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Do Plants Feel Pain?

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posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 11:00 AM
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So I remember being in a biology class not too long ago and seeing an old black and white film dealing with plants and their awareness of a sense of pain. The film had a lead character, possibly a scientist of some sort, and what the 'scientist' did was attach some sort of (electrical nodes?) to apples that were on a tree. and what i recall had happened was that they measured something that the apple(when on the tree) was emitting. but, when the apple was plucked off the tree! it started to emit something different, supposedly showing an obvious and apparent change in what in what they apple was emitting.
i believe they thought that this showed that the apple was aware of pain, being as that it was now detached from its 'life source'.

now there would of course be a problem when it comes to trying to discover if plants feel pain. the problem would be the definition of pain per se. it is possible that plants acknowledge a different sense of pain then humans, in fact i would assume that they do. plants may not actually feel physical or mental pain. perhaps what they feel is entirely different.

so are plants aware of pain? do they actually feel it? do they sense it?
do they stress over it?

and also, what exactly do they 'do' once they become aware of it?




posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 11:12 AM
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Plants aren't sentient. They are living, and there are simply signals interpreted by the tree/apple. The tree saps over the place the apple was, etc...



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 11:18 AM
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Ah man, if fruit 'n' veg feels pain, what would the vgetarians do? Bread, water and crackers mmmm!

There was a thread similar to this not so long ago about plants sending signals to eachother through root systems. If that is the case though, there must be cells or a part of all the cells in plants that are aware of what is happening elsewhere on the plant. There could be alot more to them than we know.

EDIT - Sorry bread and crackers are made of wheat which is a plant.. looks like just water then


[edit on 3-12-2007 by fiftyfifty]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by fiftyfifty
Ah man, if fruit 'n' veg feels pain, what would the vgetarians do? Bread, water and crackers mmmm!


Hey, even crackers are made from flour, which comes from wheat, which is a plant.

Anyway, I do remember reading somewhere that trees release a sort of stress hormone or pheromone when there is a forest fire, and other trees will also respond in kind, releasing the pheromones. I don't know if that means they can also "feel" pain, but it looks clear that they do respond to external stimuli other than gravity, light and water source.

Edit: Okay fiftyfifty, just saw your edit after I posted


[edit on 3-12-2007 by Beachcoma]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 11:34 AM
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as a living thing i believe plants register changes in their surroundings and in their own material aswell.



posted on Dec, 4 2007 @ 01:53 AM
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FYI:

There has been quite a bit of research done in that area of plant sentience or consciousness. Based on that research that I have read and what I have read in the ancient texts I would have to say that every thing is alive. Yes everything. Though not necessarily as you or I are alive, conscious and sentient.

It does raise some questions:

What will Vegetarians do ? - They rip the living plants out of the ground and eat them raw, or cut them up - a veritable holocaust for carrots, radish, lettuce, etc. - Can they really beat up on carnivores in light of this revelation? That everything is alive and aware.

I know it seems comical but I am serious. In my personal philosophy LIFE FEEDS ON LIFE. There is no difference between eating a cow and eating a carrot. Both were living,we kill them and we eat them; to live.

So the next time you eat a burger with lettuce and tomato remember that the lettuce and tomato were screaming at the top of their photo-synthetic neural receptors just as much as the cow was screaming at the top of its lungs.

-Euclid



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 12:41 AM
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hmm didn't myth busters do something with this? like one of the guys were making angry thoughts about it and it changed the graph of the tree thingy


er maybe that was plants and emotions



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:22 AM
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From a scientific perspective, anything that lives 'feels pain', i.e. will trigger a reaction to anything that disrupts its life-process. Moreover, all things will trigger some kind of reaction, even a rock, to any change.

What people shoud be asking, in this kind of 'ethical' experiment is whether an entity, animal, plant, rock, paper or scissor, actually suffers through the responses occured through our reaping of it.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:42 AM
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Almighty bob's answer is kinda what I was thinking. Pain is merely a reaction the body uses to tell the mind that something is wrong. The worse the problem is the worse the pain is. All living things have a response system like this, but it is different depending on the Kingdom the Species is a member of. While animalia feel a horrible sensation ('pain'), plantae may only release a few chemicals that alert the rest of the plant to the danger, which could perhaps be likened to someone shouting out that a fire is coming, rather than feeling the flames on your skin.

The fact is, plants don't need an elaborate sensory system like us, just like plants don't need eyeballs.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 09:23 AM
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"Ah man, if fruit 'n' veg feels pain, what would the vegetarians do? Bread, water and crackers mmmm!"


water, dirt and air........that's all they can eat.........and maybe some slime....mm mmmm yummy slime.......


i guess plants feel pain........as does every other living organic thing on this planet does



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by watch_the_rocks
Pain is merely a reaction the body uses to tell the mind that something is wrong. The fact is, plants don't need an elaborate sensory system like us, just like plants don't need eyeballs.


