Muhammad - Prophet or Profiteer of God?

kangjia57, might I ask you a few things...

Do you agree with all of the laws of Saudi Arabia, such as women not being allowed to drive and practically being treated as second-class citizens?

Do you believe in killing/torturing people for homosexuality?

Do you believe in outlawing other religions besides Islam/treating them as second class citizens in Saudi Arabia?

Do you believe in forcing Islamic law on anyone who is in a Muslim country, regardless of that persons faith? Such as restricting them to practice their religion (I'm a pagan...), and forcing women to wear hijabs even if not Muslim, and to be treated as second-class citizens such as in Saudi Arabia?

I know not all Muslim countries are like that. Turkey is very free, for example. I admire them. Malaysia is also okay, I can tolerate it, though some things are weird about it, for instance apparently from what I read they have Shariah law but it only applies to Muslims...for instance if your a Muslim in Malaysia and you drink alcohol that would be illegal but if your not a Muslim it's okay.

I suppose thats "fair", but when I stop and think about it, seems a bit redundant...if someone is devoted to their religion, does it even need to be made a law? Do they need a law? Especially since the country tolerates non-Muslims, might as well not enforce Shariah law at all. Too complicated to explain in depth what I mean especially since I'm at school and short on time, but you might understand. Beachcoma can you enlighten me on this since your from Malaysia?

Reply to Grenade

Unfortunately the laws and rules within Islam are finalised and cannot be changed.

Why would they want perfection to change

Exactly!

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Grenade

Unfortunately the laws and rules within Islam are finalised and cannot be changed.

Why would they want perfection to change

Exactly!

So, for those who say Islam can adapt and modernise, you would be the more realistic face of Islam, yes brother

reply to post by Grenade


Sharia law (as the concept exists today) is not Islamic, and is definitely not perfect. It is an ideology that emerged in completion some time in the middle of the last millennia from four schools of thought that based themselves on interpretations of the Quran and Hadith/Sunnah. Different groups of people from different parts of the world have different interpretations of Sharia. You can see how the Chinese-Whisperers-ing of this concept has mutated it all. For example: Taliban believe that according to Sharia homosexuals should be executed by having a wall dropped on them, not having a beard is punishable by imprisonment (until the beard grows to the proper length), and barbers that shave beards are punishable by death. A few 100Km away, such ideas would be laughable.

The irony I don't understand is this, the radical muslims are extremely proud that they always ready and willing to die for their cause yet when they are accomodated, many many people get bent out of shape.

Perhaps this is a better solution?

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Grenade

 

Sharia law (as the concept exists today) is not Islamic, and is definitely not perfect. It is an ideology that emerged in completion some time in the middle of the last millennia from four schools of thought that based themselves on interpretations of the Quran and Hadith/Sunnah. Different groups of people from different parts of the world have different interpretations of Sharia. You can see how the Chinese-Whisperers-ing of this concept has mutated it all. For example: Taliban believe that according to Sharia homosexuals should be executed by having a wall dropped on them, not having a beard is punishable by imprisonment (until the beard grows to the proper length), and barbers that shave beards are punishable by death. A few 100Km away, such ideas would be laughable.

you say it is not "islamic", well it is in the sense that is related to Islam, not CHristianity for example.

Secularists dont follow shariah law, jews dont etc- it is an Islamic thing (whether most muslims follow it or not)

reply to post by blueorder


I say it is not Islamic in the sense that Islam does not endorse it. The fact that certain muslims do, has hardly got anything to do with Islam, and even less so to do with Muhammad.

[edit on 6-12-2007 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi

I say it is not Islamic in the sense that Islam does not endorse it. The fact that certain muslims do, is hardly got anything to do with Islam, and even less so to do with Muhammad.

I disagree with your reasoning, it is entirely to do with Islam as it is only muslims that follow sharia law and do so, as they believe it to be the requirement of their interpretation of Islam

reply to post by Grenade


Changing nothing there. Just returning back to the parts that made it good, before all the nonsense fatwas. All based on the Qur'an and the Hadith Sahih.

See, it sort of evolved in a bell curve, the way I see it. Fledgling --> Expansion --> Golden Age --> The Murderous Moghuls --> The Doped up Ottomans --> Idiotic Fundamentalists. The way I see, this is a call to return back to the values of the Golden Age.

Originally posted by Kacen
Beachcoma can you enlighten me on this since your from Malaysia?

Yeah, it's like how you described. Done that way so that the other political party, The Islamic Party of Malaysia (PAS) don't have teeth. Better off that way, because PAS has some extreme and bigoted views. If you ever visit the country, stay away from areas under their control (the states of Kelantan and Terengganu). They're rather extreme and narrow-minded.

In short, it's a political move to appease the side that would otherwise be swayed by PAS' firebrand rhetoric.

Sharia law (as the concept exists today) is not Islamic, and is definitely not perfect.

But there is a perfect way though,some countries add there own bits to it and claim it as sharia law which is wrong.

Taliban believe that according to Sharia homosexuals should be executed by having a wall dropped on them, not having a beard is punishable by imprisonment (until the beard grows to the proper length), and barbers that shave beards are punishable by death. A few 100Km away, such ideas would be laughable.

I agree!They did mess up a few things up.

The real way to punish homosexuals according to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is to drop them off a mountain top.

