Obnoxious gas prices

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posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 01:57 PM
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reply to post by die_another_day
 


For videos of six automobiles fueled only with the components of water visit www.byronwine.com and look in #13-V




posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by bronco73
reply to post by DeadFlagBlues
 


you are using some guy who didn't have enough business sense to keep a small company of 12 trucks afloat as your evidence, and you are calling me the genius?

Whether you like it or not, we pay a smaller percentage of our income on gasoline now than we did thirty years ago, it is a fact. You can "bitch, moan, and fight the welfare of my situation" all you want, but it will not change the fact that you are getting a very good deal, especially on what is termed to be a non-renewable resource. Cows shoot out milk by the trillions of gallons per year, yet you gladly pay more for that than gas. I live 7 miles from my work, and it costs me less than 3 bucks a day to get there and back. That my friend is a good deal. I bet you don't say a word when you shell out 60 or 70 bucks to take your sweetheart out to the local cinema for a flick and snacks, do you?


Seriously, you need to quit your stupid comments about men and situations you have no idea about. That guy was one of the genuinely nice and well intentioned guys I've ever known. I didn't give you a personal experience with what gas prices can do with hard working men and women for you to reply with some unintelligent, facetious, irrelevant return. Fact is, gas prices put immense strain on a full spectrum of American jobs and lives. And everybody isn't in your situation. Local economies are spread so thin that people are commuting more than 30 miles daily.

Source.
Source.
Source.
Source.
Relativity of rising gas prices.
Oh, and Durrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Gas is breaking the back of the working class. You can't argue with that. Oh, and next time come prepared with anything other than some insignificant opinion and lame remarks about other people's livelihood.

Contentment kills.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues



Seriously? If you were serious you wouldn't have bothered to continue this argument that you are losing. How nice and well intentioned your little buddy is is irrelivant. There are lots of nice guys and lots of not so nice guys that seem to be able to keep their trucking companies afloat. What kind of argument is "he's a nice guy so that means gas is too high".
Now, as far as people having to drive 30 miles to work, you absolute bafoon, a car that gets 30 miles to the gallon (which most do now) will cost you a big 6 bucks a day. Again, that is a very low cost to get to work, a very good deal.

You don't believe you are getting a good deal on gas?
bigpicture.typepad.com...

As far as your cites go, I can't believe you actually wasted 2 days digging this drivel up.
In your first stupid cite the company is not closing down, and it even outright states their cost of 36 cents per mile, which by the way is much better mileage than your buddy that works 30 miles away. The company is also quoted as saying he "predicts that some independent truckers will go out of business this year", where is your smoking gun of all these companies folding?

In your second stupid cite I found this quote: "Gasoline prices are expected to fall from more than $3 a gallon to $2.58 a gallon by the end of the year if there are no further disruptions in supply, according to the federal Energy Information Administration." Wow, you really picked a winner here! Gas prices going down!

Third stupid cite: Lots of travellers are feeling the pinch of gas prices. Wow, what a killer cite this one is. If the gas is so high, why are they still travelling? Funny they can afford the trip, yet bitch about the price of gas.

Fourth stupid cite: milk and cheese are expensive too. Wow, you blew the lid off with this one. That's what I said in my original post, but you went off on some rant about a nice buddy with bad business sense going out of business.

Fifth stupid cite: the cost of moving from Miami-Dade to Broward County will cost customers an extra $35. Woo, an hour and a half worth of wages more to move to an entirely different county. Come on pal.

Sixth stupid cite: This is a direct quote from your little cite (what's with the Durrrrrrrrrrrrrr? you having stuttering issues or something?) "So might higher oil prices tip the economy into recession? It's possible — that's what happened in 1973 — but most economists say it's unlikely this time." Of course this moron didn't bother to tell the whole truth, that adjusted for inflation the gas now is cheaper than it was in 1973. That might have something to do with it.

Now, to address the rest of your idiocy.
www.cato.org...
money.cnn.com...
findarticles.com...
slingshot.tao.ca...
www.planetizen.com...
www.heartland.org...
www.inflationdata.com...

There are thousands upon thousands more cites if you want more shame, but I will leave it there for now. Now, the fact still remains that we pay LESS of a percentage of our money now for gas than we have in thirty years. Your buddy with the trucks is getting a better deal than his predecessors. Your friend that lives 30 miles from work earns more compared to the price of gas than his father did. YOU PAY LESS FOR GAS NOW, period. Go cry to somebody else you little tit.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 09:44 PM
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Yes... fuel prices vary greatly from state to state... and it is in part from differing tax rates.

Yes... it's hurting the middle class.

Yes... it's still cheaper than in other countries.

Yes... high fuel prices are tied to politics and OPEC.

Yes... owner-operators and small trucking companies are going out of business.

Yes... oil company profits are at an all-time high.

Yes... Wall Street is part of the cause.

