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Muhammad - Prophet or Profiteer of God?

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posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 06:10 AM
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Reply to 27jd

Matey why is it which ever thread I debate in, you come and spoil the whole debate?

I think we should make another thread where people like you can come and quarrel with me. We will call it the QUARREL THREAD! I guess we can also have a good laugh in that aswel.

You are really good at derailing the thread matey!Well done.




posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 06:17 AM
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Reply to gs001

I'm curious why westen countries don't ban the emigration of Muslim? I don't think that's racism, but to defend your people from a dangerous ideology.

The West doesn’t ban Muslims because they don’t practice their ideology in West matey! The ideology only applies in Muslims countries with Sharia law. And Muslims living in the West follow the laws and rules of the West because that’s what Islam states for where a Muslim lives.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 06:42 AM
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Light Of Mustafa.....where have i heard that moniker before. Are you the guy on Bismikaallahumma (something) forum?
If it is you, and it seems like you, then i have to say that you are the worst type of muslim. You don't study your religion properly, you quote haidth much, MUCH more than Quran and you (therefore) have some extraordinarily strange ideas about religion.

I am trying to think if it was you who said all western women are trash (or something similar)...which prompted me to reply on one of those islamic forums.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 06:57 AM
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Reply to geek101

Light Of Mustafa.....where have i heard that moniker before. Are you the guy on Bismikaallahumma (something) forum?

Nope I am not him! Really don’t know who your on about matey.

If it is you, and it seems like you, then i have to say that you are the worst type of muslim. You don't study your religion properly, you quote haidth much, MUCH more than Quran and you (therefore) have some extraordinarily strange ideas about religion.

I am not him soo all that BS above doesn’t apply to me matey!
I have certainly don’t have a lot of knowledge but I am learning matey!In this forum we are talking about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) so I will obviously talk about what he said matey.And I also use quotes from the Quran but I will only use them where it is relevant.

I am trying to think if it was you who said all western women are trash (or something similar)...which prompted me to reply on one of those islamic forums.

I am not him soo all that BS above doesn’t apply to me matey!
According to me Western women can do what they want, because it’s their country and it gives them their freedom.I respect them for their way of their life.

If i say something wrong about Islam than please stop me matey!



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 07:00 AM
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reply to post by kangjia57
 


fair enough....i apologise. The Light Of Mustafa thing jumped out at me, thats all....my bad


still think your views on punishments on homosexuals is pretty messed up though.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 07:25 AM
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Reply to geek101

still think your views on punishments on homosexuals is pretty messed up though.

Well I am Just following the Sharia law!I agree that I don’t have evidence to prove what punishment the Sharia law states for homosexuality. But if you look at the punishment for adultery than it would kind of make sense that the punishment for homosexuality would certainly be the harshest.

Unless you prove me with evidence from Quran or hadith that i am worng?



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 07:57 AM
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Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to geek101

still think your views on punishments on homosexuals is pretty messed up though.

Well I am Just following the Sharia law!I agree that I don’t have evidence to prove what punishment the Sharia law states for homosexuality. But if you look at the punishment for adultery than it would kind of make sense that the punishment for homosexuality would certainly be the harshest.

Unless you prove me with evidence from Quran or hadith that i am worng?



Well, here's a starter.....what do YOU believe the punishment for adultery is?



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:06 AM
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Reply to geek101

Well, here's a starter.....what do YOU believe the punishment for adultery is?

The punishment for adultery is burying the person alive under the ground and leave his head on top of the pit. The public than picks up stones and stones their heads till they die.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to geek101

Well, here's a starter.....what do YOU believe the punishment for adultery is?

The punishment for adultery is burying the person alive under the ground and leave his head on top of the pit. The public than picks up stones and stones their heads till they die.


no, it's not. Not if you are following GODS law.:

"The woman and man guilty of adultery, flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter PRESCRIBED by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment" (Quran 24:2)


whose law are you following? or as God puts it:

"Such are the Ayaat of Allah, which We rehearse to you in truth: then in what HADEETH will they believe besides Allah and His Ayaat? "(Quran 45:6).


i always say Muslims would be far better off if they ONLY followed Qur'an.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:10 AM
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reply to post by geek101
 


Hey geek!

