It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
Originally posted by Sunsetspawn
Originally posted by The Endtime Warrior
Life is tough, people have opinions and they all stink.
That's right, but I would give anything to press my nose up against Lily Allen's opinion.
Originally posted by spinalremain
example - Have you ever met an Atheist who doesn't advertise the fact that they're Atheist? I haven't. Atheists wear it like a badge.
Originally posted by spinalremain
Here's a myth that you inadvertently reinforced
Only Atheist myth that matters - Atheist are so proud of being Atheist that they must make it the main attraction of themselves whenever they can. It isn't enough to not believe in God or gods. They have a need to discuss it all the time.
example - Have you ever met an Atheist who doesn't advertise the fact that they're Atheist? I haven't. Atheists wear it like a badge.
[edit on 23-8-2010 by spinalremain]
Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
My ONLY question really, in the final analysis is - why are atheists atheists at all, and not agnostic.
Isn't that somewhat of an arrogant and presumptuous conclusion to draw?
As a rational thinking person, at the very least, you would think that agnostic might be a more reasonable position, than atheist, I don't really get that part, it's very confusing.
Originally posted by iamaperson
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
I am a Christian and never thought any of those things.
So perhaps they are not really myths at all.
Also, some things, such as morals coming from God, could be more of a myth about Christians (not Christianity), as I don't think there is anyone who thinks that an atheist does not have morals because they do not believe in God.
Thanks for posting, but the only thing I learned was that there are atheists who think Christians have myths about atheists.
Why focus on a particular religion anyway, as far as I know, atheism is not believing in religion, not not believing in Christianity.
Originally posted by dominicus
1. Funny how you say you don;t like a certain group, then point out their faults, which very well could be attributed to the fallen human condition, the brainwashing/programming of this world and its system of thought, as well as an ego.
2. Irrelevant
3. Morality is ultimately relative. Its just acting within the laws of what modern society wants you to be. More social programming and brainwashing. Plus the way society wants you to be changes. You would be entirely different person were you born in Iraq, or China, or Siberia..
4. You guys might not be a super organized group or anything, but you definitely define yourself as a certain label,
and since there are a small number of you out there, you are lumped into a group.
Sheep-like is also within your context because through the Gov't, taxes, brainwashing, and seeing through the eyes of duality, you are still in the same sheep-like boat as all other humans who will eventually face death, have no control over fate/destiny, and will see the truth on the other side.
5.
Atheists actually know, deep inside, that theres a God, as thats perfectly obvious; they are simply too proud and arrogant to admit the existence of something greater than themselves. Not exactly. You see, the existence of a god is only obvious if youve been brainwashed (either by others, or by your own irrationality) into believing it. We are truly convinced that theres no god, and are not in denial. Really. Im serious.
Back to the whole "belief" deal huh? Belief signifies someone just starting out on a spiritual path who are considered "babies," if that's what you like to use as a representation in contrast to yourselves then cool.
On the other hand we have seasoned veterans who have been at it for quite some time and have experienced God as a direct reality, completely beyond and devoid of belief, but as a true knowingness.
Perhaps one should ask themselves if they haven't been brainwashed into their own current "atheistic" stance.
6. Atheist books?
Been there and done that ....Harrris, Hitchens and a few others.
When I read these books it becomes obvious 1 sided biased speculation and thats it.
You might have read the Bible and other supposedly Holy books ...but just reading them means absolutely nothing.
There is much more to it than that like going within and finding out whats there, studying yourself, studying silence, all in a bid to become master of self or "Self Mastery."
Yes very few can claim that label from both sides, but at least on this side we get help from God,
something you can feel, taste, see, smell, know ...though it requires becoming tuned into like changing the dial on a radio to a different station .....a station that reveals exactly how the radio works, how its powered, and where it came from.