This reminds me of the blind men trying to figure out what the elephant looked like. The problem is caused by the increased global oil demand, exasperated by OPEC, abused by oil companies, increased by enviromental regulations, and finalized by high tax rates. But here's the real problem:

Everything you buy, and I mean everything, is transported at some point. The food you eat, the car you drive, the materials for the house you live in, the clothes you wear, the furniture you sit on, and the computer you type your posts on, all have to be shipped during their manufacture and sale, most several times. And that shipping takes fuel.

So as fuel prices rise, the costs of shipping rise, and more and stricter governmental regulations simply increase the costs further. Thus, the cost of all other goods rise as well. No recession form high gas prices? I already see double-digit inflation, misrepresented by the GAO due to a nice little change in the inflation index computations. So those of you who are complaining about the prices at the pump, look around you; everything is going up. And the prices will continue to rise, until finally, most can no longer afford to buy anymore. That's called 'recession'. If enough people can't afford to buy, that's called 'depression'.

Who makes the money during a depression? Those who have money. Who gets hurt the worse? Those who owe money. Follow the money trail if you want to find out who's to blame. It's pretty easy to see.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 10:27 PM
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Seriously? If you were serious you wouldn't have bothered to continue this argument that you are losing. How nice and well intentioned your little buddy is is irrelivant. There are lots of nice guys and lots of not so nice guys that seem to be able to keep their trucking companies afloat. What kind of argument is "he's a nice guy so that means gas is too high".
Now, as far as people having to drive 30 miles to work, you absolute bafoon, a car that gets 30 miles to the gallon (which most do now) will cost you a big 6 bucks a day. Again, that is a very low cost to get to work, a very good deal.


I wasn't bringing him into the conversation as an example of personal business management, or for him to be #'d on by some condescending person trying to manipulate my words to make an irrelevant assertations. The reason why I brought him into the conversation to display what is happening to average Americans all across the country, from all walks of life. Though, we may have it "good" considering the other parts of the world. We've dealt with extreme inflations that are affecting every single one of our lives. It doesn't make sense to come at us because you're paying 7 dollars a gallon in your country. That's your problem. This is ours.


You don't believe you are getting a good deal on gas?
bigpicture.typepad.com...



As far as your cites go, I can't believe you actually wasted 2 days digging this drivel up.
In your first stupid cite the company is not closing down, and it even outright states their cost of 36 cents per mile, which by the way is much better mileage than your buddy that works 30 miles away. The company is also quoted as saying he "predicts that some independent truckers will go out of business this year", where is your smoking gun of all these companies folding?


I hate to ruin your day, but I didn't spend more than 15 minutes on my response. To be entirely honest, I forgot about it until I checked "My ATS." And trucking is just a small part of it. Gas regulates every aspect in our country in terms of cost. The consequences of a rising gas prices are vast and far reaching. Especially on trucking companies, but also on every staple material or food that is shipped within the country. Gas prices are a base component and with it being purposely inflated to create sudden mass profits, it creates a chain reaction with every staple component of our livelihoods. That isn't far for America, let alone everybody else.


In your second stupid cite I found this quote: "Gasoline prices are expected to fall from more than $3 a gallon to $2.58 a gallon by the end of the year if there are no further disruptions in supply, according to the federal Energy Information Administration." Wow, you really picked a winner here! Gas prices going down!



That's a very small portion of the article and it's to save face or to reserve public opinion about the subject. It IS the end of the year and we're currently on the rise by 12 cents. Price gouging also becomes especially apparent during the holiday seasons. That article wasn't a "truth" but were only citing the Federal Energy Information Administration, which have been saying gas prices will decrease since 2000.



i229.photobucket.com...


Do me a favor and look at this chart and tell me why we shouldn't be outraged? Do you notice the beginning of the spike begins around the year 2000? What important American event had taken place in 2000? The inauguration of President George W. Bush. Part of his justification for going to war was the promise of lower gas prices due to the availability of crude oil in Iraq and Afghanistan. In retrospection, it's been quite the opposite.



Third stupid cite: Lots of travellers are feeling the pinch of gas prices. Wow, what a killer cite this one is. If the gas is so high, why are they still travelling? Funny they can afford the trip, yet bitch about the price of gas.


Gas is a necessary evil. We're not going to stop traveling, because we can't afford to stop traveling. We shouldn't have to consider driving to see our families for the holidays. After all the false promises, we should be outraged, and the blatant gas gouging all around the United States should call for extreme reforms of OPEC policy.


Fourth stupid cite: milk and cheese are expensive too. Wow, you blew the lid off with this one. That's what I said in my original post, but you went off on some rant about a nice buddy with bad business sense going out of business.


That makes a considerable impact on your average American family. You can laugh and mock the seriousness of the situation, but it stands as a valid point for every American.



A bushel of corn that went for about $2 a couple of years ago costs about $3.50 today.



"In 2004, I bought a gallon of milk, it was a $1.63," Williams said before heading into a Wal-Mart in Savoy, Ill., about 140 miles south of Chicago. A gallon of milk cost nearly $3 a gallon last month in her area.



A couple of years ago, Williams would spend about $250 a month on one big grocery trip. Now she says she's spending $250 on big trips every two weeks.


