Straw Poll Canceled: Too Many Ron Paul Supporters

reply to post by Extralien


This isn't too surprising. What the American president does effects the world. I think the world is more against our leaders than they are the people of America.

Every time I see Ron Paul the theme from the Benny Hill show runs through my head. Just like when I see the troofers.

reply to post by dirtonwater


That's OK. Every time I see Obama/Hillary/Goulliani the theme from Night of the Living Dead runs through mine. And I feel the same way about the troofers on the "official" 9/11 Commission.

the day people stop identifying with republican, democrat, liberal....is the day when we'll have a fair election.

I am simply amazed that there are people posting on the thread attempting to legitimize or marginalize what occurred at this event. Now I realize that straw polls are not the end all, be all of elections, but the premise, as put forth by other people, is for the GOP (Or whoever sponsors the event) to get a guage on the party's sentiment toward the candidates. Now, if that were truly the case, the straw poll would be conducted in a fair and impartial manner. However, I believe the contention that I and many others have is that the premise is not supported by the execution.

Let's look at this... The GOP purports to put forth a poll in which the public can cast votes for the candidates which is representative of the public's sentiment regarding such candidates. However, it is apparent from the onset that this is a Fred Thompson event so it should have been couched as a Fred Thompson event. The real problem reveales itself when the intentions are revealed - that they were attempting to present a highly biased event as being a true representation of greater voter sentiment - it is not! As a result, they were hoping to take to the mainstream media that voters at this event had overwhelmingly voted for Fred Thompson so he must trly be the choice of the people.

When it became obvious that this wasn't going to occur, they canceled the event to avoid having the news leaked that Ron Paul (Once again!) had trounced the entire field of candidates. Did they refund the money or did it still go directly into Fred's coffers?

This whole event was disingenuous from the very start and was designed to give a false impression. THAT is what people should be enraged about. The very fact politics has become nothing more than smoke and mirrors, subtle manipulations and outright lies! I am glad, however, that this was uncovered and has helped to mobilize even more Paul voters!

reply to post by kozmo


I agree, and starred you for saying that. The trouble is, those blinded to the party path, dare not admit this as fact. Most of them have spent years being blindly obedient to whatever was laid out.

If these "followers" open their eyes now, then they have to admit, at least to themselves, that they have been played. Many find it easier to deny the obvious than to face the loss of self esteem that would come from honesty.

My goodness, aren't some of you sensitive; or maybe it's my fault for using the term "poll loading". If so, I apologize. I didn't mean that Ron Paul supporters were necessarily doing anything untoward. I was simply making the point, that while the enthusiasm of Representative Paul's supporters is to be admired, that sometimes their zealotry may step over the line, and turn off other voters.

That's for another thread though; my argument for this one still remains the same.

The fact is, that while Ron Paul does indeed have a large, highly energized base, the percentage of over all voters that that represents, is still small. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it's my understanding, and supported by this page at Electionpolls.com, that in most national and state polls, (again, grand conspiracies aside) Ron Paul hovers around one to three percent, with his highest showing being about 7 percent in Nevada.

As I said before, straw polls are more of a pep rally than an actual poll. They are usually set up by the core constituents of a political party to raise money for the party's upcoming campaign and to allow its constituents to express their support for a candidate. They are NOT true polls to determine who the local chapter of a party will support. The primary elections do that, and the local chapters support whomever is elected as their party's representative for the general election. Straw polls are usually set up with the understanding that no one candidate's supporters are going to make a really large get out the vote effort for the straw poll, and that most of the voters who will vote in that poll will be the tried and true party core. Thus, Ron Paul supporters, many of whom have taken no real part in the party's efforts before, turning out en masse for a straw poll such as this, kind of subverts the intent if not the actual purpose of the poll.

Now, can one make the argument that the straw poll in question should have been allowed to go on, with the understanding that the results would be completely meaningless as to the true level of support amongst the party's constituents in that area? Absolutely. Could this situation been handled better? Definitely. However, one should still be able to see the side of the event's organizers. And, I must say that without more information on the specifics of this event, most of the arguments here, on both sides(mine included), are merely conjecture.

While I respect Ron Paul, I vehemently disagree with some of his ideas for America and thus do not support him as the Republican nominee. That being said, if he were to get the Republican nomination I would support him vigorously in the general election over ANY Democratic nominee.

