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Venezuelans reject Chavez's socialism

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posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:01 AM
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Originally posted by Togetic
reply to post by Raoul Duke
 


You're correct. By definition, Chavez is not a dictator because he can't implement his policies. It might be argued that he is a populist dictator in the mold of Pinochet and Peron, but obviously he's not that populist.

But you gotta admit: dictator, president, potted plant, whatever his title is, the guy's not a good dude.


Actually no, he is a good man:


Shut Up (About) Chavez
by Paul Buchheit

It gets tiresome to hear the one-sided media coverage of Hugo Chavez. Yes, he’s authoritarian. He’s also abrasive, arrogant, stubborn, and all too human. But he knows what happened to leaders in Iran and Guatemala and Chile and Haiti over the past half-century when they tried to defy the western world by nationalizing oil and other industries. He’s influenced by the memory of the US-backed attempt to depose him in 2002. And he can see the effects of unregulated multinational companies in Nigeria, where in 2004 80% of the revenue from the oil industry went to only 1% of the population, and only 2% of Shell Oil’s employees were from the local population.

Chavez has alienated the wealthy, the business establishment, thousands of upper-class student protestors, and, perhaps worst of all for him, the media. But the mainstream media rarely speaks for the poor majority. Chavez has instituted a literacy program, land-acquisition policies that benefit the poor, job training for unskilled workers, free health care, and manufacturing cooperatives which give the poor an active role in business development. He was democratically elected, and recent polls still place him about 20 percentage points ahead of his nearest challenger.

The Venezuelan leader’s popularity is summarized by human rights activist Medea Benjamin:

“Walk through poor barrios in Venezuela and you’ll hear the same stories over and over. The very poor can now go to a designated home in the neighborhood to pick up a hot meal every day. The elderly have monthly pensions that allow them to live with dignity. Young people can take advantage of greatly expanded free college programs. And with 13,000 Cuban doctors spread throughout the country and reaching over half the population, the poor now have their own family doctors on call 24-hours a day.”

Opposition to Chavez comes from those with connections to the old political elite: the Venezuelan business community, the Chamber of Commerce (Fedecámaras), and the major union federation CTV, who used their control over the media to disparage Chavez for economic problems and communist ties. Many officials and journalists in the U.S. dismiss him as a troublesome dictator. An editor of the leading El Nacional newspaper said Chavez and his cabinet “just want to steal and get rich.” Even some of the Venezuelan poor resent his attempts to spread his influence with anti-poverty programs outside the country.


link to full article: www.commondreams.org...




posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:06 AM
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thats a good article to be sure...certainly tells another side of the story and thats always good for discussion.

but, doesnt the very last line say almost as much as the rest of the article?

could be me..dunno, need sleep soon i think



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:09 AM
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reply to post by Raoul Duke
 


Just like the poor dumb Germans and Hitler eh?



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:13 AM
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Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by Raoul Duke
 


Just like the poor dumb Germans and Hitler eh?


Oh now Chavez is Hitler. I've never heard anything about concentration camps in Venezuela... In fact that's because there are none.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:15 AM
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reply to post by Damocles
 


I've wondered about all the help Chavez gives to other Latin American countries myself. I honestly don't have a theory on why he specifically does it. Is it PR? Goodness of his heart? Maybe he wants countries to owe Venezuela favors? What are the other possible reasons?



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:17 AM
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reply to post by Raoul Duke
 


Now you're changing the subject. You accused me of being paternalistic because I felt the "poor, dumb" Venezuelans didn't know what kind of guy Chavez was. On the contrary, I think they know exactly what kind of guy he is- the one that's giving them free stuff, and punishing the haves. Envy and free stuff can cause one to be blinded to other issues. That and the 6hr work day, etc...



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:45 AM
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Populist leaders like Chavez need defeats like this to keep them in line - with the momentum he was building it was putting Venezuela on a slippery slope. And although he did win an electoral victory, it's important to remember that at the end of the day Hugo Chavez is a politician (one who was involved in a failed coup, too). I must say I was expecting one of his rants about the CIA interfering in the ballot or something, so kudos to him for recognising that the people (rightly) don't trust him or anyone else to run the country without term limits.

A good day for the people of Venezuela, I feel. The world and, more importantly, Chavez now know they will only be pushed so far.

[edit on 3/12/07 by Ste2652]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 09:46 AM
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Chavez is just another Third World People's Rajah who cynically manipulates communism and hysterical anti-Americanism / anti-Westernism to stay in power. He fears "globalism", which really means he fears trade because it threatens his absolute power. The most tyrannical dictators and regimes have always been the most isolationist. Cut off trade, cut off communications, firewall the internet, kick out those rotten gringos / firenghi and their corporations, then what? Go back to subsistence agriculture like in the "good old days" when it was an honour for peasants to starve for the Emperor.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 10:22 AM
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Well the people of Venezuela spoke Chavez should just follow the will of the people.

At least they have referendums, while in the mighty america presidents can be elected by the supreme court on hanging chads


And the voice of the people is hardly heard anymore.

BRAVO for Venezuela.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 10:36 AM
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke
(I believe he stole Ohio btw)...


Funny they seemed to have forgotten how to steal votes in 06

Convenience of opinion is one of the worst crimes you can perpetrate.

I forgot to add my 2 cents on this particular topic...

I have to admit, I did not believe this would ever be a "loss" for Chavez.
I believed he would have manufactured a win.

However my first reaction was that he probably lost by a landslide and didn't rig the votes enough, but then I would be as bad as some of the political whiners in the US.