SOURCE

And why do food prices go up?




The price of oil affects just about everything that is made, transported, eaten and sold in the United States. But with oil approaching $100 a barrel, the impact on the U.S. economy has been less than many analysts expected.


SOURCE

This is our livelihoods in the balance. I'm not doing anything more than trying to make people aware of the current crisis we face that is all


Fifth stupid cite: the cost of moving from Miami-Dade to Broward County will cost customers an extra $35. Woo, an hour and a half worth of wages more to move to an entirely different county. Come on pal.


You continually take minimal derivatives from the article, and use them as your emphasis. This is really almost entirely irrelevant.


Sixth stupid cite: This is a direct quote from your little cite (what's with the Durrrrrrrrrrrrrr? you having stuttering issues or something?) "So might higher oil prices tip the economy into recession? It's possible — that's what happened in 1973 — but most economists say it's unlikely this time." Of course this moron didn't bother to tell the whole truth, that adjusted for inflation the gas now is cheaper than it was in 1973. That might have something to do with it.


Look at the chart above. We're not off by much, and all that is compounded by the our weak dollar and climbing inflation of staple goods. It's really not that hard to see, and I don't understand where your difficulty comes in.



There are thousands upon thousands more cites if you want more shame, but I will leave it there for now. Now, the fact still remains that we pay LESS of a percentage of our money now for gas than we have in thirty years. Your buddy with the trucks is getting a better deal than his predecessors. Your friend that lives 30 miles from work earns more compared to the price of gas than his father did. YOU PAY LESS FOR GAS NOW, period. Go cry to somebody else you little tit.


Your pompous demeanor is laughable in itself. Winning an argument based on twisting words around, taking irrelevant portions of the material, and displaying your sentiments as if they should be held in any respects is also a joke. Your personal attacks also show insecurity within your argument. And your argument, one of which is almost entirely based on opinion. Your opinion is just that and has no bearing on how that affects my life or the lives of my fellow citizens. You don't take into account the buying power of the dollar or any of the other variables that you should have before subjecting us to your trivial splurge. You seem to have a handle on pointing out inconsistencies in the subject material, but have done nothing but badger me about my personal view on the matter.


You've proven to be quite the Don Quixote of the forums.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues

I wasn't bringing him into the conversation as an example of personal business management, or for him to be #'d on by some condescending person trying to manipulate my words to make an irrelevant assertations. The reason why I brought him into the conversation to display what is happening to average Americans all across the country, from all walks of life. "Though, we may have it "good" considering the other parts of the world. We've dealt with extreme inflations that are affecting every single one of our lives. It doesn't make sense to come at us because you're paying 7 dollars a gallon in your country. That's your problem. This is ours.


I don't have to manipulate your words, and my assertion is very relevant. If the price of gas is truly the cause of his going out of business, the evidence would necessitate a majority of the other trucking businesses also closing shop. That is not happening. You have it good compared to the rest of the world, and even the rest of the world seems to be able to keep trucks rolling. Think about it. By your own admission your problems are much smaller than theirs, yet they can manage.


I hate to ruin your day, but I didn't spend more than 15 minutes on my response. To be entirely honest, I forgot about it until I checked "My ATS." And trucking is just a small part of it. Gas regulates every aspect in our country in terms of cost. The consequences of a rising gas prices are vast and far reaching. Especially on trucking companies, but also on every staple material or food that is shipped within the country. Gas prices are a base component and with it being purposely inflated to create sudden mass profits, it creates a chain reaction with every staple component of our livelihoods. That isn't far for America, let alone everybody else.


That's right, trucking is a small part of it. And when looking at the entire picture you should see that the price of gasoline and diesel in the USA is incredibly cheap, and it is much cheaper than it should be. Again, I assert that rather than complaining, you should be rejoicing. You pay about 2 bucks a gallon for the gas that you burn on the way to starbucks, where you pay 30 bucks a gallon for a latte.


That's a very small portion of the article and it's to save face or to reserve public opinion about the subject. It IS the end of the year and we're currently on the rise by 12 cents. Price gouging also becomes especially apparent during the holiday seasons. That article wasn't a "truth" but were only citing the Federal Energy Information Administration, which have been saying gas prices will decrease since 2000.


I'd hardly call it price gouging. It's more like giving you less of a good deal. And with the price per barrel of oil dropping 20 dollars over the last 10 days, I have a hunch that the administration is right.


Do me a favor and look at this chart and tell me why we shouldn't be outraged? Do you notice the beginning of the spike begins around the year 2000? What important American event had taken place in 2000? The inauguration of President George W. Bush. Part of his justification for going to war was the promise of lower gas prices due to the availability of crude oil in Iraq and Afghanistan. In retrospection, it's been quite the opposite.


