A2A work.


It does seem that 2008 year could very well be a crunch year for the export of the F35 (which is llready slipping - see my other thread) , with denmark , the netherlands , quite possibly the uk and now aus looking elsewhere - can the US afford to buy the aircraft at all when it will be 1/3 the cost of a B2.




posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 11:05 AM
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The F-22A is not available for purchase, there are laws against it in the US.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by RichardPrice
The F-22A is not available for purchase, there are laws against it in the US.



True - but with the F-15 (and JSF A2A not being available until 2015+) problems, congress might see the wisdom in keeping the production line flexible and open.


It is probably now more possible than ever before that they may approve an F-22 purchase/export.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 11:22 AM
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It's still a big gamble to pin your hopes on Congress authorising foreign sales of the Raptor. It might end up leaving Australia with an even bigger gap in its air-to-air capabilities than if it purchased the F-35.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 12:07 PM
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AWST this week had another article on this very topic. Both Japan and Australia now seem to be wanting the Raptor. Both are a very good fit for thier defence forces but................

1) Congress will have to be moved off its no export perch. Also do not underestimate the lobby of Isreal. If they want it badly, they will force congress to export it to them opening the door to Japan and Autralia.

2) IMHO both Australia and Japan are far less likely to "trade" secrets about the F-22 to the Chinese anytime soon either as Isreal has done on other projects.

3) It would keep the line open, drive down unit costs, and ultimetly allow the US to buy more of the aircraft.

4) However, the JSF lobby is pretty powerfull as well and many more states would be affected if thier numbers are curtailed. Any purchase of the F-22 would have to be in conjunction with F-35 sales IMHO. Otherwise youa re robbing Peter to save Paul and any savings made in F-22 production would quickly be eaten up by the increase in F-35 unit cost



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 12:18 PM
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The other lobby option i can see - we cancel F35 and by eurocanard...


as in another thread - even the Brits are looking into that option - tranche 3 Typhoon vs F35 (or Rafale for the navy to egt the french onboard the new carrier - 3 will cost less each than 2) , denmark will probably buy Gripen-N , and netherlands is leaning to Typhoon - they allready have industry in the programme anyway , belgium likewise are also *quietly* considering other options.

japan don`t want F35 and neither does India - who i can very much see buying russia unless the Raptor is on the table , AESA isn`t the big selling point now as many countries have it and as a bomb truck the F35 when bombs are hanging off everywhere isn`t the `stealth boy` on the block

so that brings us to AUS - they want a bomb truck , as for some reason they want to retire the built from solid steel Aardvark - so they are getting the super bug - and when they see that , well it can carry bombs - and they don`t use it on a first in the door mission it`ll be `nearly` as good as there aardvark -so they want an A2A plane - which as allready reported the F35 won`t be till 2016 at the earliest - barring anymore delays to this programme.

So like Japan they want Raptor.

ANd if raptor isn`t offered - will they genuinely look elsewhere? probably not - or will they?



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 12:28 PM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


And through all of this Canada keeps quite. Sometimes I'm not sure if its smart we keep our mouth shut or if we continued to get over looked. But the fact is that the USAF is looking for a sale of just as many if not more to Canada then other NATO countries. A sale of 100 or more aircraft isn't a small deal, though i have heard the 8o plane mark throwen around as well.

The F-22 issue of export sale is one that is going to get harder for the US to turn down with the serious issues on going with the F-35. As it stands though it can still go either way for sale or staying no sale policy. If this continues though there could be more serious thoughts on the defence departments of the Canada and the like for the EF or Gripen as others have said.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by Canada_EH
And through all of this Canada keeps quite. Sometimes I'm not sure if its smart we keep our mouth shut or if we continued to get over looked. But the fact is that the USAF is looking for a sale of just as many if not more to Canada then other NATO countries. A sale of 100 or more aircraft isn't a small deal, though i have heard the 8o plane mark throwen around as well.


I highly doubt that the F-35 is going to go to Canada in any large numbers. I'd be completely unsurprised to see Canada simply opt not to buy the F-35's, and try to lay some hands on a few Super Hornets just to be nice. The current CF-18's need replacing, but I don't think they do enough duty to justify an expensive 5th-Generation aircraft. To be honest, I would be completely unfazed to see a couple Flankers come over here. They're made for multirole, they're made for nasty weather similar to our own, they're not ungodly expensive, and they actually work! The other, sane part of my brain just knows that it's not going to happen. We don't want to tick off our American buddies by buying Russian.

