Racial slur as man calls Welsh woman "English"

It is racism pure and simple.

The guy did not refer to any of her other attributes other than her nationality (admittedly in a reverse fashion!). Also, just because the UK is apparently 'United', do not lose sight of the fact that there are 5 passionate countries with a very bloody history in a very small space!

The victim in this case felt she had been racially abused. According to the law that is all that is required for the matter to be taken further.

Every single human being is vulnerable to racism regardless of colour/race/nationality and it must not be tolerated at any level in any form.

The moment we allow that to happen we lose the war on racism.

[edit on 5/12/2007 by skibtz]

[edit on 5/12/2007 by skibtz]

Calling someone English is not racist. It would be like someone calling an American a Canadian.

The "war" as you put it on racism will be lost when cases like this switch public opinion from full support of it to thinking its completely insane.

reply to post by Flyer


Wrong Flyer.

Racism relates to race, colour or nationality.

Check out:United Nations

Quite simply, the victim felt she was racially abused. It is irrelevant if you think she wasn't.

As for the War on Racism - at least unlike the War on Terror, it is real.

[edit on 5/12/2007 by skibtz]

[edit on 5/12/2007 by skibtz]

reply to post by skibtz


I know that but the word English is not racist in any way, shape or form. Hence she was not racially abused.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Can a Brit please explain to me what the actual animosity is between the Welsh and the English? Is there a history of violence between the two? I'm going to London next month and don't want to upset anyone with an offhand comment without knowing the history behind it.

Thanks

Lots of history involved in this, hundreds of years of it actually.

The difference beyween Wales and Scotland is that wales was actually conquered in the 13th century by the English, and Edward I built his ring of castles to keep the locals under his thumb. This is why the union jack contains no evidence of Wales.

The welsh fought against the occupation a couple of hundred years later, even gaining a degree of independence, but, again, were subdued. The language was restricted for a long time.

Wales still retains its own identity, culture, and language. And over the last hundred years or so has become quite nationalistic - to the extent of burning down English holiday homes for a while. Has calmed a bit over the last 20 years, but there is still lots of graffiti of the likes of 'colonists out' etc. There are the odd case of racist attacks (or what are classed as this). But the language is doing pretty well now, and the welsh have their own assembly.

So, yeah, lots of Welsh despise the English, and, as is obvious even in a weak form in this thread, vice versa. I have the pleasure of being a bit of both - Welsh ancestry, but grew up over the border in England, live in Wales now.

Wales also has the best flag ever...



Hwyl fawr

[edit on 5-12-2007 by melatonin]

I think this was racist (well we could have a big argument about country not equalling race but that's another thing), because he chose to use the word 'english' as part of the insult. If he hadn't intended to insult her race he would have just called her a 'bitch', not an 'english bitch'. To me it appears he chose the word 'english' as part of the insult because he sees being english as a bad thing, which is racist.

if you call someone a 'white bitch' or 'black bitch', you are adding the term 'white' or 'black' because you think that is more insulting that just 'bitch' alone, therefore you have made a judgement that black or white is a bad thing, that can be used as an insult.

My two shillings...

Originally posted by bobafett
I think this was racist (well we could have a big argument about country not equalling race but that's another thing), because he chose to use the word 'english' as part of the insult. If he hadn't intended to insult her race he would have just called her a 'bitch', not an 'english bitch'. To me it appears he chose the word 'english' as part of the insult because he sees being english as a bad thing, which is racist.

if you call someone a 'white bitch' or 'black bitch', you are adding the term 'white' or 'black' because you think that is more insulting that just 'bitch' alone, therefore you have made a judgement that black or white is a bad thing, that can be used as an insult.

My two shillings...

I see your point, its like a guy like calling an asian girl a black bitch, because hes racist to black people and finds that a good way to insult her?
Think so?

Or maybe it just came out, maybe it was nothing, you know how people say things they dont mean when their angry.
Anyway all this is silly.


[edit on 5-12-2007 by _Phoenix_]

I agree that this was racist. It was used *as* an insult, was inaccurate...the Welsh are no more English than I am a zebra, and derogatory from a Welsh context...the English treated the Welsh quite barbarically for a long period of time.

I support this man's punishment...