I remember you being a pretty outspoken critic of the Hadith, so you'll find the 'stoning' answer unacceptable.

In this case, though, I agree with you. The Quran very clearly states that the punishment for public adultery (with at least 4 witnesses) is lashes. There is a Hadith where stoning was used (although I don't think there was anything about them being buried halfway into the ground), but those were special circumstances (The Jews came to Muhammad insisting that the girl be punished in the normal Jewish way). I believe that the punishment was reduced to lashing, so the stoning thing is finished now.

Many schools of thought disagree with me. They give all sorts of weird justifications, which I personally believe to be nonsense (one example being that stoning is for married adulterers, and lashes for those who were not married).

[edit on 8-12-2007 by babloyi]



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:14 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Hi there :-)

yes, tis true, i don't like the hadith very much. I just never got the point of basically saying....hey, Gods law isn't enough, let's change it/make it better etc. And in the case of stoning, it isn't mentioned in the Quran as punishment for anything. Like i said, Muslims would be more at peace with themselves (and the world) if they simply followed the word of God.

But what do i know eh?



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:20 AM
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Reply to geek101

The punishment for adultery, for both males and females, has two categories: Adultery committed by an unmarried person or a married person. This distinction becomes necessary because the punishment varies for both. Punishment of adultery for an unmarried person is 100 strokes of lashes. (Qur’aan - Chapter 24 verse 2)

Punishment of adultery for a married person is stoning to death, if he/she is; a) A free person (not a slave), b) Sane, c) Physically mature, d) Muslim, e) Married, f) Had intimacy with his spouse. (Hidaaya vol.2 pg.507; Ilmiyyah)

This punishment was unanimously upheld by all the Islamic Jurists based on the order and practice by Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him). (Sahih Bukhari vol.2 pg.1002; Qadeemi)

Hadrat Umar (Radiallahanhu) in his reign as Caliph recalled that "God sent Muhammad and sent down the Scripture to him. Part of what he sent down was the passage on stoning, we read it, we were taught it, and we heeded it. The apostle stoned and we stoned them after him. I fear that in time to come men will say that they find no mention of stoning in God's book and thereby go astray in neglecting an ordinance which God has sent down. Verily stoning in the book of God is a penalty laid on married men and women who commit adultery."'' (Ibn Ishaq, Sirat Rasulullah, tr. Guillaume, p. 684) (Also, Sahih Bukhari 93.21, Muslim, Hudud 1691, Tirmizi, Hudud 8.1431, Abu Dawud 41.1, Itkan 2.34)



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:23 AM
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reply to post by kangjia57
 


do you see how you had to resort to hadith to find the punishment of stoning to death?
Do you not think God would have put it in the Quran had it been the right thing to do?
And by the way, how do you explain this then?:

“O women of the prophet! Whoever, of you commits an open Fahish (fornication or adultery) act, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this is easy to Allah.”(Quraan 33:30)

pray tell...how would you have stoned a wife of the Prophet double????



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:27 AM
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reply to post by geek101
 


I know you probably won't accept this argument, but many things of the Quran do not make sense without the Hadith. The example of salat (which you have answered before, but just go along for a bit) is an obvious one. You might say that since the Quran gives no details on how to do it, it can be done however you like. But this is not true. The Quran mentions praying in congregation, praying certain times of the day, praying in certain positions. If we did not have the Hadith, we'd be pretty lost as to how it is done.

The simplest way of verifying a Hadith (after checking it's authenticity according to scholars) is to see if the Quran contradicts it. If there is no mention of such a thing in the Quran, but it still seems weird or nonsensical, then it can also be rejected (in fact, the Prophet said that use of our own reasoning was a gift, not to be left useless).



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:35 AM
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Reply to geek101

do you see how you had to resort to hadith to find the punishment of stoning to death?
Do you not think God would have put it in the Quran had it been the right thing to do?
And by the way, how do you explain this then?:

The Angel Gabriel visited the Muhammad many times over a period of twenty-three years. Gabriel taught Muhammad the verses and he instructed his scribes to record them. All the revealed verses are compiled in the Qur'an. The Prophet's sayings and actions are recorded separately in collections known as Hadith. Muslims believe that Muhammad was a messenger of Allah (Arabic for The One and Only God) and last of the prophets sent by Allah to guide man to the right path.