You shouldn't be outraged because you are paying less for gas than almost every single thing you purchase. Also, your president absolutely did not promise that you would get lower gas prices if he invaded Iraq or Afghanistan. I've got no love for the guy, but don't put words into his mouth.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 01:50 PM
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I have to continue my post here because the forum had me going over the maximum characters
Originally posted by DeadFlagBlues


Gas is a necessary evil. We're not going to stop traveling, because we can't afford to stop traveling. We shouldn't have to consider driving to see our families for the holidays. After all the false promises, we should be outraged, and the blatant gas gouging all around the United States should call for extreme reforms of OPEC policy.


If you cannot afford the gas, as is your assertion, then you absolutely cannot afford to travel. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot call for any reforms in OPEC policy, it is their policy, it is their oil. The arrogance of a demand like the one you have just made is astounding.


That makes a considerable impact on your average American family. You can laugh and mock the seriousness of the situation, but it stands as a valid point for every American.


If you feel it is a valid point, yet discount the proven fact that you still pay a lower percentage of your money for gasoline than you have in the past 30 years, then this discussion is pointless.

Your next information is also pointless because you (or the original authors) did not adjust any of their costs to inflation, where I am sure you'd see that you are getting a darn good deal there as well.


You continually take minimal derivatives from the article, and use them as your emphasis. This is really almost entirely irrelevant.


No, it is very relevant. The average american income has increased more compared to his cost of living than any person of any country on the planet over the last 30 years. That cost of moving hurts your wallet less than anybody elses, anywhere. That is very relevant.


Look at the chart above. We're not off by much, and all that is compounded by the our weak dollar and climbing inflation of staple goods. It's really not that hard to see, and I don't understand where your difficulty comes in.


Your dollar isn't weak, your dollar is strong. It just isn't as strong as it used to be. Maybe you have gotten yourself too used to having more disposable income than you really should have? Welcome to the real world, it will get worse for you before it gets better.


Your pompous demeanor is laughable in itself.


If you review this thread you will see that it is you who started with the personal attacks. I just went with the flow. My first post was polite and without flames.



Winning an argument based on twisting words around, taking irrelevant portions of the material, and displaying your sentiments as if they should be held in any respects is also a joke.


I didn't twist any words, I used direct quotes from your cites. I submit that it was you who twisted words. Whether you respect my sentiments or not is irrelivant. Maybe you just don't want to hear the truth?


Your personal attacks also show insecurity within your argument. And your argument, one of which is almost entirely based on opinion.


You are amazing. Show me one cite I've provided, or one statement I have made that is in error. Just one.


Your opinion is just that and has no bearing on how that affects my life or the lives of my fellow citizens. You don't take into account the buying power of the dollar or any of the other variables that you should have before subjecting us to your trivial splurge. You seem to have a handle on pointing out inconsistencies in the subject material, but have done nothing but badger me about my personal view on the matter.


That's right, my comments have no bearing on you. The reality of the facts I put forth however do. When you are paying for your gasoline what everybody else pays, you will have cause to complain. Crying about it now makes you look like a spoiled little child, and you started the badgering, I just played your game.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 12:04 AM
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I don't have to manipulate your words, and my assertion is very relevant. If the price of gas is truly the cause of his going out of business, the evidence would necessitate a majority of the other trucking businesses also closing shop. That is not happening. You have it good compared to the rest of the world, and even the rest of the world seems to be able to keep trucks rolling. Think about it. By your own admission your problems are much smaller than theirs, yet they can manage.


"The Impact of Rising Fuel Prices on America's Small Businesses."
Written by the ATA.

This is the last time I'm going to give you evidence regarding this matter. It is and will continue to be primary concern for the trucking community. I've witnessed it first hand, as many Americans have, and it's affecting those around me, it should be cause for concern. Because we have it "better" than some, doesn't mean it's not critically affecting our everyday life. With the deterioration of the middle class in full swing, you have to understand even the little price adjustments are causing a tremendous amount of pressure on those of us who are responsible for carrying the country.


That's right, trucking is a small part of it. And when looking at the entire picture you should see that the price of gasoline and diesel in the USA is incredibly cheap, and it is much cheaper than it should be. Again, I assert that rather than complaining, you should be rejoicing. You pay about 2 bucks a gallon for the gas that you burn on the way to starbucks, where you pay 30 bucks a gallon for a latte.


It's is cheap in "comparison" to other markets, which is once again irrelevant. We aren't competing to see "who has it the worst." That's what your entire argument is based off, and the comparison of two different markets, with two completely different economy structures, along with a list of other considerable differences makes for an irrelevant talking point. You can bring all the gimmicks into the conversation, as you've done with the "Starbucks Latte," and while I agree with you that are short sighted with their money decisions, but that's not the majority of Americans. The majority of Americans are barely scraping by as it is.




A shocking 37 million Americans live in poverty. That is 12.7 per cent of the population - the highest percentage in the developed world.


This is the reality. The majority of the middle class aren't going out for triple latte macchiato's. They're trying to pay 4 dollars for a gallon of milk and other staple goods that are rising exponentially. A five dollar coffee is the least of "our" worries.



