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Venezuelans reject Chavez's socialism

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posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by Raoul Duke
 


So we should ally ourselves with despots that aren't cooperative with our interests?


First Chavez is not a despot, he has won numerous elections to stay in power... Secondly I don't know what your interests are, I think neo-colonialism should come to an end, and that is precisely what Chavez is trying to do.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by Raoul Duke]




posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
And why do you so desperately want this thread to turn into another Bush-bashing thread? That's only been done about ten thousand times here on ATS.

Discuss the topic at hand: the Venezuelan election. For other topics, please start another thread.


Whether or not we live in a democracy, has to do with whether we can point fingers at others. Thus the Bush bashing...



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 02:43 PM
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Let's not forget either that Chavez tried to pull a coup himself once.
The spending on social welfare in Venezuala is not as great as advertised, and wealth re-distribution seems to be headed toward the government, not the people; They are now standing in food lines as the normal market mechanisms for distribution have been declared illegal by the government.

As to his friends, Putin is far closer to him than Bush, having just signed over a deal to sell Mig-29's and a million Kalishnikovs. And I can expect the argument that his buddies in Belarus, Zimbawe, Iran, and Cuba are great believers in popular sovereignty from the drug-addled left wing anti-anticommunist posters are about to come out as well. Yes, I am inviting you to go live there.

He is a scapegoating demogogue that will end up getting what he wants by other means. I, too see the record low turn out and razor thin margin as indicating the actual vote against was much higher, and he has decided to bide his time.

"I smell sulfer here!"



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 02:55 PM
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Originally posted by aaaaa
Let's not forget either that Chavez tried to pull a coup himself once.
The spending on social welfare in Venezuala is not as great as advertised, and wealth re-distribution seems to be headed toward the government, not the people; They are now standing in food lines as the normal market mechanisms for distribution have been declared illegal by the government.


The previous right wing governments did little for the people...


As to his friends, Putin is far closer to him than Bush, having just signed over a deal to sell Mig-29's and a million Kalishnikovs.


Are you delusion? Putin is closer to him than Bush? Bush and Chavez hate each other, of course he's closer to Putin... Are you suggesting Venezuela can't have an army? The United States is the hegemonic power in the region, if I were Chavez I'd be trying to go nuclear...


And I can expect the argument that his buddies in Belarus, Zimbawe, Iran, and Cuba are great believers in popular sovereignty from the drug-addled left wing anti-anticommunist posters are about to come out as well. Yes, I am inviting you to go live there.


I don't understand much of this.


He is a scapegoating demogogue that will end up getting what he wants by other means. I, too see the record low turn out and razor thin margin as indicating the actual vote against was much higher, and he has decided to bide his time.


You could say this about the last two Presidential elections in the U.S...


"I smell sulfer here!"


Is Bush around?

[edit on 3-12-2007 by Raoul Duke]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke
The Chavez haters can't have it both ways. Which is it now is he an elected president or a dictator? Wouldn't a dictator have 'won' this referendum?



Sour grapes?

Attempted dictator.

Well, the world was watching, so chavez probably had to keep his dirty tricks to a minimum. In other words, if not for his big (no huge) mouth, he might still have won his dictatorship.

But before feeling too smug either way, let's see if chavez has really let his people speak on this issue - or is he even now making his moves?


[edit on 12/3/2007 by centurion1211]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 03:32 PM
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The election in Venezuela are probably one of the best if not the best in the world (we cant say the same about the US...), the people actually rejected the socialism even more than Hugo Chavez. He lost the election on friday night when he spoke about hate and rifles. Other than that he really did a lot for Venezuela.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by Raoul Duke
 


This is what happens when you someone is elected, that steals your life saving, and putting it in governments bank account, Shuts down most of the jobs and tells the people my jobs or starve and of they reward him, i think russia learned that lesson the hard way, from cuba they in boats, mexico over and the fence, The venezuelans buy plane tickets to mexico or fly here. Ain't America Great, Its our children like in europe to bring the walls down.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 05:00 PM
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After wading though a lot of BS disinformation and Capitalistic Big Money Back-Slapping, I found a very good article on the defeat and aftermath of the referendum.


Hugo Chavez' narrow defeat in the referendum was the result of large-scale abstentions by his supporters. 44 percent of the electorate stayed at home. Why? First, because they did not either understand or accept that this was a necessary referendum. The measures related to the working week and some other proposed social reforms could be easily legislated by the existing parliament. The key issues were the removal of restrictions on the election of the head of government (as is the case in most of Europe) and moves towards 'a socialist state.' On the latter there was simply not enough debate and discussion on a grassroots level.

