Venezuela's Chavez Says No Oil if U.S. Tries to Meddle in Vote

reply to post by BitRaiser


Of course I don't think America's brand of democracy is the only kind that works. But, the elections were rigged. Everyone of the politicians in the opposition resigned in either protest of fear. Now he consolidates power through intimidation. Of course he doesn't want meddling in his fake elections. Some day you may have yourself a wonderfull little dictator to. Maybe he drags your family off in the night. But, of course you wouldn't want any medling in your dictators affairs I'm sure. But, my truest dislike for him is in the area of terrorism. He has an island that he invites radical muslems to. Teaches them to speak spanish, gives them false documents and sends them to mexico. Where they promptly cross the american fronteer. So If a free and fair election would get rid of this low life I am all for it! He certainly doesn't mind medling in our affairs. he is dangerous and I for one want him stopped!

[edit on 12/3/2007 by rockets red glare]

My feelings on Chavez are basically my own perception of him. To me he comes off as a power hungry dictator. He uses his oil as a weapon against the US, using threats of cutting off supply to get his way. He seems to align himself with anyone who is anti-US.

I think he is correct in being concerned with the US meddling in his affairs. But when I see one man trying to amend his nations constitution for changes that would allow him more power and the option of being in power for ever, I get concerned. It is not unheard of for elections to be rigged, so if someone is corrupt enough in such a system it could have some serious repercussions.

The problem is that I can't make a fair observation of him because I have never been to Venezuela. All I can base my opinion on is either western propaganda that shows how evil he is, or his own propaganda which shows how saintly he is. I am guessing the truth lies in the middle.

Now, BitRaiser you obviously know more about him than I do. Your opinion of him should certainly hold more weight with people than mine does. I hope that you are right and that he really is a good guy that is out for the best interests of his people. I hope you can understand where I am coming from.

UPDATE

he didnt get it.. so much for the rigged elections.

CARACAS, Venezuela - President Hugo Chavez suffered a stinging defeat Monday in a vote on constitutional changes that would have let him run for re-election indefinitely
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Voters defeated the sweeping measures by a vote of 51 percent to 49 percent
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“This was a photo finish,” Chavez said immediately after the vote, adding that unlike past Venezuelan governments, his respects the people’s will.

www.msnbc.msn.com...

Democracy in action.
I wonder what the attempted coup leaders from 2002 would be doing right now, im sure it wouldnt be elections.

reply to post by turbokid


I am curious if he is going to blame the US for meddling in the election? Honestly, I am curious if the US didn't meddle in the election.

yeah, there is limited info out there right now, but im sure if he was going to blame the US he would have done it at the same time he was saying he respects the will of the people.
as far as US meddling i would say, if there was any, it was probably propaganda in their local media, leading folks to belive they would become like cuba, he is on a power grab, etc. Chavez gets beat up very hard by his local media. if the US was gonna meddle anywhere it would be there i think.

Ya know... I don't think he will blame the US.
He might blame US interests and those who support them, but not the US directly.

Thing is, there was simply too much on that ballot. Hopefully he will understand that his reforms were too sweeping, too much at once. I'd personally support just about everything on the ballot, but each item needs to be properly understood before you can see them as a good thing.

A couple Examples:
- Removing Term limits: Term limits are really not very democratic. I've said it before in this thread, but I'll say it again. If the people want to lawfully elect the same leader over and over, they should be allowed to. It's about freedom, isn't it? Shouldn't you have the freedom to vote for who you want without arbitrary rules to stop you. Also, term limits prevent large reforms. In Chavez's case, he is trying to bring Venezuela from an exploited capitalist vassal state to a socialist democracy nation and hub of a free South America. That's gonna take some time. Term limits ensure that the status quo will be maintained by removing any visionary from office before they can effect any real change.
- 6 Hours work day: Venezuela still has a very serious employment problem. Thing is, it's a rich country, but only a tiny fraction of the population controls any real wealth. Much more so than for us Westerners. The elite Oil Barons have been running the show for so long that they've created this upper crust that simply dominates everything. A few lucky people get to work as service and servant people for the wealthy, but since the wealthy population is so small, there's only a very few limited jobs available. The rest are perty much dirt poor. By cutting the work day down to 6 hours, it forces increased employment. The employers have to hire more people to fill the same amount of time. This means that more people get to earn a living.

As to those who are afraid of socialism... I totally fail to understand the connection between socialism and less freedom. Do you really measure your freedom only in terms of you capital wealth?

The only thing a socialist society restricts is you ability to rape the system (and your neighbors) for your own selfish interests.

AS I pointed out, Canada is a Socialist Democracy. While I have a bone or two to pick with our administration (and have had many over the years) we haven't been taken over by any Dictators. In fact, we seem to be doing just fine.

Personally, I wish Chavez was hear to lead my country.
His reforms here would be amazing.

Originally posted by BitRaiser
As to those who are afraid of socialism... I totally fail to understand the connection between socialism and less freedom. Do you really measure your freedom only in terms of you capital wealth?

It's because a lot of people can't tell the difference between socialism and communism. The two terms have been used interchangeably for so long that the distinction has been blurred.

Originally posted by Karlhungis
Now, BitRaiser you obviously know more about him than I do. Your opinion of him should certainly hold more weight with people than mine does. I hope that you are right and that he really is a good guy that is out for the best interests of his people. I hope you can understand where I am coming from.

Meh, I've just done a lot of research and reading.

My brother was also there not too long ago and had some very interesting stories to tell from the people of Venezuela. Much of what he told me really made me stop and think... and is likely why I started reading up on the area.