I'd hardly call it price gouging. It's more like giving you less of a good deal. And with the price per barrel of oil dropping 20 dollars over the last 10 days, I have a hunch that the administration is right.


No, it's obvious price gouging is taking place as we've seen by the chart I posted previously and by the record profits we've seen within a one year time span. Exxon Mobile and Chevron have posted record setting profits both quarterly and yearly. There is no justifiable reason for a 32% increase in profits in ONE year other than market manipulation. A 7.6 billion dollar increase over profits the previous year without the supply/demand ratio being heavily irregular. There were no irregularities in demand that warrant a 32% increase in profits for one major company. None.




"The huge profits are enormous because the public is drastically overpaying what it costs to produce,"


Source.




"These gains come from pain at the pumps that the American people are feeling," said Sen. Byron L. Dorgan (D-N.D.), who introduced the measure. "These profits are far beyond that which these corporations would normally earn.


Source.

Denying market manipulation and gas gouging is an indefensible position. We have so many paid sources saying it's not a reality, but it's obviously something we can all see and experience through our daily actions and we can correlate that with the reported profits of the powers that be.


You shouldn't be outraged because you are paying less for gas than almost every single thing you purchase.


We all should be outraged knowing that the quality of our lives is being played with at will of others. Their concern not lie with the people, but with an insignificant piece of paper. We should be angry that those that were sworn into defend our livelihood are rubbing shoulders with the same people that are inflating prices on everything that dictates the stability of our lives.



If you cannot afford the gas, as is your assertion, then you absolutely cannot afford to travel. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot call for any reforms in OPEC policy, it is their policy, it is their oil. The arrogance of a demand like the one you have just made is astounding.


Travel is necessary and an everyday part of life. Once again, a very small portion of the source in which you've entirely side stepped the point, but the fact is. The price of gas has an adverse effect on every single aspect of our lives. I'm all for responsibility of people and their own personal regulations on where to spend their money, but the reasons behind having to regulate one's self is because these companies are purposely and unfairly driving up the cost of a necessity for power and profit. If we lie back and let them take full advantage of their monopolized markets, we'll be directly regulated on what we can and can't do. I also have issues with the monopoly on energy itself. They're jacking up the prices on crude all across the board and are purposely suppressing alternative means to the same means of energy.



If you feel it is a valid point, yet discount the proven fact that you still pay a lower percentage of your money for gasoline than you have in the past 30 years, then this discussion is pointless.


Just because gasoline peaked in '78 doesn't mean you can use that as a benchmark from there on out. It did come down and we are paying more now than we have in the past 62 years with the exception of the "crisis of '73" or the oil shock of '81.

Inflation corrected gas chart.

All the while our dollar has been on an exponential decline, making our buying power towards other common goods a hassle in itself.



Your next information is also pointless because you (or the original authors) did not adjust any of their costs to inflation, where I am sure you'd see that you are getting a darn good deal there as well.


Haha, and now you're accusing me of plagiarism? Low blow and quite ridiculous considering the "original authors" would have to conform to every single opinion you've given. Brilliant. I do believe we're getting a better deal than most but collectively we're being driven into obscurity by a few corporations. I'm not here to partake in your idiotic little "contest" of who's getting the better deal. Contentment kills, and it seems you've come to terms with you and yours being taken advantage of. Not I.I am tired of the constant manipulation and will not stand for it any longer. You can feel however you want about the situation, but that doesn't make it right. Not in the least.


No, it is very relevant. The average american income has increased more compared to his cost of living than any person of any country on the planet over the last 30 years. That cost of moving hurts your wallet less than anybody elses, anywhere. That is very relevant.


The money has increased but that is compensating for the decline of the dollar. You have to use more money to buy if the buying power of your currency is on a continuous decline. Common sense.



Your dollar isn't weak, your dollar is strong. It just isn't as strong as it used to be. Maybe you have gotten yourself too used to having more disposable income than you really should have? Welcome to the real world, it will get worse for you before it gets better.


Our dollar isn't strong. Quite the contrary. Our dollar is nearing an all time low. China, Russia, Japan, UAE, and even Argentina have been dumping the dollar in favor of the Euro, seeing as how the dollar hit an all time low in 26 years.



If you review this thread you will see that it is you who started with the personal attacks. I just went with the flow. My first post was polite and without flames.


My sentiments were also spirited and with a joking manner. Then everything became "stupid" to you as you knit picked every significant detail out of my cites. Such an amateur way of conducting yourself in a discussion, flames or not.

Continued...



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 12:20 AM
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reply to post by bronco73
 




You are amazing. Show me one cite I've provided, or one statement I have made that is in error. Just one.


The "strong" dollar, cheaper gas than our predecessors, are some of the things you have said that come to mind...


That's right, my comments have no bearing on you. The reality of the facts I put forth however do. When you are paying for your gasoline what everybody else pays, you will have cause to complain. Crying about it now makes you look like a spoiled little child, and you started the badgering, I just played your game.


Your facts are opinions. "You're getting a good deal." That's your opinion while I'm watching our "good deals" float an entire people into obscurity, widening the gap between the wealthy and the poor, causing drastic inflations on every part of American life.

