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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
I feel offended that you'd call me a racist.
Originally posted by Rasobasi420
My mistake,
You called me a "vile defender of racism".
Originally posted by skibtz
And what do we have here?
Another defender of racism perhaps?
You must feel so proud of yourself.
Maybe you could tell your grand kids one day how you fought valiantly in years gone by for the right to dehumanise people with racist comments.
Oh dear.
Originally posted by melatonin
Eh? Do you not think that prejudice and racism goes a bit beyond keeping the likes of Jesse Jackson off the streets?
I'm starting to see a trend now...
How is studying the neurobiological basis of prejudice problematic?
I consider social categorisation a pretty normal process, we are 'cognitive misers' and tend to group people for simplicity. But this can become a virulant tendency in some.
Of course, we should allow this stuff to happen without any recourse, because apparently even considering the existence of racists and bigots is dehumanising, heh.
I think most killers get the same sentences these days. It's not about elevating people, but about lowering people. Lowering racists and bigots, giving them a similar level of special attention they give particular social groups.
Heh, 'race industry'. Racism was a big problem during the earlier parts of the 20th century, however, legislation did appear to reduce some of the more excessive examples. But, we were still seeing bananas thrown at football palyers in the 1980s. We rarely see that in the UK now. That's super, smashing, great - a good start.
Hasn't solved the issue in total, as we tend to find that bigots and racists channel their negative attitudes other ways, into what can be called 'symbolic racism'. Usually quite easy to spot though...
I don't particularly care whether you think these laws are good or bad. They are for a purpose, and they have been doing their job to a degree. It makes the more embarrassing members of the human race think twice before exhibiting their stupidity in an open fashion.
Originally posted by skibtz
Please don't misquote me.
I called you a 'defender of racism' - as you think people should be allowed to abuse members of the public with racsim if they want to without retribution by the law
I found the thought of fighting for racism 'vile'
Originally posted by blueorder
I defend being offended, no law should elevate actual crimes with the added baggage of possible "thought"
Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Sorry to break it to you, but in the Westminster-derived legal systems of this world both "thought" and "action" are required for a crime to have been committed.
Which is why we have "manslaughter" for when a killing was not premeditated. "Murder" wasn't committed because the killer did not plan for death as the outcome of the action.
This bloke's "thought" was that, in his estimation, being English is lower than being Irish. His action was insulting and assaultive, his thought was racist, making his criminal action racist assault.
So, all those people bleating about Eric Arthur Blair's "Thought Crimes" becoming a reality can take a deep breath and get down off their soapboxes.
Thought crimes have always existed. Whether they are "conspiracy to commit" or "incitement" or "racial abuse".
Not so long ago the majority of peole resident below the Mason-Dixon Line thought it was no crime to murder blacks and their "Yankee" white supporters. Not so long ago Aborigines weren't even Australian citizens and the citizens never gave it a second thought. Not so long ago it was official government policy in Rwanda for "cockroaches" to be exterminated and the Interahamwe thought they were doing their patriotic duty.
I don't think any of these situations are acceptable.
I also don't have a problem with racial vilification laws in a system of free speech. I am a sea of mutually supporting contradictions. I love beer and hate drunks. My bike does 215 and I hate speeders.
My Khmer wife is married to a foreigner, but hates the Vietnamese and Thais. I love her, but I don't indulge her rants. I find them short-sighted, ignorant, historically unsupportable, politically suspect, cheap and xenophobic (well, duh!), all the things I associate with party-supervised education.
Should she be foolish enough to use the word "Yuon" on the streets of Australia, she could well end up in a similar situation to our foolish truckie. We have a fairly simple unwritten rule in Australia: You leave your nationalist/religious baggage at immigration when you check in. This isn't Serbia or Sudan or Iraq or Sri Lanka. You came here to get away from that crap, don't bring it with you.
Unless you happen to see a former camp guard walking down the street. He/she doesn't get to leave their past behind...
Originally posted by blueorder
I'm not sure if you misunderstood my comment- I am saying some people make livings out of perpetuating racial division, and by dehumanising people into racial groups, such as the good ol reverend.