The truth is, the people really love the guy and he's done a lot for them.

I also happen to believe in his vision. I do believe that a socialism can be made to work... and more so than Canada. I believe it is a more moral form of Democracy since where Capitalism rewards those individuals. who rape, pillage, and exploit, Socialism rewards you for working towards the betterment of everyone.

I just don't think that basing a socio-political system on greed is a very good idea... and that is what Western Capitalism is all about.

There's got to be a better way and I'm all in favor of world leaders who are brave enough to seek it.

Originally posted by DINSTAAR
I think he is a power hungry person. He wants to stifle the individual and remove freedoms for his own personal gain.

Ah... what brings you to that conclusion? I've not seen anything to support such a claim.

What he's doing it leveling things out and giving back to the people what should rightfully belong to them... the wealth of their own nation.

His amendments will allow him to be president for life if his people vote for him,

Only if they vote for him.
What's wrong with that? Isn't that the core of democracy?
As long as the voting remains fair (remember, previous claims of unfair voting have been made because he encouraged to poor to vote), I don't see how you can call the removal of term limits an infraction of freedom.

but if he controls the wealth of the country as well as the media, he is already a shoo-in. He can now easily take control of the media if he just demonizes the people that own it.

First off, he doesn't control the media. The mass media in Venezuela is VERY anti Chavez. the medial is owned almost entirely by the elite who grew up by milking the oil revenues of the country and hording it all for themselves. They are very much against a leader who would give those oil spoils to everyone equally.

A Dictator would have shout them down... through force if necessary. Close their TV stations, ban their news papers, and kill those who continue to make noise. Chavez hasn't done that. He's tolerated the bad press. Makes jokes about it. And despite the disinformation assault, he still manages to get through to the people.

Basically, I do not like Chavez because he is against individual freedom.

He's not against freedom... he's against the rampent greed and corruption that has come to define Western Capitalism. His belief is that if you are a productive member of the nation, you should get the benefits of that nation, rather than a few greedy scumbuckets taking everything for themselves.

So yeah... I guess he is against the freedom to be a greedy scumbucket. Ya know what, though?
So am I.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
It's because a lot of people can't tell the difference between socialism and communism. The two terms have been used interchangeably for so long that the distinction has been blurred.

Oh yeah.
That little gem of disinformation that has been pounded relentlessly in American heads for... ah... how long? 60 years?

Yup... this is certainly an intentional and fostered bit of ignorance.
Capitalism is terrified of Socialism because Socialism can work... and it would rob the disgustingly wealthy of the ability to continuously exploit the impoverished.

It has it's own set of obstacles and pitfalls, but I honestly believe it's a more moral system... and the only way that we can truly move on towards better futures.

Edit: FYI, I have had a couple or three pints of Guinness. If I'm rambling... ah... that's why.

[edit on 3-12-2007 by BitRaiser]

reply to post by BitRaiser

First off, he doesn't control the media.

That is exactly what I said, but because the media in his country are controlled by anti-Chavez folks, it would give him a reason to take it over. I believe that he will.

What's wrong with that? Isn't that the core of democracy?
As long as the voting remains fair (remember, previous claims of unfair voting have been made because he encouraged to poor to vote), I don't see how you can call the removal of term limits an infraction of freedom.

Democracy is a joke. Democracy is not interchangeable with freedom.

He's not against freedom... he's against the rampent greed and corruption that has come to define Western Capitalism. His belief is that if you are a productive member of the nation, you should get the benefits of that nation, rather than a few greedy scumbuckets taking everything for themselves.

Instead of the rampant greed and corruption in Capitalism, he is replacing it with rampant greed and corruption of a socialist state.

So yeah... I guess he is against the freedom to be a greedy scumbucket. Ya know what, though?
So am I.

What is freedom if we only give it to the people that we agree with? Is that even freedom at all?

He is a power hungry person (See his attempted military coup attempt in 1992).

Originally posted by DINSTAAR
He is a power hungry person (See his attempted military coup attempt in 1992).

Yup. Reading up on that coup is a very good idea for everyone...
Wiki entry
Indeed, a man who would lead the people to rise up against a corrupt elite class that is killing the nation to line their pockets MUST be an even power-hungry man!


Just like that evil George Washington fellow who was branded an upstart and criminal despot in UK press.

I'm curious... if Democracy is a Joke, Capitalism is corrupt, and Socialism is evil, what do you suggest? Don't tell me you're one of those Libertarianists...

I'm curious... if Democracy is a Joke, Capitalism is corrupt, and Socialism is evil, what do you suggest? Don't tell me you're one of those Libertarianists...

Individualist Anarchist actually, though libertarian is close. It's is not capitalism that is corrupt, but the fact that our state (and the Venezuelan state) is too big for capitalism to work. What you get is a concoction of the worst of both worlds (capitalism and socialism).

I do not believe Chavez to be a freedom fighter, like George Washington. I believe he is just replacing one failing government with another.

From what I gather, you are a socialist. Our views differ hugely, but you asked me why I do not like Chavez and I told you. We will never agree on this matter, but I do think we could agree on one matter. That is how we as Americans or Canadians will interact with Chavez. I believe that instead of 'meddling' in the business of other SOVEREIGN countries, we should be trading, talking, maybe even disagreeing, but never arguing or fighting.
The fact is, America as a nation will tolerate countries like Myanmar and Pakistan but we go after Chavez. Chavez in my opinion is bad, but the oligarchy that is in charge in Myanmar is exponentially worse. Our American foreign policy is disingenuous.

Only thing I know is that I'd rather live under Chavez than Neocons =)