So Props to Chavez.. until he manufactures a coup to stay in power of course



[edit on 3-12-2007 by gormly]

[edit on 3-12-2007 by gormly]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 10:37 AM
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It's good of Chavez to admit defeat. At least he didn't "do a Bush" and take it to the courts. A dictator would have...



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 10:45 AM
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reply to post by gormly
 


It's funny how Kerry didn't seem to think that Ohio was stolen. If only he'd listen to more CTers, he might've changed his tune too.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 10:57 AM
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reply to post by Raoul Duke
 


Raoul, I don't think people are saying he has become a full fledged dictator but when you say things like "only traitors will vote against reform" and do some of the things he has you can see what path he is headed on.

He has been accumulating power for his personal vision of Ven., not even his party's vision. He has cultivated a "cult of personality" rather than foster a polictical movement. That is his biggest failure and the reason he needed a referandum to continue to rule. It's obvious he wanted to stay in power longer than the constituion dictated. Why couldn't he hand the reins to someone in his party? We will probably see the Putin model followed here when 2012 rolls around. Giving up the title but not the power.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by pavil]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 12:12 PM
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reply to post by Raoul Duke
 



Originally posted by Raoul Duke

Originally posted by jsobecky

He's not out of office yet, so I wouldn't be so quick to congratulate him. He could just as easily manufacture a "crisis" and impose martial law whenever he chooses.


So you're going to try and have it both ways then? He's a dictator, yet he loses referendums. Interesting, I wouldn't have thought one would be so brazen as to make this argument...

You shouldn't put words into other people's mouths. Makes your argument look silly.




Originally posted by Raoul Duke

Originally posted by BlueRaja

Saddam Hussein used to get 99.9% approval ratings too, of course the alternative was torture or death.


I don't understand your point. This vote was 51% to 49...

I tend to agree with the other poster who suggested that the actual margin was much wider than this. But close margins make the ensuing "recounts" and "nullifications" much easier for the gullible to swallow.


Originally posted by Raoul Duke
Maybe, no one's election means as much as it might show. Look at Bush's approval rating since his re-election (I believe he stole Ohio btw)... This is paternalistic on your part. "Oh, those dumb poor Venezuelans don't know what a 'bad man' they've got leading their country".

This isn't about Bush, btw.




As for this:

The Venezuelan leader’s popularity is summarized by human rights activist Medea Benjamin:

“Walk through poor barrios in Venezuela and you’ll hear the same stories over and over. The very poor can now go to a designated home in the neighborhood to pick up a hot meal every day. The elderly have monthly pensions that allow them to live with dignity. Young people can take advantage of greatly expanded free college programs. And with 13,000 Cuban doctors spread throughout the country and reaching over half the population, the poor now have their own family doctors on call 24-hours a day.”

Opposition to Chavez comes from those with connections to the old political elite: the Venezuelan business community, the Chamber of Commerce (Fedecámaras), and the major union federation CTV, who used their control over the media to disparage Chavez for economic problems and communist ties. Many officials and journalists in the U.S. dismiss him as a troublesome dictator. An editor of the leading El Nacional newspaper said Chavez and his cabinet “just want to steal and get rich.” Even some of the Venezuelan poor resent his attempts to spread his influence with anti-poverty programs outside the country.

13,000 Cuban doctors? What does that tell you?

Venezuela is undergoing a brain drain of epic proportions. Chavez is nationalizing (read: stealing) the country's industries and giving a pittance to the poor. And they think he is a savior because they get a bowl of gruel a day for free.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 12:45 PM
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I can't respond to the plethora of anti-Chavez drivel... I would have thought that people who are concerned about denying ignorance, and aware of the global conspiracy, would think a little more critically about what their government tells them. The only thing the United States cares about is what Chavez does with the oil. And he has been using it for social programs and other projects for the working class and poor. Not what the ruling class in the United States wants at all, but good IMO for the vast majority of Venezuelans...

Bush is allied with despots like Musharaff and Putin, why the condemnation of Venezuela and Chavez? Bush has condemned Musharaff on declaring a state of emergency, but he's been much less vociferous in his criticism of Musharaff.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by Raoul Duke]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 01:32 PM
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reply to post by Raoul Duke
 


So we should ally ourselves with despots that aren't cooperative with our interests?



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 01:53 PM
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And why do you so desperately want this thread to turn into another Bush-bashing thread? That's only been done about ten thousand times here on ATS.

Discuss the topic at hand: the Venezuelan election. For other topics, please start another thread.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 02:24 PM
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People thought Putin would quietly step down at the end of his term and allow democracy to proceed in Russia. We all see what he is doing now.

Chavez has plenty of time to follow Putin's lead if he so chooses.



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 02:24 PM
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People complain about Chavez, but the poor have never been so better. Free health care and education, control of the oil instead of private companies who are pro-American.

The elite ruined Venezuela and ignored the poor. That's why Chavez is popular among his people. Plus, capitalism has boomed under his government too, which the media will not discuss.

Let's not forget the coup d'etat against him, in which the coup elite planned to destroy democracy until the country found out Chavez never did resign and the media spun a lie.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by infinite]



posted on Dec, 3 2007 @ 02:30 PM
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reply to post by infinite
 


Oh, why to bring the good days that the poor are having when is so many elite corporate that are losing so much money since Chavez took hold of power and its country's resources.

Don't you see they are Suffffeeerrringggg.


My father visit Venezuela every other year with his church and interesting he said that Venezuela is as fine as ever.

But hey he is just an old man in his seventies what does he knows about the suffering of the elite now without control of Venezuela resources.




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