When you come up with terms such as "outgroups" you just reinforce segmentation and divsion, regardless of such erstwhile sounding studies as "neurobiological"
indeed, it is a virulent tendency with those involved in the race industry
again you misunderstand, racists and bigots, be they black, white or asian, will always exist til the last human pops his clogs- the term "dehumanising" was in reference to those who perpetuate the division and segmentation in the race industry.
erm, no they don't- are you from the UK- sentences (due to recent changes in the law) receive longer terms if a judge can assess "thought crime" and bung in a motive of race, religion or sexual orientation- do you need links, because this is actually the case?
Your point is also bogus- we are talking, in this instance about murderers, they are already lowered to the vermin that they are, you then decide to classify some murderers as worse than others because of a thought crime, thereby elevating one victim above another
More contradictions, banana throwing stopped without legislation for thought crimes- they stopped due to people considering it rude- the recent legislation has bugger all to do with it, just more government control.
Spluttered my coffee there "symbolic racism"- do behave, another term invented by people who thrive on racial difference, how ironic. A term also coined to be specifically anti white.
Check out racism in Darfur kiddo, how about you stifle your pretentious waffling and go defend black africans from murderous Arabs, with no bad whitey in sight!
I don't care if you care or not.
You are incredibly stupid in your defence of the law, and here is why- the law will apply to murders, and give higher sentencing to some based on possible "hate" thought crimes. Now, far be it from me to be stating the obvious here, but the vermin have committed murder, that is the salient point, a murdered person, whatever God style attempts we try to employ to read mines for possible "hate" motives.
Originally posted by melatonin
Errm, OK.
So, it's the old rev's problem, nothing to do with him reacting to the situation, heh.
Not at all. We are decribing a phenomena in society. Ir you think this is a cause of the problem, then I think you are way off target.
We have ingroups and outgroups. We know they exist. We can see it in numerous ways. We self-define in this way.
Heh, whatever.
Nothing to do with Tutsi's & Hutu's and genocidal acts. It's caused by the damn scientists, rofl.
If you say so. As an area of social psychology, it is a suitable area for study.
I guess it would be better to just ignore racism and prejudice, heh.
I think that would be fair enough. But most murderers get the normal life sentence.
Yes, we already class some murderers as worse than others. So, not an issue. Context will always be important, whether it be an alcohol-fueled murder, a murder of a child by a parent, a murder of a child by a sexual predator, a murder of passion, a murder of race hate.
We already do this. I'm sorry but if you were murdered whilst on the razz with a group of chavs in a drunken brawl over a can of stella, I will place that of less consequence than a man killing someone solely due to race. Amazingly, I would likely be more bothered by the child being killed by a sexual predator than either.
Oh well. We all have attitudes. So shoot me.
Yah, yah.
It wouldn't be a thought crime. It is a behaviour crime.
What? You mean that these sort of social groups exist? That would be an interesting area to study, rofl.
Whoever said it was just whites who did this?
OK.
Not hate thought crimes, hate behaviour crimes.
You can hold negative attitudes to other races, I won't stop you. You can channel these attitudes into conversations like the one we are having, but if you act on these attitudes in a way that breaks the law, then your behaviour might be censured. Cool.
Originally posted by blueorder
erm no, he is perpetuating the problem and consequently PART of the problem- making a living out of it by perpetuating racial division, and often stoking the flames
never said it was the cause- the cause is human beings and their capacity for stupidity, hatred and bigotry- there are many stupid people out there with stupid thoughts, I just don't think they should be punished for them
"WE" don't, we are individuals
I'm not sure if you are being deliberately evasive- the genocide in Rwanda was down to human nature , hatred and bigotry (without even going into wider political discussions about Rwanda and it's history)
- this evilness within humanity is then fed on by people in the race industry, some are undoutedly genuine in their involvement, others are mere charlatans, who encourage division, victimhood and dehumanisation, and gain personal wealth out of it (again refer Jackson)
NO- a crime is given a heavier sentence if a judge determines a "hate" motive
"we" personally may class some murders above others, we are talking about the law with set tariffs. Murder is murder, if it has been determined to be pre meditated (ie not manslaughter) then life should mean life, end of- justice for all murder victims I say.