This is not time for comparison as it is a time for empowerment. We must educate ourselves on these everyday manipulations and stand up for what is right. Whether it be America, England, Spain, whoever and where ever these same actions are affecting deserve to be know and these careless actions being taken that affect the lives of anyone deserve to be rectified one way or another.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 03:04 AM
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reply to post by DeadFlagBlues
 


I'm not going to post entire quotes because it is resulting in replies that are too long.


This is the last time I'm going to give you evidence

Your argument has been that trucking companies are closing down because of high fuel costs. This cite failed to even mention one, and it goes on further to state that fuel costs to trucking companies aren't even the number one cost. Labor is. Which lends credence to my claim that you earn more now compared to the cost of fuel than you have in the past.


It's is cheap in "comparison" to other markets,

I hadn't initially brought up other countries, you did. My original claim, and the one I have been arguing for since the beginning is that you pay less at the pump compared with your income than you have in the past. It is a claim that you are very good at avoiding debating. Yes, you have it way better than other countries, so I can see why you strive to make it somehow irrelivant even though it is.


This is the reality. The majority of the middle class aren't going out for triple latte macchiato's. They're trying to pay 4 dollars for a gallon of milk and other staple goods that are rising exponentially. A five dollar coffee is the least of "our" worries.

Yes they are going for latte. You see, you are somehow trying to equate middle class with poverty, and that will not fly. Most middle classers have multiple flatscreen TV's, bigger homes, two cars, and really nice kitchen tiles.


No, it's obvious price gouging is taking place...

If you'd like I will provide a cite for every one of yours that says not only are you not being gouged, you should be paying more. This one is a tit for tat that nobody will win. What you are failing to do is look at the bigger picture. Better technology, better transportation, better refining, increased demand, increased consumption are all contributing factors to oil company profits. And, you are ignoring the fact that government taxation is an even larger chunk of what you pay at the pumps.


We all should be outraged knowing that the quality of our lives is being played with...

You want quality of life? Stop driving. Walk, ride bike, jog, take bus, move closer to work. All will give you better quality of life than cheaper gas.


Travel is necessary and an everyday part of life.

Again, if you cannot afford the gasoline, then you cannot afford to travel. Make other arrangements, like move closer to where you want to go. Furthermore, gasoline has always been "monopolized markets", you think the oil companies just figured that little tidbit out now? What has changed exactly?


ust because gasoline peaked in '78 doesn't mean you can use that as a benchmark from there on out. It did come down and we are paying more now than we have in the past 62 years with the exception of the "crisis of '73" or the oil shock of '81.

This is untrue. First of all, my claim is that as a percentage of your income the inflation adjusted gas price is lower than ever, and I am correct. Your chart does not take your increased income into account. This chart only shows that you pay more dollar wise, completely ignoring income, which has risen further.


Haha, and now you're accusing me of plagiarism?

Huh? Um no, I wasn't. The intent was to include both you and the authors of the cites as making the same claims. It had nothing to do with plagiarism.


The money has increased but that is compensating for the decline of the dollar.

irrelivant. You are spending money on gas in house, a buck is a buck everywhere in the USA.


My sentiments were also spirited and with a joking manner...

calling me "genius" in a condescending way was not spirited or joking, nor ws that your intent.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 03:05 AM
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The "petty" bickering and the personal attacks stop NOW. Getting personal to make a point is not what this thread or this site --ATS --is about.

Please review the following links:

ATS Terms & Conditions

Courtesy is Mandatory

Civility & Decorum Are Expected



[edit on 12/8/2007 by benevolent tyrant]



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 03:23 AM
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reply to post by DeadFlagBlues
 



The "strong" dollar, cheaper gas than our predecessors, are some of the things you have said that come to mind...

Your dollar is worth more than almost every currency in the world. It is the benchmark used by the OPEC cartel, gold markets, China, stocks, markets, etc. It remains (for the time being) the worlds number 1 currency. My assertion is that you pay less for gasoline in comparison to income, a fact I've illustrated many times.


Your facts are opinions. "You're getting a good deal." That's your opinion while I'm watching our "good deals" float an entire people into obscurity, widening the gap between the wealthy and the poor, causing drastic inflations on every part of American life.

How many different times am I going to have to show you that you are better off now?
www.mackinac.org...
mjperry.blogspot.com...
www.cato.org...
media.www.californiaaggie.com...

It is not my opinion. It is fact, a fact that any real economist will tell you.


This is not time for comparison as it is a time for empowerment. We must educate ourselves on these everyday manipulations and stand up for what is right. Whether it be America, England, Spain, whoever and where ever these same actions are affecting deserve to be know and these careless actions being taken that affect the lives of anyone deserve to be rectified one way or another.

Well, good luck with that revolution.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 03:33 AM
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My apologies to DeadFlagBlues for any comments I have made that were rude, derogatory, or taken as a personal attack. I will endeavor to be much more civil in the future.