I think the above statement is almost certainly true. However, it doesn't diminish the unpleasantness of pain. If you have any doubt, pinch yourself hard. Then tell yourself what you fee is "merely a reaction!" There is more to the pain than just chemicals and neurotransmitters. Yet it is clear that chemicals are part of it (otherwise painkillers would not work.) It seems to have a dual nature.

To me, the essential question here is, where do "qualia" come from? If we can answer that, we can tell whether plants feel pain, and probably other questions such as what is consciousness, and what is the nature of God?

#

First, to define "qualia": There is plenty of info available on the web, but my favorite definition is that "qualia" are "sensations", such as the feelings of pain and pleasure, confusion, humor, happiness, sadness, interest, apathy, shape, color and everthing else that we experience in isolation.

Qualia have at least three certain properties.

(1) First, there are definite polarities to some qualia (happy vs sad -- painful vs pleasurable, and so on.) I think the previous post by Watch The Rocks, which says that pain is an indication that something is wrong, is spot-on truth. The polarity appears to be associated with "entropy", where disrupting order causes negative (unpleasant) qualia and reversing entropy causes positive (pleasant) qualia.

(2) Second, qualia exist only in the "now". You may recall an experience of pain, or anticipate pain, without actually feeling pain. So qualia appear to be something separate from time, in that they don't exist in the future or the past. Since we have no clear understanding of why time exists, this doesn't help us very much in understanding qualia. I'm still trying to figure this out, but I am making progress.

(3) THIRD AND MOST STRANGE is the fact that, whatever entity is experiencing qualia cannot share that experience with others directly. Pain and pleasure is completely private to you. I cannot tell whether you experience it (although I assume you do) or you are merely faking that pain or pleasure you are experiencing.

This last point is why this topic about plants is so pertinent. We can assume that dogs and cats experience pain and pleasure. Also fish, reptiles, insects, etc. There is some evidence that single celled animals experience pain. For example -- stick a microscopic pin into an amoeba and it definitely LOOKS like it is in painful shock!

As to whether plants experience pain -- I don't know, of course. (I can't tell whether YOU, the reader, experience pain.) But I too have seen the movie that Agent Violet started this thread discussing. I've also seen time-lapse photography that shows how plants will physically move to the sunlight, and trees will move away from a barbwire fence. It looks like they are experiencing some sort of qualia.

Perhaps plants experience sensations other than pain? Perhaps a plant feels ecstasy when a bee pollinates its flower?

#

So I guess, with this rambling, I haven't contributed much to actually answering the original question -- I will make a guess: plants do feel pain, pleasure, and other qualia. However it is a very mild form of sensation that is very, very slow in coming about. Perhaps it is merely a slight "tingle" at being cut down and cooked.

I certainly hope that is the case! If it is otherwise, then there is probably a lot more pain in the universe than I would be happy knowing about.

I am gradually formulating a theory of consciousness, based upon what I have been reading here and in the ATS Research forums. I will start a thread if I make any substantial progress. (Don’t hold your breath on that one.)



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 02:37 AM
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Originally posted by almighty bob
From a scientific perspective, anything that lives 'feels pain', i.e. will trigger a reaction to anything that disrupts its life-process. Moreover, all things will trigger some kind of reaction, even a rock, to any change.


Almighty bob is correct. Such is expected of one who is almighty.

Plants reach for sunlight over a period of time imperceptible to humans. Our sight and consciousness is fast, and moves a thousand times in the blink of an eye. Plants, as I see them, have a very different consciousness than animals. They are driven by pure, unfettered life force, whereas an animal or person is given conscious control of a lifeform (body) and all kinds of senses. Do plants have the sense of pain? I think in the same way that a person feels a cut, a plant experiences a gash in itself as a source of pain or negativity. But is it conscious like we are, does it experience the moment of the cut? Not necessarily, because it has a consciousness riding a totally different time-frame than humans do.

Plants have been proven to communicate images and electromagnetic information between themself. They survive on light for a reason (light = information). Plants are living and experiencing the same electric universe as we are.

Just one article about plant communication

Any disturbance in this electromagnetic field (i.e. their body and spirit body) is just as 'painful' as it would be to a human, that is, we most definitely notice and experience repercussions for injury. I think plants and humans react and 'think' differently. Plants, having proven some form of consciousness between themselves, might actually transmit 'pain' to one another as a form of survival. This would definitely fit in with the idea of Gaia.

All things should be considered living and part of the planet, our manufactured world leads us to believe that any life that isn't human is different than we are. All things are consciousness.

Good thread


[edit on 6-1-2008 by NewWorldOver]



posted on Jan, 6 2008 @ 03:56 AM
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One thing so many boring and unoriginal anti-vegetarians seem to miss is this..

Plants lack a central nervous system. They do not move away from the supposed sense of pain. Plants are meant to be eaten. I learned this in primary school -> The animal eats the plant. The seeds are passed and with a bit of fertilizer they land and hopefully become a new plant.