7. Ok ......its just the experience of being human. Everyone has that.
8. I agree life is precious and I wake up daily surprised I'm still here. But inherently as a little kid of 4-6, there was this inner knowing that this existence isn't right. I used to watch other kids play joyfully and carefree, but within me there stirred this incredibly deep philosophical questioning about the nature of existence ...at 5 years old!!!!! Seeing that we die and thats it, the faults of grown ups, the wars, the brainwashing on all sides of the fence, besides some of the other atrocities ....it has been a feeling that we live in a prison ever since being a kid. As a result I ddn't take up any creed to feel secure, but I wanted to directly experience God as a living and knowing truth beyond any thoughts, ideas, beliefs. It happened brother!!!!
Then upon experiences of enlightenments', expanded faculties, new faculties added, more of the brain in use
...it was easy to see how the body in this general state of existence is an extremely limited prison compared to what we are really capable of were people going within and tapping into the Infinite. Oh well.......were just passing thru.
9. its not exactly the belief of suffering itself, but the reality of it. If you have never suffered in any way in your life, then either your a robot, or you will eventually. Death of loved ones, sickness, health, loss of a job, and life's rollorcoaster ride in general. Even if you seem to miss all that, you may suffer a long a drawn out death whenever that happens. Its an inevitability. Ask 100 random people on the street without finding out their creed and you'll find all of them agree that they have suffered in life to some extent. What a ridiculous argument!!!!
10. The things is, humbleness and humility are key factors on most spiritual paths.
I don't exactly know if these are key factors in the life of an average Atheist. Unfortunately, this world programs people to have a certain amount of ego and arrogance. Everyone starts out with alot of these factors!!!
11. We live in a free wold and you are very welcome and free to start a tax-sheltered, un-saving preaching, door to door, donation getting, bad-haircut lexus driving organization.
Its your right to have this here. Just as you see a childs reason being crippled by all this, I see all children who aren't taught about meditation and going within as probably the most crippling to all of faculties regardless of creed.
12. Irrelevant. Everyone is born with a set of appreciation faculties. Whether they are used or not is a whole different story.
13. I once met a man who said he didn't fear death. It was his claim to fame around those parts. You should have seen the fear gripped look on his face when he started having a small heart attack right in front of me after eating his Po'-Boy shrimp fried sandwhich. Its one thing to conceptualize an idea or belief of not having fear about death, but when its at hand, its a completely different story!!!
14. Of course the opposite is true because Atheists are such a small number in the general population. So its only right that a small number f criminals would be atheists. Common sense.
15. I am a theist and I always question everything I have believed, studied, come to know and so forth.
I always look for proof to prove my experiences wrong and have always studied atheism to test out everything I have come against.
So why am I still a theist? Because to me atheism is simply a way of speculatively coming up with interesting and witty ways to go against a certain stance, having not themselves undergone the awesome direct experiences of the Absolute.
These very formulations you have chosen to side with, seem to keep you from further investigation of yourself within, of precepts, and techniques that lead to the direct experiences of the absolute.
If you think you are awed by a rainbow or a beautiful day or a great meal or time spent with a love one, .... the experience of the absolute makes all of that PALE in comparison and then also enhances all of those experiences a hundred thousand fold.
As far as proof of God ....or for him to show himself ...how do you know you are not looking at him already. It is your own mind that labels, filters, and separates everything into relative form. The thought of a rock is not the actual rock. The thought of a rock is just an unreal imaginary representation of that which is already as it is without labels and more real than what you thought about it.
Now take what I just said and see how you filter all of reality with this label maker ...and ask your self again who you think you are and what you think everything is.
Because God is everywhere, in everything, and everything in God.
Infinity itself passing just before you daily, but because we are brainwashed and programmed to take that which we think to be more real than that which already is ....well you get the idea (pun intended)
16. While I will not argue anything "Old Testament", because I'm for theism in general ....I will say that you only think your life is your own....and the thought of "something" is not that "something."
Were your life your own, you would have brought yourself into existence,
you would have remembered that,
were it your own you'd have complete control over all aspects of life, but you don't.
No control over lusts, cravings, thoughts, birth, death, fate, destiny, and I can keep this list going for about 10 more pages if you like.
