Muhammad - Prophet or Profiteer of God?

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posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 04:47 AM
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Originally posted by blueorder
You said it was nothing to do with Islam, I was pointing out it was

But you haven't. Islam as a religious creed would be defined by the Quran and the Authentic Hadith, not what people who say they are muslims are doing, or did.



Originally posted by blueorder
the religion is full of contradictions, these jihadists can happily use references to support their actions

Please show me a contradiction that the 'jihadists' (what an odd expression!) use as reference.



Originally posted by blueorder
Christian rulings do not involve law or physical punishment- they offer guidance, there is no shariah law in Christianity, if people choose to use condoms the Church and Christians will not attack them- they leave the advice to a spiritual level.

I would disagree with the fact that Christian rulings do not involve law or physical punishment. It is more that western society has decided to distance itself from these rulings. However, that is irrelevant. As a religious leader, the Pope has significant power over his followers. If he says 'This is wrong/unchristian/unlawful', you can be sure that a very large number of Christians would listen to him and follow his instructions.



Originally posted by blueorder
People will undoutedly use anything in a violent way, be it communism or religion, but pointing out that world and other faiths are not perfect does not lead to equivalence with the actions done in the name of Islam- it stands out head and shoulders above the rest, by some considerable margin

I disagree that is stands out. And I wasn't using the examples of other faiths to justify anything, I was using them as examples of misuses by certain individuals or groups of those beliefs.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by babloyi]




posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 04:55 AM
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Originally posted by babloyiI disagree that is stands out. And I wasn't using the examples of other faiths to justify anything, I was using them as examples of misuses by certain individuals or groups of those beliefs.


You seem a reasonable guy (are you muslim?), but please try and open your eyes- if you think that people are being beheaded in the name of Christianity, if you think that thousands of Christians take to the streets demanding a middle aged woman be shot over a teddy bear, if you think that hundreds have died in Christian riots over a cartoon, then sir, I do not think you are being entirely honest.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by blueorder]

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trimmed big quote

please read ABOUT ATS: Warnings for excessive quoting, and how to quote

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[edit on 7/12/07 by masqua]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 05:13 AM
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Originally posted by blueorder
Take for example this well educated english muslim on this thread-

Why? What has this got to do with what Islam teaches?



Originally posted by blueorder
It is entirely relevant, I would have no problem if Islam existed on a level where leaders gave advice, and removed physical governance as part of that guidance (be it shariah law, or the actions of the jihadists)- There is nothing wrong with spiritual guidance, as long as there is no physical, legal enforcement of it, be it Islamic or Christian

So if the Pope suggested that witches should be burnt, that is okay, because it is just a leader giving advice? You seem to underestimate the power that leaders (spiritual, political, etc) have over their people. Anyhow, how can actions of 'Jihadists' (I still consider this an odd term, considering that it signifies some sort of 'group' with certain aims (which technically have nothing to do with the name), and implies that all such people have the same aims and objectives) be part of 'physical governance'?



Originally posted by blueorder
You seem a reasonable guy (are you muslim?), but please try and open your eyes- if you think that people are being beheaded in the name of Christianity, if you think that thousands of Christians take to the streets demanding a middle aged woman be shot over a teddy bear, if you think that hundreds have died in Christian riots over a cartoon, then sir, I do not think you are being entirely honest.

If I said I was muslim, would that change your mind as to my reasonableness
? People are beheaded (still) for any number of reasons. Islam certainly does not have a monopoly on beheading. When did thousands of muslims take to the streets demanding a middle aged woman be shot? When did hundreds of muslims die in riots over a cartoon?

But then again, you missed my point. What people (who are apparently muslim) do has nothing to do with the tenets of Islam. To find out the tenets of Islam, check out the Quran.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by babloyi]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 05:27 AM
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I have done, a stunningly contradictory book which leads to different muslims perceiving and acting on it differently

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Deleted Big Quote of post directly above

please read ABOUT ATS: Warnings for excessive quoting, and how to quote

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[edit on 7/12/07 by masqua]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 05:28 AM
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Reply to blueorder

Let me repeat, this chap was born and educated in England- this is a Muslim born in England, the sort of person the elite waffle about the joys of "multi culturalism"

Clearly the UK is no place for such people- you have to laugh though, they bang on about being devout, but clearly the wealth offered in the UK is more important that having a life under Sharia Law in Sudan.