"The former lorry driver, who is originally from Northern Ireland, but lives in Powys, Mid Wales, called Lorna Steele an "English bitch" during an argument after he collided with her parked vehicle in the Welsh market town of Newport in February."

He sounds like a world-class jerk to me.

Well, gentlemen, as an american I have found this thread very entertaining.
First off what a rediculous ruling, I have to admit I'm not
up to snuff on British judiciary structure, but there must be some higher level court to review the decision, with a clearer view of the law.
It would be like me, as a californian, being called a texan, which I have, and being offended.
And dont you, "Englishmen" come in different varieties as well?
Sadly most Americans know very little about british history other than as it intersected ours.
I know I can tell the difference between a scottsman and an irishman and an englishman. Ive not heard an welshman speak, so I wouldn't recognize it.
I have a few friends that are english and I can hear a difference in their dialects.
One friend is from suffolk and his wife is from near manchester, and they sound very different.
By the way what is a chav?

[edit on 6-12-2007 by punkinworks]

Originally posted by CX
Thats almost laughable.

I'll never understand the justice system here in the UK, it's embarrasing at times.

You could mug a granny and get less than that here.

My dad will be pleased about this though......he's a very patriotic Scot and when he gets any official forms to fill in, where it asks, "British or other", he always writes "Scottish" in big letters!

I'm not sure anyone would get as far as a court if they called him English!

CX.

Actually your dad is wrong! There is no such thing as an "English" or "Scottish" legal nationality we are all British , think of a passport. It's a British passport not Welsh not English not Scottish because your legal nationality is British. Now it may be that your dad wishes to have an independant Scotland and when that occurs he can definitely have a Scottish passport.....which he'll need by the way! There is no way either the British (england,wales+NI) government or the Scottish government will allow the mass movement of untaxed goods across the border. Just look at the English-French border issues for goods such as alcohol. What about immigration, army, water(!), power etc etc the list is endless.

Anyway I remind my collegues here in Scotland of the joke :

Q: How do you know the plane from Scotland has landed at Heathrow?
A:The plane has stopped but the whining hasn't.

reply to post by Rasobasi420



Basically, during the 12th, 12th, and 13th centurys England used Wales as a training ground for the inexperianced british troops, enroute for the war with france, Scotland etc.

They let them burn and attack villages and towns etc in wales so they´d know what to do when the time came, and if the welsh crossed the border for anything they where cut down.

As i understand it there is still a law in vigor that states it perfectly legal to shoot a welshman in Chester town centre after midnight with a crossbow, its from the 11th century !!!

Originally posted by Jim_Kraken
I support this man's punishment...

"The former lorry driver, who is originally from Northern Ireland, but lives in Powys, Mid Wales, called Lorna Steele an "English bitch" during an argument after he collided with her parked vehicle in the Welsh market town of Newport in February."

He sounds like a world-class jerk to me.

It sounds to me as if the authorities wanted to punish the lorry driver for being an arsehole but could not find a charge to get him with except the race one. In which case we should be applauding the authorities for their inventiveness.

Originally posted by Niall197
So if the Scots are merely a nation, how come the Welsh & English are both nations and races ? A very weird court decision ...

The Welsh and the English are not both nations. England is a Kingdom (well, monarchy), Wales is a principality. It was never united under a single ruler. Which is why it is not represented on the Union Flag.

Scotland is a nation because it is also a Kingdom (monarchy...), separate to England, but sharing a monarch.

As for your noting earlier precedent, sounds like good grounds for an appeal. Unless the case was in Scotland, where the law is different. English Common Law and Scottish Common Law are two distinctly different things.

Originally posted by melatonin

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Can a Brit please explain to me what the actual animosity is between the Welsh and the English? Is there a history of violence between the two? I'm going to London next month and don't want to upset anyone with an offhand comment without knowing the history behind it.

Thanks

Lots of history involved in this, hundreds of years of it actually.

Wales still retains its own identity, culture, and language. And...there is still lots of graffiti of the likes of 'colonists out' etc.

My yr 9 maths teacher was Welsh, tried to teach us the language, once. Flippin 'ell, what a mouthful. But I did learn that Gog means church! (as in the town with a railway station, a brook and three churches...)