Spacedoubt: I hope I made it clearer above that I didn't mean "poll loading" to mean that Ron Paul supporters where underhandedly loading the polls with votes for their candidate. I am aware of the "poll loading" incident which you are referring to, and I believe that that was a completely irresponsible and reprehensible reaction to the get out the vote efforts of the Ron Paul supporters at that straw poll. I further believe that the straw poll system itself needs to be changed or simply gotten rid off all together.

Turbokid: Again, I apologize if you took offense to my use of the term "poll loading". However, there is obviously ample evidence that Ron Paul supporters do disproportionately show up to and/or participate in any and every poll available, and it is this that I meant by "poll loading". As I stated above, the scientific, state and national polls, clearly show that the percentage of voters who support Ron Paul is still small. Thus while the number of those supporters may in fact be large, in all relativity they are still a small percentage. Thus your contention that Ron Paul is "actully(sic) the candidate with the most support?" is clearly wrong. As to your contention that this straw poll was loaded in favor of Fred Thompson; while that may be the case, there surely isn't enough information provided by the video to imply that.

Kozmo: I disagree that this straw poll was presented as a true representation of the "public's" sentiments of the candidates. Those who are familiar with straw polls know that they are almost always attended primarily by the party's core constituents; the people who work for the party year in and year out; the folks who work for their party's nominees in every election cycle. This year is different, since for the first time, there is a candidate who's supporters turn out at every chance to support him. And as I alluded to earlier, a lot of the people who have supported the Republican party for years, are miffed that suddenly their usual semi-private conferences, straw polls and activities are being swamped by a relatively small number of first time activists who support a relatively unpopular candidate. What this says about the political process in the United States, and the usual lack of interest in that process I'll leave for another thread, but it should suffice to say that there was nothing "disingenuous" about the straw poll to begin with. Just because most people are clueless about the political process, doesn't mean that those who are involved with it are being sneaky or underhanded.


Again, just my $.02

-Cypher


[edit on 6-12-2007 by Cypher]

[edit on 6-12-2007 by Cypher]

I just did a real fast scan of this thread to see if anyone mentioned this yet and didnt see it. If someone did im sorry. But the news actually did a story on it!

watch
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www.youtube.com...

The Party system is the bane of America, and anywhere else it's dirty premises extend. LOYALTY is to be reserved exclusively for the Constitution, Family, Country, God and any other entity that represents bedrock values and close support. political parties are awful remnants of the era of backroom smoke filled meetings where the winners were decided far in advance for concessions of various types..same thing happens today, but with a more dignified flair.

NO one owes any loyalty to a political entity whatsoever, and the fact that some people vote along ' party lines ' for decades says it all: irresponsible voting is a danger to our nation. Uneducated voters casting a vote for a party and not a person, is crazy. It is all propaganda and hoopla...just watch a convention: Flag waving plump and bejeweled ladies with big hair jumping up and down as the ' leader ' comes into the hall: The frenzy of comaraderie as like minded others jump and clap and cry and scream the promises of a winning day at the polls.

Local political power gets the ego driven and corrupt bold enough to enter regional and then state and then national politics..it all starts at a local level..UNLESS you happen to be rich and connected, like a Bush, and then you can be made a Governor or such quite easily..the PARTY takes care of what the voters will do: It tells them WHO to vote for!! It can deliver votes!! this is common and accepted as a way to sustain our democracy..sickening, isn't it? Individuals should vote for other individuals based upon their record and their promises.

Nothing else is right or fair. If you vote for a person, then that person can be held accountable if they fail to perform..but if you vote for a PARTY< then you are at a loss to do anything but keep clinging to the reigns of a horse galloping over a cliff: Too accustomed to relying on the horse to get off, and too scared to let go..so over the cliff we all go!! That is where America is headed right now: Down the tubes, and any rational observer can see it. We will soon be very much a second world, and then 3rd world nation..the middle class is dissappearing RIGHT NOW and has been since the NAFTA treachery of Clinton and Bush, and the other CAFTA and NAU boondoggles that are meant to level the playing field worldwide and take us down a number of notches and elevate the others just very slightly.

Ron Paul may not be perfect..who is? He may not have all the answers, but I guarantee you that he is the ONLY candidate who can save America from a police stae/fascist society being a reality in ten years. The Bush/Cheney crime cabal is OBVIOUSLY so guilty of massive crimes, including war crimes and crimes against humanity, that the fact that they are not in shackles headed to the Hague is a sure sign that the American public is grossly uneducated about the matters that count,that the media is totally controlled and unwilling to disclose the truth, and the average American simply cannot comprehend a state of affairs so terrible and so murderous and evil the men who ' lead ' us; They would rather bury their heads in the sports page than contemplate the startling realities that are swirling around us.