Hypocritical and foreign to the UK, never forget it

It’s called living in UK following UKs rules and laws and also spreading Islam.How am I gona convert (with the blessings of Allah) more people to Muslims if I live in Saudia Arabia?Not very likey matey! Our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) told his followers to go to each corner of the world to spread Islam. If I live here I spread Islam, I have 5 kids they spread Islam, they have their 5 kids they spread Islam! We grow and spread thats how Islam is reaching West matey!

What are you gona do about it?Nothing just sit and watch and complain about it on internet.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 05:38 AM
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Originally posted by kangjia57

It’s called living in UK following UKs rules and laws and also spreading Islam.How am I gona convert (with the blessings of Allah) more people to Muslims if I live in Saudia Arabia?Not very likey matey! Our Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) told his followers to go to each corner of the world to spread Islam. If I live here I spread Islam, I have 5 kids they spread Islam, they have their 5 kids they spread Islam! We grow and spread thats how Islam is reaching West matey!

What are you gona do about it?Nothing just sit and watch and complain about it on internet.


Yeah, good luck with your mass conversions as you sweet talk them with tales of throwing gays off mountains, he he, why not give Brighton a try!

Loads of people falling away from Islam in the UK matey, they like their western lifestyle too much hehe

As for me, already had my first daughter and plan at least 3 more if God premits- each one will be instilled to afford Islam no respect- I will teach them to treat individuals, even if they are muslims with respect, but, no respect to the religion itself.

Also, I financially support several legal organisations who wish to maintain the secular-christian heritage of our fine nation

We beat the Nazis, the spirit never dies



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 05:41 AM
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Originally posted by blueorder
he is a muslim, who has studied the Koran all his life, and that is his religious stance- are you saying he is not a Muslim?

According to his profile, he is an 18 year old teenager. I don't think he has studied the Quran his entire life (Correct me if I'm wrong, kangjia), or else he would have known (as he does now) that the whole tossing of homosexuals over a mountain thing was not of Islam.



Originally posted by blueorder
Jihadists is perfectly viable, considering they use the term themselves- ridding their "land" of the infidle etc, the eternal physical jihad

What has ridding "land" of the infidle[sic] have to do with jihad? Where did the term 'eternal physical jihad' come from? There is more than 1 type of physical Jihad, and as I said earlier, defending oneself (not 'ridding land of infidles
) is but one small part of this.



Originally posted by blueorder
In Sudan the other day, thousands demanded this woman be shot and hundreds died in worldiwde muslim violence over the danish cartoons

I believe you have your facts wrong. You may want to recheck them.



Originally posted by blueorder
I have done, a stunningly contradictory book which leads to different muslims perceiving and acting on it differently

But you have not yet posted an example of a contradiction that would be used as a reference by these muslims.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by babloyi]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:05 AM
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Originally posted by blueorder
strange then that this MUSLIM thinks they should be killed and that muslim nations have the death penalty for homosexuals- all a stunning set of coincidences

What is a muslim nation? A nation that has a majority of Muslims? Like the example I gave before, the Taliban (who ruled Afghanistan- was it MUSLIM nation then?) executed people for homosexual acts by dropping a wall on them. Taliban were leaders of a MUSLIM nation. They DROPPED WALLS as punishment. A STUNNING COINCIDENCE! It must be related!



Originally posted by blueorder
yes, I already said there are several types of jihad *including internal/spiritual*, I already acknowledged this- I am referring to the Jihadists who are murdering people, and quoting their Islamic faith in the process.

But you still didn't understand. It is not like jihad is divided into 2 groups of *internal/spiritual* and *external-lets slaughter the infidels* type. Jihad means striving in the cause of God. Getting an education is Jihad. Travelling around to preach Islam is Jihad. Working as a doctor to save lives is Jihad. Fasting when not required is Jihad. I'd consider all of these to be pretty 'physical' and 'external'. Murdering people is not Jihad.



Originally posted by blueorder
did muslims march demanding this woman be shot over a teddy bear and did people die in muslim violence over cartoons?

There is a huge difference between 'thousands of people' and 'hundreds of people' and '400 people' or '100 people'.



Originally posted by blueorder
The book itself is riddled with contradictions- have a little squint back several pages to blueeyeddevil's sage input, ta

I did, and I also responded to his post.