But of course my last personal favorite. You may choose not to believe in any sort of God, but unfortunately the rest of your life operates on belief. You believe you are so and so, with certain labels, with certain subjectivism, with certain likes/dislikes, that you will wake up tomorrow morning, that nothing will happen on the way to work ....and of course I can keep this list going for about 100 more pages......
The ultimate paradox:
Operating through thought, ideas, concepts, and beliefs. Yet we have some amongst who say there is place beyond where truth of God is known directly without these former filters.
All in good fun Ol' chap!!!
This isn't an application to all groups. Some Christians think that all atheists just hate Christians. I personally don't hate religious people because they're religious, though there are certain religious people I have a distaste for for other reasons.
It actually is relevant. Some people think atheists are simply those who were Christian and then had a bad experience so they stopped out of spite or some other reason. This is an accusation of intellectual dishonesty.
Agreed. But certain Christians claim that morality comes from God, therefore is absolute, and is therefore absent from atheists.
I'm sorry, but which label is that? I'm aware of many different 'varieties' of atheists.
A small number? In some nations we're up to 40%! In other nations, like the USA, we number somewhere over 10%! Worldwide we are 12+% of the population. That is far from a small group.
Well, that's your opinion. But I don't know what 'brainwashing' you're speaking of, I don't know how the government makes me a sheep, and I don't know how I'm seeing things as a duality. Thanks for attributing things that aren't true about me to me.
Preemptive comment, I don't see how this has anything to do with the #5 I listed:
No, belief is a reality claim. We contrast ourselves with unbased reality claims. Instead of making a counter-reality claim to theists, we choose to not make a reality claim and not accept those that lack evidence.
Really? Well, I agree that there are possibly millions upon millions out there that agree with you...and I'm also going to have to point out that they mostly disagree with each other on the concept. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Sikhs, etc...they all have people who claim to have experienced their deity(ies) as a direct reality, yet they all contradict each other.
Of course, there's also the fact that subjective experience is no basis for the acceptance of reality claims.
No, I looked into all religions, attempted to commune with those religions openly and fully, spent some time as a Buddhist, then realized that I'm an atheist. I took the only intellectually honest answer to whether or not a deity exists.
#6 deals with the accusation that atheists have read nontheistic material primarily.
Ok, which ones specifically?
How so? I mean, you can make these accusations all you want, but then you can't level at me...oh wait, the next sentence is against how I read the Bible, isn't it?
Reading them, speaking about them with those learned in their study, going back to their original language to get a better understanding (hammered through Hebrew and Greek in the Bible, was a bit difficult to read a book word by word)
All in a bid to...do something that has nothing to do with those religious texts? I'm sorry, but I studied the texts, I didn't study your particular brand of evidenceless woo
No, you cannot get help from a thing whose existence is not evident. I'm not going to say that there isn't a god, but I have no good reason to accept your claims that there is. Thus, any understanding you get with help from your deity? You have to either show that it's from your deity or that it's greater than what you'd get without it.
More woo. If you could feel, taste, see, smell and know (why not hear?) a deity, then it would be measurable scientifically. It would be acknowledged to be part of the realm of scientific study. And this radio station crap? I'm sorry, but I have to call it crap, it's an overextended nonsensical metaphor.
Alright then. I'll take this quick pause to say that, instead of addressing whether or not these things are myth you've gone off topic to attack atheists in one way or another without providing evidence or proof that your premise or the claims you make based upon that premise, are correct.
So your biases were confirmed by your own journey to confirm them? Wow, that's...confirmation bias.
Now, I had a similar experience...not really similar at all actually. When I was 15ish I decided to bother reading a Bible to know my deity better. I chose it to get a better handle on my own religion...and what did I find? A book I could not support. It so shocked me that I resolved to find out the truth. I didn't know what the truth was, and I acknowledged that, so I went and looked at as many religions as I could, studied as many religious writings as I could, talked with as many religious members and leaders as I could...and I found...nothing. Just nothing. But the Buddhists were pretty mellow and were the only ones that acknowledged that they might be wrong. So I decided to stick with that for a while. Then I realized I was using it as a stop-gap to atheism.
