Iran Didn't Spark a Middle East Nuclear Arms Race, It's Joining the One Israel Started

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Axis of evil, 3 nations that frequently use there power to control, coerce to invade other nations, perhaps you could name 3 others that do same and that work together.

If we go by that logic, you have to admit, a dozen other countries could be added to it. China, Russia, France, Germany to name a few?

You see what I'm getting at now?

[edit on 1-12-2007 by infinite]

utterly amazing - someone proves you wrong infite so you *click* ignore? so sad - cry me a river.

Infinite, no your wrong, to compare Russia or France to the US is patently wrong, America is pursueing PNAC and the only reason why its backing Israel is because the Zionists control America.

The point is exactly that, its got nothing to do with what Iran may or may not do, its the globalsisation of any nation that does not tow the American line plus they have plenty of natural reources just ripe for the stealing as has happened in Iraq.

No, Harlequin, you proved nothing to me. You showed me nothing. In all the threads you've replied to me, nothing in the case of evidence has given to me to back up claims.

Just personal attacks against me.

All you'ved done is accused me of being paid to post lies, THAT'S why you are on ignore. All you do is attack my character, countless threads of ATS in which you've followed me around.

If you cannot handle someone given you a view from the otherside, and pointing out the Israeli's are different from their government policy, it's your problem and not mine.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Infinite, no your wrong, to compare Russia or France to the US is patently wrong, America is pursueing PNAC and the only reason why its backing Israel is because the Zionists control America.

I disagree, the idea of ZOG is a joke now.
Zionist do not control America. It's an old fashion 1900's view Europe has. I'd advised any ATS member to stay away from that theory, only extremists believe that rubbish.

Christian Zionists may influence American foreign policy, that's a different matter. The current administration has disagreed with Israel, especially over the settlement movement.

As for Russia, it's becoming a dictatorship, whatever your views are on President Bush (mine are pretty bad ) he is nothing like Putin. The French are far from perfect too, especially on their peacekeeping role in Africa (I shall make a thread on that one day, very alarming stuff).

PNAC isn't Zionist influenced. I've read the document and yes you are right about the doctrine is being purused on the international stage

Originally posted by magicmushroom
The point is exactly that, its got nothing to do with what Iran may or may not do, its the globalsisation of any nation that does not tow the American line plus they have plenty of natural reources just ripe for the stealing as has happened in Iraq.

Ah, now globalisation, that's an interesting theory.

Take it from me, it has nothing to do with America. It's above them, we are talking United Nations level. It may seem like it's all for America, but wait until the North American Union comes.

Then we'll see who REALLY controls globalisation.

[edit on 1-12-2007 by infinite]

Originally posted by infinite
Still, don't make claims that Iran has never been involved in invading another nation then.

[...]

How am I clutching straws? I've always tried to give a balance view towards Israel on this site, especially focusing on the normal Israeli's who most people on ATS think are Zionists.

Modern Iran (not the Persian Empire before World War I) has never been involved in invading another nation (at least not overtly), neither has it been the aggressor. That's why it appeared like you were clutching at straws with your mention of the Persian Empire and the Iran-Iraq War in regards to Iranian aggression.

I'm all for balanced views, but let's not misrepresent the facts, okay? Besides, how far back into history should we go? You know that path can go on forever... all the way to Old Testament times. That time period however is not exactly relevant in the context of the current thread topic -- Middle East Nuclear Arms Race.

Back to the thread, the fact that Israel was and is a nation born out of terror and a nation that thanks to the American acquired nuke weapons that and the actions of its ruling body is what has destablised the ME and of cousre 90 plus years of UK interference and 40 plus with the yanks has not helped the ME either.

reply to post by infinite


what are you babbling on about now? Follow you around with personal attacks? please don`t massage your ego in such a way - your solo position on the falklands is enough to show that you are unwilling to look at the truth and you refuse to believe anything other than what you perceive (wrongly - as proven) to be your version of the truth.


check all my posts - i say quite directly that you must seperate the goverment of israel from religion - this is something the government of israel do not wasnt anyone to do , thus they throw around the words `anti sematic` when anyone criticises there operations.


and for the very final time:


He never said `wiped from the map` in his speach - stop posting the cnn / fox words as , well there wrong.


what he said (in Farsi)

Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad.

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".

Word by word translation:

Imam (Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods (Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-ye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).


Pay attention to what was said - he is talking about a regime change not war.

there have been regime changes without war - The removal of the Shah of Iran and the collapse of the Soviet Union are 2 such examples and specific ones he used in that `world without zionism` speech.


i am done here.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Infinite, you are sounding a bit hypocritical America is just posturing and thats ok but if Iran speaks out then they are a threat, how so.

With regard to the UK/Russia it was said in Parliament that if Russia attacked British forces then it would be met with a devastating respnse, the intent was made clearly.

Like Infinte said links. It is highly unlikely that the British would use nuclear weapons gains tthe Russians, as Russia's arsenal dwarves the British one and is even larger than the US. A devastating response probably meant a mssive conventioanl air attack against Russian forces in teh Balkans.
You really are taking liberties here with this, what you state just isn't suppoerted by fact.

still would be no threat to either the US or Isreal to say it would is just plain ignorant.

Hm, many people would say it would be ignrant to assume that Iran wouldn't be a threat with nuclear weapons. To say they wouldn't at all, is burying your hewad in the sand. Yet people like yourself say that the US and Israel etc are a threat with nuclear weapons

Axis of evil, 3 nations that frequently use there power to control, coerce to invade other nations, perhaps you could name 3 others that do same and that work together.