Source

I had a feeling that this referendum with simply too large to go through at once. It should have been broken into smaller pieces and gone through multiple votes. He also could have passed several elements through parliament without the need for a vote, but I think he's very aware that if he were to do so, he'd be giving his opponents ammo to cry "Dictator!".

All in all I'm saddened, but not surprised, to see this defeat.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 06:09 PM
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reply to post by BitRaiser
 


maybe this question will show my ignorance, but...who's to say that the 7million or so abtainments were chavez supporters? do we know that it wouldnt have stayed a 51/49 split and not made any difference?

just curious



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 06:44 PM
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reply to post by Damocles
 


Naw... that's not ignorance, it's a good question.
In fact, it's one I'd ask myself.
I have no idea how they figure that the majority of absentees were pro-Chavez.
Point is, that was a very high rate of absentee for the nation. As I said, Personally felt there was too much on the ballot. It would be very hard, as a voter, to understand all the items and what makes them a good thing... especially when you've got the mass-media working overtime to protect their self interests by demonizing the breakfast cereal that Chavez had that morning (unless that cereal had an advertising contract with them, of course.)

I do hope he tries again with smaller referendums and by passing the less controversial items directly to parliament.

If he can't get term limits removed, he'd better start grooming someone he can trust to replace him... as soon as he's out of office, the Capitalist Dogpack is going to descend on that nation once again.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 07:49 PM
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reply to post by BitRaiser
 


You actually think it's a good thing for chavez to have the term limits removed so he could be a dictator for life? What rational could there be for that type of thinking for the leader of any country? And aren't you one of the people here worried about Bush becoming a dictator? Astounding ...

Aw, here we go. No doubt the Republican run CIA got their call tree to somehow only call the chavez supporters all across venezuela and tell them that the election was really next week.


You heard that conspiracy theory here first!!!

I mean otherwise, how could this decent, kind and wonderful leader (chavez) somehow have lost???? And you know all the exit polls showed chavez winning - just like kerry.


[edit on 12/3/2007 by centurion1211]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 08:30 PM
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Originally posted by bone13
reply to post by Raoul Duke
 


This is what happens when you someone is elected, that steals your life saving, and putting it in governments bank account, Shuts down most of the jobs and tells the people my jobs or starve and of they reward him, i think russia learned that lesson the hard way, from cuba they in boats, mexico over and the fence, The venezuelans buy plane tickets to mexico or fly here. Ain't America Great, Its our children like in europe to bring the walls down.


I have no idea what you're talking about, you obviously don't understand the current situation in present day Venezuela well at all.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 08:58 PM
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All the allegations of Chavez being a thug, are funny; because to me he looks more like Mother Theresa than Hitler:


"Mission Miracle cares for more than 1000 from Peru" (Prensa MinCI, Aporrea.org, 25/11/07 )
"The solidarity programme the Bolvarian Republic of Venezuela is carrying out in different parts of the Americas, known as Mission Miracle has also been happening in Peru where more than 1000 people have benefited since assistance to the Peruvian people began in 2006."

"Venezuelan shipment of 16,000 barrels of gas/diesel averts Guyana fuel crisis", (Stabroek News of Guyana, VHeadline.com, 21/11/2007) The Venezuelan embassy in Guyana noted, "With this delivery of fuel, Venezuela ratifies its politics of cooperation and solidarity to guarantee direct benefits for the people of Guyana and the other Caribbean countries. Likewise, it shows its disposition to work for the economic and social integration of the people of Latin America and the Caribbean."

"Honduras will import Venezuelan fuel on preferential terms", (Prensa Latina, Rebelion.org, 26-11-2007 )
"Honduras will import Venezuelan fuels on preferential terms allowing a better use of financial resources for social policies, Presidency Minister Yani Rosenthal reported today. She announced that the authorities of the PETROCARIBE company will be contacted tomorrow to speed up talks. The purchase of these fuels, she said, will be for two years in the amount of US$750 million with half of that amount paid via a credit line extended by the government of Hugo Chavez. Rosenthal stressed the benefits of PETROCARIBE as a development initiative aimed at helping countries like Honduras in a vulnerable financial situation get access to fuels on preferential terms. The official emphasised this will contribute to a more efficient use of cash resources for mainly socially-oriented activities and will help relieve the impact of the high price of crude oil in the world market."

"Venezuela donates US$16 million for massive purchase of rice and beans", (La Gente, RadioPrimerisima.com, 23/11/2007)
"Venezuela donated the funds to alleviate the effects of Hurricane Felix and heavy rains lasting two weeks which affected farming. Roger Romero, Director of the National Food Supply company told AFP, "Part of these funds are being used to cope with the rising price spiral in basic foods.....We are working on a campaign to supply direct to the population via the creation of solidarity-based fair trade networks that will work temporarily until the market stabilizes" Romero added."

Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


For more on Venezuela's/Chavez's humanitarian works: www.zmag.org...



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:30 PM
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The Chavez story is fascinating. The fact that he was put back in office by the people, after the 2002 coup, is amazing and unprecedented.

Assuming Chavez is not a corporate tool, He most likely pushed for this referendum to protect Venezuela from having a USA type of democratic election, where the person who wins the election is not necessarily the person with the most votes.

Chavez obviously knows that "democracy" is the biggest scam ever.

Democracy is mob rules. it allows the lowest common denominator "fear" to sway the people. A democracy is a state where 49% of the people are told what to do by 51% of the people.

The United States was formed as a constitutional republic. There is no mention of democracy in any founding documents.

Democracy is socialism. The people of the US were swindled by FDR in the 1930s into becoming democratic republic.

The Truman administration sealed the deal by imposing term limits.
Just in case any president ran on a platform of constitutional reform.

I am not as familiar with the alternative choices for political leaders in Venezuela, so if not Chavez than who?



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:38 PM
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This is good news. The dictator wannabe suffered a blow but I doubt it will stop him.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:42 PM
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I am scratching my head out of confusion.
If he had won the vote, people would have cried dictatorship and vote rigging.
He has lost the vote and for the same people he is dictator anyways? I mean..hello? If he really wanted to rig the result he could have done it without a sweat.
I think no matter what happens with Chavez, people will find something to say and call him a dictator, because CNN or the bush admn. said so or maybe because he takes a stand against the current US govt.

Anyways I think he is a good man, he is doing the right thing going through a democratic way to stay in power. There is nothing wrong for a leader to stay in power if the people are behind him.
Also I am actually happy he lost the vote, it proved the world that he is a genuine and wants the approval of the Venezuelans.



[edit on 3-12-2007 by TheOracle]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:55 PM
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Originally posted by TheOracle
I am scratching my head out of confusion.
If he had won the vote, people would have cried dictatorship and vote rigging.
He has lost the vote and for the same people he is dictator anyways? I mean..hello?


Hello, is right, it's irrational and makes no sense. I think I'm through with this, 'debate' the Chavez haters are like a bunch of combat drones...


If he really wanted to rig the result he could have done it without a sweat.
I think no matter what happens with Chavez, people will find something to say and call him a dictator, because CNN or the bush admn. said so or maybe because he takes a stand against the current US govt.


The funny part I've been hearing from a lot of the anti-Chavez crowd is that supposedly he'll win the next round (so they're actually rooting for him now!)... He had this loss up his sleeve, just to throw people off... So he can't win with those who hate him to the core, even though he's a good decent man! One of the few nation's leaders who puts his people at a higher standard than large corporations, and the wealthy...


Anyways I think he is a good man, he is doing the right thing going through a democratic way to stay in power. There is nothing wrong for a leader to stay in power if the people are behind him.
Also I am actually happy he lost the vote, it proved the world that he is a genuine and wants the approval of the Venezuelans.


Obviously not to those who minds are closed like a trap door...


[edit on 3-12-2007 by Raoul Duke]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke

Originally posted by jsobecky

He's not out of office yet, so I wouldn't be so quick to congratulate him. He could just as easily manufacture a "crisis" and impose martial law whenever he chooses.


So you're going to try and have it both ways then? He's a dictator, yet he loses referendums. Interesting, I wouldn't have thought one would be so brazen as to make this argument...


I wouldn't say he's a dictator, and given his own coup attempt he's hardly a democrat.

But he is an A1 Prime hypocrite. It's okay for him to stage a coup against the elected government, but when it's done against him it's an anti-democratic, Bush-backed, CIA plot?

It's fine for him to call world-leaders "fascist" and "the devil", but when others have unkind words for him they are outdated "neo-colonialists"?

He's allowed to continually interrupt the prime minister of Spain, but when King Juan Carlos tells him to shut up it is the monarch who is rude?

The only one trying to have it both ways is Chavez. Just like all cheap demagogues.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by centurion1211
 


If you ever think of something useful to say, beyond the usual ignorant, xenophobic rhetoric that you spout all over the place, let me know.

Until then, welcome to my ignore list.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by BitRaiser
reply to post by centurion1211
 


If you ever think of something useful to say, beyond the usual ignorant, xenophobic rhetoric that you spout all over the place, let me know.

Until then, welcome to my ignore list.


The fact that this (name calling, etc.) is all you can respond with I will take as you waving the white flag of logical surrender. Your "sword" please. Now please take your rightful place on the dung heap of history's losers.


[edit on 12/3/2007 by centurion1211]



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