What enlightenments? Which expanded faculties? Which new ones? I'm sorry, but what part of your brain were you using that I don't? I''m guessing that's based upon the myth that we only use a portion of our brain (any good neurologist knows what to call that claim).
Or that's just some baseless woo.
No, the argument isn't against suffering. You're either misreading it or refusing to read it properly. The argument is that life isn't suffering, that life can be grand and wonderful and lovely, even with the suffering in it.
Yes, the humble claim to have the absolute truth of the universe, to have expanded and added faculties, to use more of your brain.
And I see that sort of spiritual introspection (which I participated in before) as meaningless. Introspection should be based upon what's really there, not what you wish is there.
Yes, but some people think it's true. How is it irrelevant when there are people, on this very forum as well as in the world, spreading these myths about atheists?
A personal story is not an argument. I don't fear death. I fear not living while I can.
Atheists are about 10% (possibly more) of the American population. They make up less than 1% of the prison population. That's a statistic that is shatteringly different than what it should be. It seems that atheists are less likely to do be sentenced to prison.
Except the basic premise of theism, at least so it would seem
Really? As you don't demonstrate such study.
So you're a theist...because you have a biased attitude towards atheists based upon their attitudes against what you believe... Yeah, that's totally logical.
Define and prove "the absolute."
Ok, you can say that, yet it lends absolutely no credit to your position. Of course, I can make the same claim about scientific understanding of the universe, and I'd actually have a basis for my claims. Think you are awed by a rainbow? Examine the scientific foundations of the phenomenon.
As for the labels. That such speak is what you readily encounter in 1st year philosophy students who have not understood what they study. It shows a most primitive understanding of metaphysics and philosophy of language and mind. The thought of the rock may not be a rock, but the description of that rock allows me to understand what it is.
I know who I am, I know what I am. I've studied extensively into it.
The problem here is that you're trying to implement something along the lines of philosophy without using the main tool of philosophy, reason.
Or we can just say that the universe is everywhere, in everything, and everything is in it. Why throw out arbitrary labels when you're arguing against non-arbitrary ones?
I get the idea quite well, you've got an oddly basic view of philosophy that's allowed you into the new age trap.
I'm sorry, but that is not true. That is actually a non-sequitur. It's a statement where the conclusion doesn't follow from the premise
Again, a non-sequitur. How does ownership over your life mean that you have omnipotence over your reality
And I can give you a clear rebuttal in a few sentences, mainly because Sartre already did it for me.
Our lives are our own for a simple reason: We can choose. Even in the face of contingent circumstances, we always have choices. If I am a man sentenced to die by firing squad in the morning, I still own my life. I own the way I face my executors, I own the way I spend my last night. I own whether I shout my brains out, weep, or decide to scrawl along the walls. It's all up to me, and that is my life.
No, that is not a paradox, that's a baseless claim.
Why the random cockney?
reply to post by iamaperson
Originally posted by iamaperson
reply to post by madnessinmysoul
I am a Christian and never thought any of those things.
You are a reasonable individual then.
So perhaps they are not really myths at all.
Or you possibly never encounter these silly myths. I mean, I've seen these myths perpetuated in public talks. All of those myths have been perpetuated on ATS at some time in the past 30 days, and I could even show you specific examples were I pressed.
Also, some things, such as morals coming from God, could be more of a myth about Christians (not Christianity), as I don't think there is anyone who thinks that an atheist does not have morals because they do not believe in God.
You'd think wrong. I've heard atheists called 'moral eunuchs' by theists. I've heard us called 'evildoers', 'amoral', 'anti-moral', etc.
Thanks for posting, but the only thing I learned was that there are atheists who think Christians have myths about atheists.
Then you have picked up the wrong lesson.
Why focus on a particular religion anyway, as far as I know, atheism is not believing in religion, not not believing in Christianity.
Actually, atheism is not believing in any deity, it is separate from religion. There could be atheistic religion, like many forms of Buddhism.
And we're not focusing on Christianity, Christians just tend to be the theistic folk most encountered by most atheists in the western world, where most of the users from ATS hail from.