EDIT: Sorry if my posts have taken a biting turn. I guess I am tired. Hope you don't take it personal.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by babloyi]

[edit on 7-12-2007 by babloyi]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:12 AM
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Contradictions abound then, both in the book and in the actions of various believers

[edit on 7-12-2007 by blueorder]

--------------------------------------
Please read ABOUT ATS: Warnings for excessive quoting, and how to quote

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 7/12/07 by masqua]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:12 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Removed to avoid drama. U2U sent instead.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by Beachcoma]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:15 AM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma
Why are you still arguing with this guy? He's never posted any supporting facts other than his own opinions, and he's rabidly anti-Muslim. Even in threads as diverse in subject as Christianity or the Nazi party he manages to insert a little jab at Islam.

Like a Stormfronter, but instead of Jews he picks on Muslims.


Have a look for yourself.



You aren't interested in debate, that is plain to see, silly little stormfront jibes, well done Stalin



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:25 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


What debate? You keep going around in circles with the same opinions despite being presented evidence to the contrary. Reason just fails in these sort of cases.

There's no debating with you, just petty bickering over a matter of opinion.

Not to mention you've attempted to derail the thread from the topic and the OP since your first posting here.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by Beachcoma]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:27 AM
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Originally posted by blueorder
a nation run on Islamic lines for a start, check out Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Northern Nigera (part nation, being the muslim part) - your silence on genocide of homosexuals by these muslims is staggering, well played sir

Saudi Arabia, Sudan (I don't about Nigeria) have a very large number of unislamic practices. So obviously, they are not exactly being run 'on islamic lines'.
And please don't put words (or lack of words) in my mouth. I was talking the validity of executing homosexuals in Islam, not these countries. I might as well point to you and say 'your silence on genocide by Ghengiz Khan is staggering, well played sir!'. As I've tried to point out time and time again, what certain countries/individuals that claim to be muslim do is not indicative of Islam! This must be the reason I'm getting so tired.


Originally posted by blueorder
The meaning of jihad is disputed- some take on jihad as you have mentioned above, others (the jihadists I am clearly referring to as I am sure you well know) view it as combat (violence and war) in the name of God- this point has been clarified several times

No, the meaning of Jihad is very obvious and clear. It means striving/struggling in the path of God. I'm absolutely certain that whatever their other ideas about Islam, these other 'jihadists' (if they have any learning with regards to Islam), even if they do believe that murdering infidels is Jihad, will know that Jihad does not only mean combat. Tell me, if a person was going to school, would you call them a Jihadist because of this? Would you call a doctor a Jihadist because he might save lives?



Originally posted by blueorder
the numbers involved are in dispute, the fact that you are trying to mire yourself over whether there was 999 or 1,001 is irrelevant- do you accept that muslims in Sudan marched demanding this woman be shot over a teddy bear

I cannot see any dispute with regards to the numbers. No, I am not trying to mire anything, just clarify the difference between 400 people and 139 people and 'thousands of people' or 'hundreds of people'.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by babloyi]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:28 AM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma
What debate? You keep going around in circles with the same opinions despite being presented evidence to the contrary. Reason just fails in these sort of cases.

There's no debating with you, just petty bickering over a matter of opinion.

[edit on 7-12-2007 by Beachcoma]



Just falsehood you are postin there, if you do not wish to join in the debate do not, I am debating quite happily with other posters, if you don't like it but out.

WHere is your wee hissy fit over a member stating he wishes all homosexuals to be "illiminated"



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:33 AM
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The numbers are in dispute from various sources- what is not in dispute is that muslims marched, whether in the hundreds, or the thousands, to demand death to a middle aged woman over a teddy bear- do you dispute this?

-----------------------------------------
Please read
ABOUT ATS: Warnings for excessive quoting, and how to quote

www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 7/12/07 by masqua]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:38 AM
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reply to post by blueorder
 


I need to get some rest. Meanwhile, just some ATS advice, you need to format your posts properly so that the whole thing doesn't appear in quotes. I think the 'quotes' part has to be lowercase, not uppercase, as you are doing.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 06:53 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


ta



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 09:05 AM
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Of course Muslims have the potential to be extremists. At least those that I see on TV banging their heads until they bleed.

They are seemingly devoid of self awareness, and demonstrate the ability to be whipped into a frenzy.

If this isn't sufficient proof then I don't know what is.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by kacou
 


Those are all documented facts not opinion...so where does 'poor' fit into your comment? just live with the fact that it is what it is mang. sorry.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


wrong again..read historical books as well as the quran...then re-post





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