Completely incorrect.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Infinite, no your wrong, to compare Russia or France to the US is patently wrong, America is pursueing PNAC and the only reason why its backing Israel is because the Zionists control America.

You're joking right.I really hope this isn't your view, because you know it is false. You are from the crowd " Watch out nfor the Jooooss ".

Originally posted by Harlequin
what he said (in Farsi)

Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad.

The full quote translated directly to English:

"The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time".

Semantics. He is obviously talking about removing Jews from Jerusalem and gven their past stance on an Israeli state in Palestinw, he is obviously saying that the Jews should be removed. He isn't talking war just yet, because Israel would wipe he floor with Iran. You wait though, when Iran thinks they can take on Israel.

Originally posted by Randomdam
we shouldn't forget how they got on the map in the 1st place, and IMHO, i dont think thats an accurate analogy blueorder.

Au contraire- it's an excellent analogy. The fact that Israel may have nukes, has been a far more stabilizing factor in the decision making processes of its neighbors, than if it absolutely did not possess them.
Israel has every right to self defense, in a neighbor where every other country wants it's destruction. Iran, Iraq, Libya, etc.. would certainly not have as noble a goal in mind for procuring nukes. The very best case scenario would be a huge arms race occuring in the middle east, the likes we've never seen. Other less pleasant scenarios would be nuclear blackmail, nuclear attacks by states(or terrorists acting on behalf of states), etc.. There is no positive spin on any other countries in the middle east getting nukes, unless you feel the destruction of Israel would be a positive thing.

reply to post by Harlequin


In practical terms, would you please explain to the rest of us, how being wiped away from history, is more pleasant than being wiped off a map?
Also, is that the only way the Farsi statement could be interpreted, or just one way?

Israel uses its not so secret nuclear arsenal to keep its superiorly numericaly enemy neighbors in check.Even when they were almost overun by their enemies in 1973 they didnt launch them.Would i belive that the iranians would show the same restraint?No.If anything they would use them them to threaten the region and europe/usa.

The only thing I have to say about that it Israel won't use Nuke's unless it's used against them. They haven't used them yet. Iran on the other hand is a proven country that harbors terrorists that WILL use them or give Nukes to someone who will. That is my opinion. I think no other middle eastern country should have Nukes. Hell, no one should have Nukes.

If we knew for sure Iran wouldn't abuse nuclear power, they should be entitled to use it for power (electricity), but I think we all know it wouldn't just be used for that. That's my opinion.

reply to post by magicmushroom


No, America protects Israel because they are a small nation surrounded by Arab ones that want to exterminate them. Israel had no choice but to build nukes to insure their survival against these nations. Israel has shown allot of restraint in not using nukes. Russia's prodding of Egypt and Syria to start a war with Israel to allow Russia to step in almost caused Armageddon. We saw Russia getting ready to get in the mix and we warned them that no Russian would ever make it to Israel.
Everyone that hates Israel is evil and will be dealt with in time. The Arab world needs to grow up and learn how to be prosperous. Stop blaming Israel for everything! They are a small country that has the whole Arab nation up in arms ( how pathetic )

The problem with the Middle East is this;

Israel is pressured from within by a minority, but a vocal extremist element.

Iran is pressured from within by a minority, but a vocal extremists element.

If the left ever won power in Israel and the liberals got elected in Iran, we would have peace within hours. The Israeli labor party has already called for peace with Syria;



JPost

The internal politics is very complicated to understand in the Middle East.

[edit on 1-12-2007 by infinite]

Originally posted by infinite
How would you feel if, during the time of your creation, majority of the Arab countries around you wanted you destroyed?

You'd race to get a nuclear weapon asap.

(Remember, after the creation of Israel, the Arab's united to invade.)

Remember...The state of Israel is a creation as of 1947. They shouldn't be there in the first place. They merely exist to cause strife in the middle east.

I don't disagree that Israel needed nuclear weapons, but let's be honest, they weren't promised PALESTINE either!


P.S. I love all the pro-Israel people who have no idea what's going on in the first place (not you infinite).

[edit on 12/1/2007 by biggie smalls]

Originally posted by Sky watcher
reply to post by magicmushroom

 

No, America protects Israel because they are a small nation surrounded by Arab ones that want to exterminate them. Israel had no choice but to build nukes to insure their survival against these nations. Israel has shown allot of restraint in not using nukes. Russia's prodding of Egypt and Syria to start a war with Israel to allow Russia to step in almost caused Armageddon. We saw Russia getting ready to get in the mix and we warned them that no Russian would ever make it to Israel.
Everyone that hates Israel is evil and will be dealt with in time. The Arab world needs to grow up and learn how to be prosperous. Stop blaming Israel for everything! They are a small country that has the whole Arab nation up in arms ( how pathetic )

What a bunch of crap! Utter BS and religious propaganda!

Inform yourself!

My country (America) is the only aggressor here in modern times and also the only one to use nuclear weapons in the past, (Hiroshima, Nagasaki sp?) and still to this day in form of DU in Desert Storm and the current debacle called the WOT.

Lets say the tripe you spewed was true, how much sense would nuclear weapons make anywaze? If Iran decided to 'wipe Israel off the map (which they won't and never said they would, it was a mistranslation = BS propaganda) Israel or what is left of it would launch a counter strike, both problems turned to glass! Nuclear Winter follows. Earth's climate may or may not even recover. If it did it, would take many generations to fix. So point to the logic in your fallacy please!