If Ron Paul does not get ' Wellstone'd ' before the election, and I pray he does not, he may very well be the upset man..the guy who comes from the groundswell of public disgust and inability to do anything about rising prices all around and no more money coming in. Foreclosures are getting rampant..the homeless middle class will be the ones either put in the Halliburton camps for FEMA, or fighting from behind the front lines trying to get America back from the Nazi inspired Prescott Bush grand vision for a fascist state with an all powerful corporate structure and total control of the people. That is their grand scheme, and the fact that they could pull 9-11 off and 6 years later still be laughing in the faaces of the dead victims and gloating over their ' successful mission ' says a lot.

I really don't understand how people can say Ron Paul doesn't have enough support to win. If you pay attention just to MSM polls yeah, but did you know most of those polls are of people who voted Republican in the last election and most of them don't even use the internet so essentially they are a minority. If you look through some poll's results of the questions they ask you'll see that. They aren't fair and they don't show what the real majority of people want for this country.

If you want to see how much support Ron Paul really has just look at this:

svpvril.com...

And this:

www.ronpaul2008.com...

He beats out all other candidates, why? Because his supporters actually get off their butts and do stuff to support him. $4.2 million dollars raised in one day! That's a record! If you can't see that he DOES have the support to win the election then you must be in some kind of denial.

Originally posted by kozmo
However, it is apparent from the onset that this is a Fred Thompson event so it should have been couched as a Fred Thompson event.

And perhaps there is the rub. The fact is, Ron Paul has an active and engaged support base and they actually GO to these kinds of events. To get into a straw poll event you have to purchase a ticket. If the mainstream media choice candidtaes held these events as specific candidate events they'd raise maybe, $19 and change. So they couch it as a straw poll, several hundred Ron Paul supporters show up, buy tickets and then they shut-down or bury the poll. Brilliant.

Face it. No matter what your leaning, the prevailing system is cancerous. Evey major politician from both parties has been bought and paid for. Either we ALL support someone that isn't on big-business' payroll or we are going to get eight more years of national implosion.

www.americanthinker.com...

This article is a good indication on why Ron Paul is going nowhere fast.

Originally posted by dirtonwater

www.americanthinker.com...

This article is a good indication on why Ron Paul is going nowhere fast.

what horrible reasoning! He's going nowhere fast because he takes contributions from Neo Nazis? Perhaps instead of supporting their hate, he's supporting their freedom of speech. Ever think about that?

reply to post by dirtonwater


I agree that these arenot people I would invite home to meet the wife and kids. I grant you that they are, from what I can see, not really representitive of American values.

BUT,

They are American citizens, and therefore entittled to support whomever they choose. Or has a certain minority already made a list of which people can and cannot be a part of the political process in this nation? Have you and your ilk made a list of standards?

There are people from every walk of life supporting the other candidates. People that want California to go back to Mexico, people that want gays "reeducated", people that advocate the bombing and killing of abortion doctors. Yet you, in your anger and hopelessness, focus on this.

EVERYONE, regardless of what they think, believe, worship, or have sex with, has a right to support whomever they please. And any person wanting to be president ought to recognize that variety that is America, and represent those people to the best of his ability.

Ron Paul isn't in the passing judgement business. It appears you are.

I am absolutly amazed at how easy it was for the bankers to take control of America, including it's military, media ectt.......

We have been distracted with side issues for so long now and have become so polarized the bankers can pretty much run all the other business here in America while we fight each other. And they are doing just that right now.

We the people are no longer calling the shots here in America. If the American people had thier way there would be no soldiers in Iraq. If the American people were being listened to right now there would be no missles going up in Eastern Europe. If the American people had a voice in Washington today there would be health coverage for all who couldn't afford it. And don't you dare tell me that there is no money while pallet loads of cash are being shipped overseas.

This is NOT a Democratic thing or a Republican thing. This is something EVIL and it has been flourishing in the shadows of our Democracy for the last 50+ years.

The only hope I see is that lots of people are starting to talk about it and are WAKING UP so to speak. I just hope were not to late.

Originally posted by dirtonwater

Getting rid of taxes would not give everyone 1/3 more income. Get informed.

That depends entirely on which taxes ( including gas, property, general energy, income, sales etc) are eliminated.

Magically everyone would have a bunch more money ?

Did you think the money would disappear into thin air?

There is a ridulous amout of overspending in the govenrment and I believe this has to be corrected.

Something we can agree on then!

If everyone had more money all of the sudden, basic supply and demand econmics would kick in and inflation would quickly make a correction. The solution is not that simple.