Not having a beard is up to a Muslims personal choice, it’s a good act though because you are following the sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).But Muslim should not be punished for it

Originally posted by kangjia57


The real way to punish homosexuals according to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is to drop them off a mountain top.

right guys, here is an english muslim, born and reared in the modern west, and still this is the view they hold, ffs


Modernise my arsehole

Reply to Blueorder

right guys, here is an english muslim, born and reared in the modern west, and still this is the view they hold, ffs

I rather stick to medieval ideas (according to you) than have homos running around doing their THING in Muslim countries matey!

reply to post by kangjia57


Yes you truly are a shining example of a liberal, free thinking, peaceful, adaptable, considerate human being. Your ideology is a shining exampe to our children on acceptance.

I dont particularly agree with homosexuality myself however dropping anyone who is gay off a mountain is highly offensive. You expect us to respect and not ridicule your culture, you expect us to see it as peaceful yet the first hate speech in this entire thread was posted by a Muslim, basically calling for the death of homosexuals.

Thank you for finally proving my point! If you dont agree with Muhammad then you can rot in hell, not only that you will be sent there quicker through a gruesome, barbaric death.

Reply to Kacen

Do you agree with all of the laws of Saudi Arabia, such as women not being allowed to drive and practically being treated as second-class citizens?

Nope like I said Muslim countries make up their own laws sometimes and claim its Sharia Law which is total BS.Women should be allowed to drive and treated as first class citizens.Thats how Islam says it should be

Do you believe in killing/torturing people for homosexuality?

Nope.Just treating them according to what Sharia law states for homosexuality.

Do you believe in outlawing other religions besides Islam/treating them as second class citizens in Saudi Arabia?

Nope outlawing other religions is not Islamic.Other religions are allowed to exist within Muslim countries.And they should also be treated as first class citizen.

Do you believe in forcing Islamic law on anyone who is in a Muslim country, regardless of that persons faith? Such as restricting them to practice their religion (I'm a pagan...), and forcing women to wear hijabs even if not Muslim, and to be treated as second-class citizens such as in Saudi Arabia?

After enforcing Islamic law, everyone under it has to abide by it Muslim or not Muslim. And if non-Muslims don’t like it than they should leave the country.Like i live in UK and according to Islam i follow the rules nad laws of this country.

Reply to grenade

Thank you for finally proving my point! If you dont agree with Muhammad then you can rot in hell, not only that you will be sent there quicker through a gruesome, barbaric death.

WOO calm down I am sure we can respect each others ideas with cool heads. You love your way of life and I love mine. I understand to you its abit extreme and I would be the same if I was in your place. But you know if I can do anything about it than I would! But I am bound by my religion and I have to accept what my religion had offered me, and I can’t change it!

reply to post by kangjia57


I fail to see the logic in your argument. It is hard to keep a cool head when i try to promote peace, learning and acceptance.

You on the other hand believe in a religion which promotes death, punishment and the idea that women should be second class citizens.

I have never called for, nor advocated the use of violence to enforce laws. Instead i ask that we use a system based on human rights, learning, equality, adaptability and understanding.




[edit on 6/12/07 by Grenade]

reply to post by kangjia57


Hey kangjia! While the practice of homosexuality is condemned in the Quran, I cannot find any instance of a punishment of 'dropping from a mountain', either in the Quran, or in the Hadith. Can you tell me where you got this from?

Reply to babloyi

I aint got evidence now and gtg aswel,but after i find it i will tell you by tomorrow!

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Kacen


Do you believe in killing/torturing people for homosexuality?

Nope.Just treating them according to what Sharia law states for homosexuality.

Would that involve throwing them off a cliff?


Very interesting thread.

Originally posted by kangjia57
I agree!They did mess up a few things up.

The real way to punish homosexuals according to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is to drop them off a mountain top.

My jaw just dropped…

I have gay friends, my two closest friends are lesbians, you really believe in killing them?

Don’t you think the fact that in such countries where it’s punishable by death, the fact that homosexuals still exists shows it may not be a choice?

In Palestine homosexuals sometimes are forced to escape to Israel out of fear of death! That shows something…

My mind has genocidal feelings, but seeing Beachcoma calms me down...

kangjia57, by your definition, is Beachcoma a true Muslim? =/

Originally posted by kangjia57Nope outlawing other religions is not Islamic.Other religions are allowed to exist within Muslim countries.And they should also be treated as first class citizen.

Wait, doesn't this somewhat contradict...

Originally posted by kangjia57After enforcing Islamic law, everyone under it has to abide by it Muslim or not Muslim. And if non-Muslims don’t like it than they should leave the country.Like i live in UK and according to Islam i follow the rules nad laws of this country.

Can't that in turn effect freedom of religion, thus negating the previous quote?

And you make an analogy with the UK, which is weird, the UK allows freedom to practice -any- religion...wouldn't it be fair, in turn, for Muslim countries to do the same?

Imagine if Britain was still under Christian law, you yourself could be killed for your beliefs! But they had the kindness to make freedom of religion many years ago.

Look at it from that point of view, and you might understand.

In your opinion, what would be done to me, a pagan, who does not try to convert people, in a Muslim country that was run the way you personally want it to be run?

Ugh reading your posts over and over I realize your somewhat hypocritical and/or confusing, or I misunderstand you.

[edit on 12/6/2007 by Kacen]