The point I'm trying to make is that Canada is not a big enough player to justify buying 100, or even 80, fancy new aircraft that are going to strain our defense budget. I'd say that getting the F-18 E/F is a better idea, but I'm even leaning towards the Rafale. It's small, cheap, but by no means a wimp. Anyway, I'm done my bi-weekly rant.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 07:28 PM
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reply to post by Darkpr0
 


LOL your biweekly rant on Canada buying flankers which wont happen. Canada has interest in 80 F-35 which has come from the DND as a what if not a confirmed. Oh and not enough duty? Check out the F-15 grounded again thread. They where called up to cover Alaskan airspace and then returned when the f-15s where flying again. But the 15's are grounded again and the USAF has hinted that they are receiving help again from partner countries. The DND will most likely not talk about it as they don't give out information on current operations for security reasons.

You have valid points about cost etc of a fifth gen aircraft. The E/F is possible as well as the EF or Gripen but I'm less convinced about the Rafale



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by Canada_EH
LOL your biweekly rant on Canada buying flankers which wont happen.


Hey, haven't we all wanted to see a Flanker with the RCAF logos on the wings?



They where called up to cover Alaskan airspace


From what?




You have valid points about cost etc of a fifth gen aircraft. The E/F is possible as well as the EF or Gripen but I'm less convinced about the Rafale


Ultimately I'd say that anything in the European area is the best choice, next to the E/F. The F-35 is made for countries that put substantial amounts of money into defense, and I personally can't say I think that Canada is one of them. Our buddies to the south would probably allocate a couple Super Hornets if we were to express some interest. Altogether, I'd say that they're a fine choice (and me saying that about a Super Fries is a really big deal) since our pilots are already familiar with the CF-18's, the infrastructure is there, and they're good performers for the price. As well, you bring up a good thought about the EF-2000 and the Gripen. I'd say that any of the European aircraft are fine choices.

EF-2000 is an aircraft in good production, and the Tranche 3 upgrades are pretty compelling. Rafale is another good multirole, and it's fairly cheap. As well, Dassault is searching for buyers, so I expect any who do go for the Rafale will get prime treatment. Gripen is interesting because it's capable of working for rugged runways and in nasty environments. All-in-all, I'd take basically anything but the F-35.

I've got a 2-for-1 deal on bi-weekly rants.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 04:53 AM
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If I was to have one plane type to cover both a2a and a2g role I'd want it to be first and foremost a a2a aircraft, since I consider being able to defend your own airspace and troops is the first priority.

So I think they should go for the typhoon. If they want the F22 then they need to have the Typhoon (or another non US aircraft as the only other option) while Australia only has options which are US planes the US isn't going to let them have the F22 since they will still get a sale of US aircraft.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 05:39 AM
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Best for ALL partners to have a bet each way!!

Yes u can still get single seat F-15F eagles.( strike eagle fit )
The 2 seater strike eagles are still being built.

JSF alternatives

F-15E/F
F-18E/F
F-16E/F
Rafale
Typhoon
Gripen
J-10
Su series

It wouldnt hurt for smart countries to research and price up
alternatives????

OR do you really need 5th generation aircraft?????



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:54 AM
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as Winged Wombat said - it will be doubtful to see any new F15 orders now that the problems with the US fleet is in the open - F15 C or E or XYZ - model won`t matter - its just the name `F15` that will be the issue.

look at Japan and Saudi - the grounded all F15`s - inc the strike fighters over the safety scares.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 10:50 AM
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reply to post by Darkpr0
 


The CF-188 was called up from 3 Wing Bagotville to the USAF Elmendorf alaska airbase.
www.cbc.ca...

And the hint in a USAF article

Air Combat Command officials continue to work with those in the Air National Guard, the Air Force Reserve and sister major commands in Europe and the Pacific, as well as with joint and coalition partners, to ensure mission coverage.

www.af.mil...

There is your answer Darkpro. I guess my reason for a different aircraft from the Hornet is that I'd like a new airshow routine lol. But yeah the E/F makes alot of sence but the Europe options are interesting. And in that once in a blue moon option of the Su-30. I lean away from that as the choosing of the CC-177 and CH-148 Cyclone instead of Russian options.

[edit on 22/08/06 by Canada_EH]



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