Inflation happens whenever the money is introduced into a given 'confined' ( which it isn't anymore) economy faster than the volume of goods increases leading to more 'notes' being available and people thus being willing to give more of them for a given product due to the competition factor.

That is obviously not the explanation a actual economist would employ but it's pretty much what they say when they try to explain it to people like 'us'. Not that main stream economist will talk about this often ( and thus give up the game) but that's how it works!

The interesting aspect of all of this is that most of the new money supply tends to end up the hands of those already have too much leaving the rest of us with the inflationary pressure and a very small increase in the physical ( M1 presuming the US system) money supply!

In my opinion, Ron Paul supporters believe in sweeping immediate changes with magical results.

Did you do some kind of poll?

It's not that simple. The vast majority people realize this, which is why support for Ron Paul will remain in the very small minority.

The vast majority of Americans are far too well fooled/misdirect/misinformed to vote for someone as seemingly radical as Ron Paul. Sure i can find many reasons to question what world wide economic impact his 'spending within means' will have but since i life in the 'rest' of the world that's far better than standing a chance of getting bombed and invaded or having my country become a target for the CIA and US currency speculators.

Stellar

Originally posted by dirtonwater

www.americanthinker.com...

This article is a good indication on why Ron Paul is going nowhere fast.

It amazes me that people will stoop to the lowest depths of human indignity and slander in order to poison the good name of Dr. Paul. He is the only candidate who shows any civility toward his opposition, refusing to stoop down to the mud slingers level of stupidity, instead using his platform and the actual issues at hand to state his case.

Didn't it strike anyone as odd that during the recent CNN debate, the small video segments afforded to each candidate were used again and again to do nothing but shovel dirt and bad mouth the opposition on a personal level.

Fred Thompson's entire video was nothing more than a personal attack against the other candidates!! Ron Paul has class, he has conviction, and he let's his policies speak for themselves.

In a way, web articles like the one above make me laugh, because it is a clear sign of desperation on the part of those who know that the grass roots movement and the American people are no longer a small number of people that can easily be ignored and swept under the rug.

The tables are turning, the support for Paul is growing immensely, and it scares the hell out of the ones who are benefiting most from the f***** up ridiculous two party spend fest that is our U.S. government.

Keep up the smear campaign...it will only serve to bring even more attention and support to Dr. Paul and the true issues, while at the same time proving to the American public what a bunch of back biding, slanderous snakes the two party goon squads are really made of


When all other attempts fail, resort to character assasination, right? Straight from page 2 of the J. Edgar Hoover hand book no doubt.

double post removed

[edit on 12/6/07 by BlackOps719]

Originally posted by yankeerose
This political season the GOP has Ron Paul. In 2000 and 2004 the DEM's had Ralph Nader. If all those Nader votes had gone for the DEM candidate, we would not have lost the elections. (I still think both the elections were rigged by the GOP)

The democratic party received more votes in both elections so Ralph Nader can hardly be blamed for being the best candidate among those running. Both elections were rigged ( massive fraud in many states trough simply removing names for alleged criminal records) with the second one being quite a bit better organized than the first one which required the intervention of the people at FOX to get the message that Bush 'won' out.

I think we should listen to these "fringe" candidates. They obviously have a message that many voters identify with.

So you have never heard of Ralph Nader?

Before I came to ATS, I never heard of Ron Paul. For the first time in my voting life I may actually vote GOP if Ron Paul gets the nomination. I may even vote for him if he runs independent.

I am kinda torn between Ralph's practical approach and Ron Paul's more theoretical/philosophical ' make do on your own, i will deal with the bad guys' ideas. I think both are on the level and are doing what they think best for your liberty but i think the time may have passed where we should reduce the influence of the state machinery that we may still be able to gained trough democratic action and employ protect us against private corporate tyrannies.

My point is that its time to stop supporting a candidate just because they are the "chosen" one. We need to vote for the candidate that we think will do the best job.

I am not sure who claimed this first but i heard Nader say that if you keep voting for the lesser evil you will always end up with evil! This is true and we should all vote our conscience given the alternative...

To do that we need to be open to new ideas, new candidates, and new visions of what we as Americans want for our beautiful country.

And please HURRY!

Stellar

reply to post by SkepticOverlord

from what i read of ron paul and alan keyes ------------i think they would be about as honest/forcefull a leadership team as the republicans could ever hope for-------------but i think the nwo financiers------will fight this tooth and nail---------and by any means to prevent it happening---------so they can continue to call the shots.