I personally spare a particular slot of hate in my heart for those who kill children, but I am talking about legal tarrifs- life meaning life for all murderers (see above)
No, I defend your right to have an attitude
can't seem to connect your response with what I posted- quite simply, once again, banana throwing stopped not due to new legislation but because people on the terraces policed themselves and got fed up with such moronic behaviour (thanks in no small part to most teams having their own black players)
they are not "social" groups, these are racially classified groups- the arabs attacking blacks and vice versa
Quite simply hate laws are an "ass"- I look forward to them being repealed.
Originally posted by blueorder
I had a massive quote ready to reply, and that was only half way through, and Ive had a tough day at work, so cannot be bothered
Suffice to say, agree with some but not all, anyways, good chatting
In the United States, government is broadly forbidden by the First Amendment of the Constitution from restricting speech. Jurists generally understand this to mean that the government cannot regulate the content of speech, but that it can address the harmful effects of speech through laws such as those against defamation or incitement to riot.
Since such laws often apply only to the victimization of specific individuals, some argue that hate speech must be regulated to protect members of groups. Others argue that hate speech limits the free development of political discourse and ought to be regulated, but by voluntaristic communities and not by the state. Still others claim that it is not possible to legislate a boundary between legitimate controversial speech and hate speech in such a way which is just to those with controversial political or social views.
* In the United Kingdom, incitement to racial hatred is an offence under the Public Order Act 1986 with a maximum sentence of up to seven years imprisonment.
* In Germany, Volksverhetzung (incitement of hatred against a minority under certain conditions) is a punishable offense under Section 130 of the Strafgesetzbuch (Germany's criminal code) and can lead to up to five years imprisonment. Volksverhetzung is punishable in Germany even if committed abroad and even if committed by non-German citizens, if only the incitement of hatred takes effect within German territory, e.g. the seditious sentiment was expressed in German writ or speech and made accessible in Germany (German criminal code's Principle of Ubiquity, Section 9 §1 Alt. 3 and 4 of the Strafgesetzbuch).
* In Ireland, the right to free speech is guaranteed under the Constitution (Article 40.6.1.i). However, the Prohibition of Incitement to Hatred Act, proscribes words or behaviours which are "threatening, abusive or insulting and are intended or, having regard to all the circumstances, are likely to stir up hatred" against "a group of persons in the State or elsewhere on account of their race, colour, nationality, religion, ethnic or national origins, membership of the travelling community or sexual orientation."[1]
* In Canada, advocating genocide or inciting hatred against any 'identifiable group' is an indictable offense under the Canadian Criminal Code with maximum terms of two to fourteen years. An 'identifiable group' is defined as 'any section of the public distinguished by colour, race, religion, ethnic origin or sexual orientation.' It makes exceptions for cases of statements of truth, and subjects of public debate and religious doctrine. The landmark judicial decision on the constitutionality of this law was R. v. Keegstra (1990).
* In Iceland, the hate speech law is not confined to inciting hatred, as one can see from Article 233 a. in the Icelandic Criminal Code, but includes simply expressing such hatred publicly:
"Anyone who in a ridiculing, slanderous, insulting, threatening or any other manner publicly assaults a person or a group of people on the basis of their nationality, skin colour, race, religion or sexual orientation, shall be fined or jailed for up to 2 years." (The word "assault" in this context does not refer to physical violence, only to expressions of hatred.)
Freedom of speech is argued by many writers to be the most basic freedom. The essayist and novelist George Orwell said “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” Orwell argues that a society that is too careful not to offend cannot be truthfully expressive, artistic, or diverse. Taking offense to speech is an arbitrary response. To account for every possible way a phrase may be found offensive is not only impossible, but a hindrance to freedom of expression and even thought.
Originally posted by blueorder
Try responding to the post instead of right on cliched s hite like yer last line, ok popsy