Animals on the other hand.. have a CNS, feel pain and move away from it and surprisingly do not reproduce if eaten. All animals have evolved to seek pleasure and avoid pain. Pain can lead to death which certainly affects the ability of the species to continue.

Metal even feels pain according to the original article, .. sheesh, so now my sustainable organic lettuce farm becomes a hot bed of torture and cruelty because I use a hoe that I made from scrap and the lettuce is decapitated at harvest time. Furthermore, if I were Muslim, how the heck would I have a halal lettuce!?

When a plant is stressed, it releases a chemical called ethylene. Some scientists measured levels of ethylene released from stressed plants by “listening” to them using lasers until a certain frequency was measured. APPARENTLY it sounded like screaming..


Wiki
Environmental and biological triggers of ethylene
Environmental cues can induce the biosynthesis of the plant hormone. Flooding, drought, chilling, wounding, and pathogen attack can induce ethylene formation in the plant.


Phew, for a moment I thought I'd have to go eat fish *rolls eyes*

[edit on 6-1-2008 by StevenHendren]



posted on Feb, 2 2008 @ 05:34 PM
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Here is a related article I just stumbled upon. Do animals other than human beings feel empathy?



Church first trained rats to obtain food by pressing a lever. He found that if a rat pressing the lever saw another rat in a neighboring cage receive a shock from an electrified cage floor, the first rat would interrupt its activity--a remarkable result. Why shouldn't the rat continue to get food and simply ignore the other animal's flinching?


See source here...

It looks to me like lower animals can, indeed, feel this emotion that is normally thought of as applying only to humans. It is a mysterious world, and there is a lot to still discover.

EDIT: Back on topic, perhaps qualia is a universal thing. Looks like rats have empathy. Maybe plants do too! I know it sounds strange, but we don't really know what qualia are, so I don't think anyone can disprove me here....

[edit on 2-2-2008 by Buck Division]



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 01:46 PM
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reply to post by Buck Division
 


Interesting but can we vouch for its credibility?
Like was there a control experiment done also?
was there only the 2 rats?
I would want a little more thorough like 5 experiments with 10 rats before i took it for anything more than face value.



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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I remember reading a L.Watason book onnce, Super Nature if I rember right. He talked about an experiment in which the hooked a lie detector the up to a plant. If he dipped the leaf in boiling water it registered on the machine. He later done an experiment when a certain individual would come in the room and drop boiling living shrimps into water again the machine would pick a respnse up from the plant. The plant became accustom to this persons voice and would even read a response after a while from jut hearing his voice.
May all live feels pain and a certain amount of compassion to all life.

kx



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by joesomebody
Plants aren't sentient. They are living, and there are simply signals interpreted by the tree/apple. The tree saps over the place the apple was, etc...



I can't remember the links to the research, but there was a thread on this recently. For non-sentient life they sure do have remarkable abilities. From the research, which was done with control groups and widely spaced greenhouses. Each person had a tool, like a guitar, a watering can, a pair of scissors, which they attacked and ruthlessly destroyed some plants with. All the plants in all the greenhouses responded instantly, in a kind of psi communication, and empath response. They were hooked up to machines for monitoring. In the end, when all the same people were there without their tools, the guy without the scissors emerged and all the plants responded by freaking out again. They recognized him. So much for non-sentient life. These were just greenhouse plants, so it seems we've been surrounded by intelligent life all along but alas, humans are too brain dead to be curious, conduct experiments too much, and notice.

Now there was another thread on here about an aspirin like substance being produced in plant life as soon as they were deprived of nutrients, water and started to show signs of suffering. This implies they feel pain. Of course, our aspirin comes from plants.



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 03:03 PM
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I have witnessed a small patch of trees being half way dozed down. After clearing half of the trees the other half left still standing were tilting away from the dozed area. It is as if they knew smehow of their impending doom. Do they feel pain? I do not know. Do they know half their buddies died? I would have to say yes by what I have seen. I would like to see a scientific study with pictures on this.



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 03:07 PM
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Ha,Ha - i stumbled across this comic strip from 2006 for new year2007 when i was looking for new year pics on new years eve this year:




[edit on 3-1-2009 by MCoG1980]



posted on Jan, 3 2009 @ 03:14 PM
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Originally posted by agent violet
So I remember being in a biology class not too long ago and seeing an old black and white film dealing with plants and their awareness of a sense of pain. The film had a lead character, possibly a scientist of some sort, and what the 'scientist' did was attach some sort of (electrical nodes?) to apples that were on a tree.



Here is something simular or the same, the experiments of Cleve Backster



I realy recommend the book "secret life of plants" by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird.
It covers a lot of research in this direction and i personaly think there are amazing discoveries done in this field that are mostly unknown to the large public.

Here is some more info i posted. Secret life of plants



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