Muhammad - Prophet or Profiteer of God?

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by Grenade
To me this account shows that Muhammad ordered murder in defence of his reputation. Not self defence as has been stated. Does this event not contradict his own teachings as to the use of violence?

Logically the answer to that is no. Thus you then have to think aobut what the blind man could be a metaphor of. Death for example?

So then Muhammad had morning prayers with death, death then asked Muhammad if there was anything else he could do for him? If Muhammad had death at his mercy then surely there wouldnt have been any of the battles i listed earlier. Just ask the Grimm Reaper to take care of it for you.

reply to post by kangjia57


And if these laws and rules confilict with the teachings of the Qur'an, which laws take precedent? The countries laws or Shariah law?

reply to post by Grenade


Can you give examples of conflicting laws, first?

Originally posted by Grenade
So Western cultures have to adapt to cater for the Muslim faith yet Muslim's have no duty to adapt or cater for Western culture? You realise the hypocricy in that statement?

You do realise, all these things they would already do for people under the right circumstances?

They aren't changing for Muslims, they are doing it out of simple respect. How hard is it to not shake a womans hand if she's in full Islamic dress?

Western World will collapse because of this! Ahhh noooo!

Grenade, please explain how a blind person could do all that?

You yourself said you have children, when they were rather young you should know how easily they can wake up.

Do you honestly believe, that a blind man, can do all that? In that day and age? Honestly?

reply to post by Beachcoma


Sure, as far as im aware most Muslims, follow the parts of sharia that relate to the status of women, to contracts and to family law.

These include provisions that allow men several wives and that enshrine, in law, the inferiority of women.

Women can be divorced merely by their husbands reciting "I divorce you" three times, their testimony is worth less than that of men and they cannot marry a non-Muslim man - although it is permissible for a Muslim man to marry a non-Muslim woman.

It is parts of sharia such as these that come into immediate conflict with Britain's secular law, which is committed to treating all citizens equally.

I may be mis-informed however maybe a Muslim can clear this up for us?

SOURCE

reply to post by Odium

Originally posted by Odium
Grenade, please explain how a blind person could do all that?

You yourself said you have children, when they were rather young you should know how easily they can wake up.

Do you honestly believe, that a blind man, can do all that? In that day and age? Honestly?

Well it seems more logical than talking to Angels and speaking the word of God. Yet you dont seem to question this aspect of Muhammads life?

In fact talking to Angels and/or God in any day and age seems a less likely than a blind man commiting murder?



[edit on 6/12/07 by Grenade]

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by Grenade
So Western cultures have to adapt to cater for the Muslim faith yet Muslim's have no duty to adapt or cater for Western culture? You realise the hypocricy in that statement?

You do realise, all these things they would already do for people under the right circumstances?

They aren't changing for Muslims, they are doing it out of simple respect. How hard is it to not shake a womans hand if she's in full Islamic dress?

Western World will collapse because of this! Ahhh noooo!

How hard is it not to become a knife weilding maniac or become offended because we call a teddy Muhammad?

Originally posted by Grenade
reply to post by Odium

 

Well it seems more logical than talking to Angels and speaking the word of God. Yet you dont seem to question this aspect of Muhammads life?

I like how you avoid the question.

I question the authenticity of the hadith to be honest. If you bothered to do a bit of research you'll find out that:
A) Not all Muslims believe this hadith and thus it is next to pointless to debate it when talking about Islam as a whole and not smaller aspects of it.
B) The person who wrote this list of hadiths even says in the hadith that not all of them are accurate and he couldn't validate all his sources.

You do realise there are over 50,000 hadith? Not all of them are accepted by any group.

Why don't you instead find aspects of the Qur'an to bring into question?

I can't comment on Sharia law, as I'm not well-versed in it. I can comment on this bit, though:

Originally posted by Grenade
These include provisions that allow men several wives and that enshrine, in law, the inferiority of women.

It's a misconception by both Muslims and non-Muslims alike that the provision to take on several wives show the 'inferior status' of women. It was initially to help women, back in the day, when most women were dependant on their husbands for income -- that's why the Prophet took widows as his wife.

These days however I see this provision being abused, though. Some men take up a second wife and so on because they're just plain horny, and that's not right.

Originally posted by Grenade
How hard is it not to become a knife weilding maniac or become offended because we call a teddy Muhammad?

It's also pretty easy to:
Not assault someone.
Not rape someone.
Not commit murder.

That happens enough in our own society. I'd much rather someone said:
"That was out of order, you should respect our belief system" then someone who goes around commiting rape.

Just me though?