My favourite reference to Wales comes for an old film called "They Were Not Divided."

Set up: Pommy and his Yank mate join up during WW2 and choose the Guards. When a Sergeant asks them which regiment they're in, they reply "Welsh."

The Sergeant's reply?

"Ah, foreign legion."

(Later on another Sergant explains to the Yank that the world is divided into two halves: England and the Colonies!)

Mr Fantastic is Welsh, by the way. As is Mrs Michael Douglas, the fourth 007, Batman, Hannibal Lecter, Q (the late one), the Rolls half of Rolls-Royce and the bloke Mt Everest is named after.

And if you want to know why men from the valleys should be feared mightily, watch this all-time classic

www.imdb.com...

Lieutenant John Chard: The army doesn't like more than one disaster in a day.
Bromhead: Looks bad in the newspapers and upsets civilians at their breakfast.

The "race" and "hate" laws of the UK are perverted and debase the meanings of the words.

I also take issue with crimes being awarded heavier sentences for "thought" reasons, for instance

A fella stabs a man to death because he dislikes him and perhaps fancies taking his wallet

A fella stabs a man to death because he is a different race or is gay


The latter will receive a higher sentence even though their actions are the same, a murder has occurred and the loved ones feel the same grief.

This elevation of victimhood and increasing use of "thought crimes" should be opposed vigorously

The driver was originally from Northern Ireland. Now if anyone has a beef with the ‘English’ it is them!

The Welshpool Magistrates Court is just inside the Welsh border from Shropshire England. (home turf!)

Forsythe (a good old English name!) was a dork for hitting a parked car!

He should have been fined for that – a traffic violation – “Driving without due care and attention”.

Hitting him with “Racially aggravated disorderly behaviour” in a Welsh court smacks of racial behaviour in it self!!

My two shillings and sixpence!

Originally posted by punkinworks
By the way what is a chav?

Not to be taken too seriously:

Derived from Chatham in Kent, this term can be applied loosely to every culture with a nasty, thieving element. There are many variants of this creature but all are subject to the following commonalities:

Chavs are completely Amoral, having never been subjected to right and wrong by their inattentive, uncaring and often absent parents.

Chavs are part Magpie, evidentially supported by their love of all things shiny, or as vaccuous, illiterate street-slang would say 'Bling'. They can be seen twokking from the Jewelry counter in Argos/Index.

theworldwidefreeride.tripod.com...



They are generally working class kids with a certain fashion taste and lifestyle.




[edit on 6-12-2007 by melatonin]

Originally posted by Flyer

Originally posted by Beachcoma

But why do they hate the English?

Because they are insignificant compared to England. Probably a bit like Quebec hating the rest of Canada.

I dont know if thats correct but thats the situation here.

Its because of childish comments like that some Welsh people dislike the English.

But on a whole, us Welsh and the English get on fine and enjoy a bit of banter in sport/entertainment etc and thats all it is. Just like rival football teams... They have plenty of songs/chats about each other that could be taken the wrong way, but 99% of the fans enjoy it in the moment and then get on together fine after the game.

Stupid ruling i think.

reply to post by Havalon


I have to agree with what you're saying. The man was clearly an idiot for crashing into a parked car and that's really what the focus of the prosectution should have been about.

I take on board what some posters have said here regarding the fact that calling someone 'English' is racist, but again, I bring into play the point that I truly do not believe that this is the type of situation that the legislation was enacted to deal with.

I went to university myself in Wales and loved every minute of it, but there was a Welsh only Hall of Residence there and there were often verbal sparring matches between them and some of the rest of us, where we would be shouting English this, and Welsh that at one another across a pub, usually while the rugby was on. The point of mentioning that is that not once did either group of students accuse the other of being racist, because it wasn't intended or even implied.

It's called banter.

The welsh and the English (oops, appears I forgot to 'welsh' a capital 'W' there - is it to be considered a racially motived insult, I wonder?) have banter because of the historical situation that previous posters have mentioned.

My fear is that this sets a riciculous precendent.

thanks for the responses, folks.

[edit on 6-12-2007 by more_serotonin_pls]

[edit on 6-12-2007 by more_serotonin_pls]