The Prophet's mission was to restore the worship of the One True God, the creator and sustainer of the universe, as taught by Prophet Abraham and all Prophets of God, and to demonstrate the laws of moral, ethical, legal, and social conduct.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by geek101
 


I know you probably won't accept this argument, but many things of the Quran do not make sense without the Hadith. The example of salat (which you have answered before, but just go along for a bit) is an obvious one. You might say that since the Quran gives no details on how to do it, it can be done however you like. But this is not true. The Quran mentions praying in congregation, praying certain times of the day, praying in certain positions. If we did not have the Hadith, we'd be pretty lost as to how it is done.

The simplest way of verifying a Hadith (after checking it's authenticity according to scholars) is to see if the Quran contradicts it. If there is no mention of such a thing in the Quran, but it still seems weird or nonsensical, then it can also be rejected (in fact, the Prophet said that use of our own reasoning was a gift, not to be left useless).



I actually somewhat agree with you. Salat is a huge problem to traditional Sunnis though because they are not seeing what they expect to, when they look in the Qur'an. But if that's the way one wants to pray, so be it. I don't have a problem with that. But there IS in the Quran, hints about salat, such as what should be said at the end of prayer. And there is also mentioned many times, that your prayer should be devoted to God alone.

So my main problem with the traditional prayer is that you say at some point:

"peace be on you Muhammad"

in which case i would say....why are you addressing Muhammad when he is dead?

Anyway, the rest of your post is ok too...again i agree, there is wisdom to be found in the hadith, like there is wisdom in a lot of books, but when it becomes law OVER the Quran, then i have a problem with it.
And i think it was you who i discussed such things like zakat with, and ablutions....and i said that in the Quran,there is a perfectly good way of doing these things. But hadith changes it.

But you are spot on when you say to use your reasoning. The idea that God would give us a mind to use and then forbid that we use it for things like this, puzzles me. But some Muslims think that it is haram to question anything in the hadith.
I honestly think that most things in Quran are simple and clear. Punishments certainly are. What is forbidden and allowed certainly is. And the danger is that once you start trying to explain it from man made sayings....it becomes immensely twisted and perverted to the point that things like naming a teddy bear Muhammad becomes blasphemous.

And things like this are further proof of how alot of Muslims are placing Muhammad higher than he should be. From a religious standpoint....dangerously so.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to geek101

The Angel Gabriel visited the Muhammad many times over a period of twenty-three years. Gabriel taught Muhammad the verses and he instructed his scribes to record them. All the revealed verses are compiled in the Qur'an. The Prophet's sayings and actions are recorded separately in collections known as Hadith. Muslims believe that Muhammad was a messenger of Allah (Arabic for The One and Only God) and last of the prophets sent by Allah to guide man to the right path.


i know this. But you didn't answer my question. If the prescribed punishment for adultery is stoning to death:

a)....why is it not in the Quran?

b)....how could Muhammads wives be subjected to DOUBLE the punishment?



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:45 AM
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geek101

You sound like you are a wahabi,Follower of Abdul Wahab.

I am a Sunni and i follow the Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:53 AM
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Reply to Geek101

The Prophet's mission was to restore the worship of the One True God, the creator and sustainer of the universe, as taught by Prophet Abraham and all Prophets of God, and to demonstrate the laws of moral, ethical, legal, and social conduct.

Both your questions have been answered in the above paragraph matey!
Do you believe in the above paragraph?

Because i am a Sunni and to me Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) isnt dead,he has just left this world.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 08:55 AM
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reply to post by kangjia57
 


No i'm not a wahhabi. Dont they follow the sunnah too?

Your description of what the Prophets job was, is a bit off too....where did you get all that from. And no, it didn't answer my question.
If God told you that the punishment was one thing and you do another, isn't that you disobeying God?
More to the point, do you think Muhammad would have disobeyed God?
Of course not, so i would have to conclude that that particular hadith is a load of crock.



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