DeadFlagBlues, I am very sorry.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 04:10 AM
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reply to post by bronco73
 


Don't apologize. I don't care if a mod told you to do it or not. #, gets heated and it's natural to get pissed at people. I understand, and this discussion was one of the best I've ever had here at ATS.com. I've learned a lot from my own research and your counter arguments as well. We've both brought a lot of valuable information for everybody else to thumb through. Our conflicting viewpoints on the issue are just that, OUR conflicting viewpoints. All in all, we're all getting screwed. We can be content with that, or we can bitch, moan, and fight back a little bit.
You're definitely a valuable member of ATS.com and I'm looking forward to your posts.


Peace.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 06:05 AM
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reply to post by bronco73
 




Your argument has been that trucking companies are closing down because of high fuel costs. This cite failed to even mention one, and it goes on further to state that fuel costs to trucking companies aren't even the number one cost. Labor is. Which lends credence to my claim that you earn more now compared to the cost of fuel than you have in the past.



That was a small part of my argument. That was my own first hand experience into gas prices and their direct correlation with the well being of this country's citizens. I thought that was pretty apparent, but that should have never been the focal point. You're looking for sources saying they're shutting down, and the reality is they really are. All sorts of small businesses are being pressured into closing their doors because of the relativity of fossil fuels and everything else. Literally everything as we all know by now.



I hadn't initially brought up other countries, you did. My original claim, and the one I have been arguing for since the beginning is that you pay less at the pump compared with your income than you have in the past. It is a claim that you are very good at avoiding debating. Yes, you have it way better than other countries, so I can see why you strive to make it somehow irrelivant even though it is.


I still don't think you're taking into the buying power and the relation of common goods. We're paying $3.30 around my area. Which just last year it was around $2.10 - $2.20. A year ago the buying power of my dollar went from %.056 it's original value to .039% original value. I in turn have to pay an inflated price for gas with more money that I'm limited to earn based on my job, for a price that is absolute and steadily increasing. This is what happened when the great depression hit. Our money is becoming absolutely worthless while price for key elements of modern life are going up.

You know what causes a direct inflation of those elements? Gas prices.

Yes they are going for latte. You see, you are somehow trying to equate middle class with poverty, and that will not fly. Most middle classers have multiple flatscreen TV's, bigger homes, two cars, and really nice kitchen tiles.

But their wealth, along with our nations wealth is a fallacy. What you mistake for wealth is borrowed money. I live in a middle class neighborhood and we are supported by a credit bubble. Instead of what was once substantiated wealth is now imaginary wealth. This


If you'd like I will provide a cite for every one of yours that says not only are you not being gouged, you should be paying more. This one is a tit for tat that nobody will win. What you are failing to do is look at the bigger picture. Better technology, better transportation, better refining, increased demand, increased consumption are all contributing factors to oil company profits. And, you are ignoring the fact that government taxation is an even larger chunk of what you pay at the pumps.


And government taxation is a big part of it. I'm putting most of the blame where the blame lie, and that is obvious as we all can see these "record breaking profits!" Quarterly, Yearly... These people are manipulating all markets because of their thirst for power. I also agree that it is "tit for tat," and I believe that is the nature of this beast. Both sides as we've proven are blow for blow, and because you have your opinion, as you are content with gas prices, and my opinion, as where I'm fed up with the manipulation and corrosion of the middle class, this is more an issue between our ideology than it is a debate about social issue, or even social perspective. For all we know, neither side would appeal to the readers.

As far as technology goes, I don't think it's right for oil companies to conglomerate with car manufactures to suppress technologies for gas consumption or alternative means. This kind of tactic makes it impossible for people to get ahead of the game if they're limited to a resource and not given any alternative. Nations around us have upped their gas mileage requirements drastically, while we're still sitting at a standard "20 in the city, 27 on the freeway." If that's not a monopolization and manipulation of a market, I don't know what is.



You want quality of life? Stop driving. Walk, ride bike, jog, take bus, move closer to work. All will give you better quality of life than cheaper gas.


I have my quality of life. I'm speaking for the general public. If I had it my way, America would look like Amsterdam. There's be 200 million bicycles instead of vehicles. We're so out of touch with nature in every aspect that a move like that would only be highly beneficial. We've cornered ourselves as far as modern day transportation, though. Now we are reliable on machines to get us from place to place, and for those machines to run we need fuel. Fuel is being tampered with as to fluctuate to increase maximum profit, while not giving people a practical alternative.

If they would put as much effort into goodwill, steady markets, and reasonable alternatives of fuel and transportation methods as they do screwing everybody, this world would be in much better shape.


Again, if you cannot afford the gasoline, then you cannot afford to travel. Make other arrangements, like move closer to where you want to go. Furthermore, gasoline has always been "monopolized markets", you think the oil companies just figured that little tidbit out now? What has changed exactly?


Traveling is an everyday occurrence. This day and age, there is no way you could stop people form using their automobiles to get places they need to be. I personally believed we've put far too much faith in modern machinery, but it is what it is. There's no other viable source for the general population to get where they are going. It's a bit bigger than memorial day weekend.