Originally posted by Beachcoma
I can't comment on Sharia law, as I'm not well-versed in it. I can comment on this bit, though:

Originally posted by Grenade
These include provisions that allow men several wives and that enshrine, in law, the inferiority of women.

It's a misconception by both Muslims and non-Muslims alike that the provision to take on several wives show the 'inferior status' of women. It was initially to help women, back in the day, when most women were dependant on their husbands for income -- that's why the Prophet took widows as his wife.

Actually those 2 points are seperate, not only are men allowed multiple wives but also provisions in shariah law that enshrine the inferiority of women. Ill find examples for you however i think its pretty clear a muslim woman doesnt have equal rights to a Muslim man in Sharia law.

Originally posted by Grenade
In fact talking to Angels and/or God in any day and age seems a less likely than a blind man commiting murder?

You sure about that?

There are what 6 billion people in the World.
1 Billionish Muslims.
1 Billionish Christians.

In fact, I do believe over half of the Worlds population believe in God.

You also said in the previous thread you are agnostic? Thus you also believe in God. You also avoid the fact of what the blind man did. He didn't just commit murder, he managed to find the woman, inside her own house, without disturbing anyone inside the house, move a child as it was suckling on her without disturbing the child and then strike at her heart.

Oh yeah, that seems very logical.

reply to post by Odium



I can and do respect the right of a Muslim to believe in whatever he/she wants. I am also not a rapist or murderer. However i see constantly my fellow citizens being threatened with death for being naive toward a religion which lets be honest is barbaric.

To cut off a hungry mans hand for stealing a loaf of bread in todays world. Come on man, is there really that much of a bread shortage in Islamic countries? And these extreme punishments dont seem to stop or deter rape and murder in Muslim countries? Or else women wouldnt be punished for being raped?

EDIT for spelling

[edit on 6/12/07 by Grenade]

Originally posted by Odium

Originally posted by Grenade
In fact talking to Angels and/or God in any day and age seems a less likely than a blind man commiting murder?

You sure about that?

There are what 6 billion people in the World.
1 Billionish Muslims.
1 Billionish Christians.

In fact, I do believe over half of the Worlds population believe in God.

You also said in the previous thread you are agnostic? Thus you also believe in God. You also avoid the fact of what the blind man did. He didn't just commit murder, he managed to find the woman, inside her own house, without disturbing anyone inside the house, move a child as it was suckling on her without disturbing the child and then strike at her heart.

Oh yeah, that seems very logical.

There is a difference from believing in God and actually speaking with him. Sure i ask God for the odd favour now and again but ive yet to have a return mail straight from an Angel's mouth. Do the 2 billion combined muslims and christians actually believe they are Prophets?

I have also yet to see any sources which contradict the account of SARIYYAH OF UMAYR IBN ADI. Can you please research this and return with one?

[edit on 6/12/07 by Grenade]

reply to post by Grenade



that depends on where your Muslim lives. My husband's sister is married to a Muslim...she changed her name, converted her religion, but she still wears the pants in the family.

there is a major difference in Muslim culture depending on what part of the world the muslim is in. To generalize and say all Muslims follow strict Sharia Law or word from the Koran is like saying all Jews are Orthodox Jews.

Reply to Grenade

To cut off a hungry mans hand for stealing a loaf of bread in todays world.

If he’s hungry than he should earn for it and not steal it. And if he knows there is Sharia law where he lives than he should also know that his hands will be gone if he gets caught.

reply to post by kangjia57

Well im sorry but that kind of opinion is exactly the kind of thing that makes me think Muslim influence in the Western world is a negative influence.

I read an article that said 40% of UK Muslim's believe we should convert to Sharia law. So 40% of Muslims think shoplifters hands should be removed. Im sorry but that is barbaric and based on ancient laws which no longer apply to todays world. I for one do not want to see the day in this country when we have to face that kind of punishment. I dont think personally any human being should have to put up with that.

EDIT for grammar (probably still not very good but at least i try)

[edit on 6/12/07 by Grenade]

Reply to Grenade

Im sorry but that is barbaric and based on ancient laws which no longer apply to todays world

Islam is modern and has always been modern. For Muslims Islam is not ancient and the teachings and rulings are PERFECT.If they aint got problem with it,than why do you keep crying about it?

Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Grenade

Im sorry but that is barbaric and based on ancient laws which no longer apply to todays world

Islam is modern and has always been modern. For Muslims Islam is not ancient and the teachings and rulings are PERFECT.If they aint got problem with it,than why do you keep crying about it?

So something 1500 years old is modern? Please for all the defenders of Islam out there do not tell me you think it is perfect? I dont think i can take it. Nothing is perfect!