This is untrue. First of all, my claim is that as a percentage of your income the inflation adjusted gas price is lower than ever, and I am correct. Your chart does not take your increased income into account. This chart only shows that you pay more dollar wise, completely ignoring income, which has risen further.


My chart showed the opposite. Your chart was based off the '81 spike and stopped at 2005. The chart that I snagged went back to 1910 showed the spike of the "record breaking" peak in 2006. Factor in the fall of the dollar and it's buying power in comparison to inflated gas, how much we make, and everything else. Doesn't matter how much we make if our dollar is diving. 10 dollars can spend as 1 if the buying power was low enough.


T
irrelivant. You are spending money on gas in house, a buck is a buck everywhere in the USA.


No, it's not. Not until we see the comeback of the dollar. Our money is nearly worthless in light of it's original value. Under 4 cents and falling. This has a drastic affect on you, I, and the way we live, but it doesn't hurt markets who are dishing our currency out for another. They go mostly unaffected.




I hope people are taking notes. From both perspectives.





[edit on 8-12-2007 by DeadFlagBlues]



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 07:12 AM
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How's this for obnoxious gas prices...
For those sick of oil companies ripping you off, some "dishonest" people got them back!



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 10:31 AM
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reply to post by NuclearPaul
 

Well, actually, they didn't get back at the oil companies. They took advantage of a gas station owner.

That's not to say I blame them. When the owner put in computerized pumps and payment machines, he/she took a risk that the technology could fail. I think it's sad that the customers were called 'dishonest'; I remember a time when that comment alone would have been considered more childish and irresponsible than buying the 'discounted' gas.

I also remember a time when someone would call the manager up and report the problem. Those days seem to be so gone now...

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 11:28 AM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


The people that are really getting the break in prices are the energy companies along with their, in my opinion obscene profits at the expense of the middle class.


www.bloomberg.com...

I wish that I as a taxpayer could get this good of a break!!



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by bronco73
reply to post by DeadFlagBlues
 

Whether you like it or not, we pay a smaller percentage of our income on gasoline now than we did thirty years ago, it is a fact.


Like it of not, we pay a much higher percentage of our income on gasoline now than we did 5 years ago. It too is a fact.

Federal Minimum Wage history:
Minimum wage January 1978: $2.65 per hour.
Minimum wage January 2003: $5.15 per hour.
Minimum wage January 2008: $5.85 per hour, with an increase to $6.55 in July 2008, and $7.25 in July 2009.
from:History of Federal Minimum Wage Rates Under the Fair Labor Standards Act, 1938 - 2007

Average price of a gallon of gas in US:
1978: $.525
2003: $1.176 (1978-2003 from: USATODAY
Current Average, Dec. 2007: $3.061 (12/3/07... from: EIA.gov

So I think the real complaint has nothing to do with a price of gas 30 years ago. I think it is more to do with the price of Gas in the last 10 years, especially the last 5. Maybe Americans have been spoiled too long, but I would like to know why the price of a gallon of gas never went down after Hurricane Katrina? Combine that hurricane and the turmoil in the middle east, and we have Gas creating the inflation that we see in all of our goods.

And since you mentioned '30 years ago' here something very interesting. A New York Times editorial from Charles H. Percy, former Republican Senator from Illinois, who actually proposed raising taxes on gas in 1990:

Had this gas tax hike been enacted in 1978, the situation we face today would be radically different in several ways:

* Increased gasoline prices would have spurred more rapid development of fuel-efficient automobiles and alternatively fueled vehicles such as electric cars.

* Oil consumption would have been reduced by about 600,000 barrels a day, leading in turn to lower oil imports (now climbing to 50 percent of U.S. consumption). Lower oil imports would have enhanced our industrial competitiveness, not to speak of national security. Energy imports accounted for nearly 40 percent of our $109 billion trade deficit last year.

* Air pollution would have been reduced significantly. Although transportation-related emissions make up only a portion of total carbon dioxide emissions, a 30 cent gas tax increase in 1978 would have reduced by over half the increase in total carbon dioxide emissions between 1978 and 1988.

* The Federal treasury would have received more than $250 billion over the past 12 years. These funds could have been used to reduce the deficit or to address other critical needs, such as rebuilding America's transportation infrastructure.


The Broad Benefits of a Gasoline Tax Hike

DocMoreau

Edit to Add this link:
pdf "Crude Facts" line graph from berkeley.edu



[edit on 8/12/2007 by DocMoreau]



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 03:41 PM
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Now cmon guys this is not a topic to get pissed off about.
Americans really are kind of spoiled nowadays considering the fact that other countries has way higher prices either in proportion to their wage or not.
If this situation continues then will we see the typical chain reaction caused by inflation.
Hillary said she'll increase gas prices even further to preserve the environment so I bet that the regular unleaded gas is going to be around 5-7 dollars by mid 2009 or sometime around there, IF she wins.
By the way guys how much do you pay for gas every month?





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