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Israeli military announces readiness to invade Gaza

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posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 01:35 PM
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reply to post by DeadFlagBlues
 




Well honestly RP, it is what it is.


I assure you the situation is not what it is.. it is highly complex for one, with countless dynamics. To sum it all into "one problem" you again ignore the true situation as to why there are so many problems between these two people.



What it boils down to on this topic is "what's real." Not hypothetically "could be." These two nations were just talking about peace, and unifying a people. Less than a week passes and now Israel is not only ready, but vocalizing their intentions? That doesn't make sense to me, and that kind of immediate posture right after a peace talk looks like blatant aggression, not unification. I know with the current state that Gaza is in under the control of the Hamas doesn't make Israel too secure, but those are the events that have transpired due to their lack of reason in the past.


It can be said another way as well.

Israel and Palestine just sat down and called each other friends in Annapolis. Then Palestine started throwing mortars and rockets into Israel without provocation right after a peace accord. Now Israel is going to retaliate.



The only truth of the matter in the entire situation is this: Peace talks don't work. They never do. They never will. Especially when a third party as clueless as America is trying to set the standards.

The main problem with Palestine that is holding back any possible dialogue is the fact that these little Islamic militants keep acting on their own accord and have no direct leadership within the government. So Palestine says Peace. Israelis say peace. Then some punk group fires a rocket anyways and the whole thing falls apart and Israel invades again.

Is that Palestine's fault? Absolutely not. Hell Israel is at fault for targeting infrastructure and means of travel for the Palestinians to ever establish a true connection of its peoples over its territories.



I've heard report after report of "zoning laws" that Israel enforces on a weekly basis that are creating more and more Palestinian refugees. They bring USA supplied Cat backhoes with a military escort and "rezone" portions of land. This land they're "rezoning" are the inhabited homes of Palestinians.


I would love to read the report. The only things I have seen close to these actions are 1. The demolishion of terrorist houses. You bomb Israel, Israel knocks down all of your families homes with bull dozers. Sounds cruel, I find it to be an aggressive plan and well deserved. 2. When Israel pulls out of an area they had to force their own people out of the land. The settlements left behind had well established farms, orchards, vineyards, sometimes million dollar houses. Israel burns and tears down everything, so that Israeli citizens do not have to see their hard work utilized by Palestinians squatters. Israel does not, or at least I have never heard of this, tear down part of a city to "re-zone" just for the sake of it.



Hamas is the only line of defense when it comes to Palestinian rights.


Hammas was elected in primarily for their humanitarian record. Sounds odd, an American classified terrorist group also being known as a humanitarian group eh? When they elected them in, primarily in smaller towns, some citizens rejoiced it was the first time in several years a mayor showed up for work! I don't think they realized the outcry from the West when doing it, or simply could give a rats arse about what we think. Hammas exploited what they where given and instead of focusing on the people like they used to, put more effort into its military wings, which it quite often has no control over. The result was civil war, when political leaders decided they wanted to be the next arafat.



Those people who don't want any part of that circle of violence try and leave, but are met with resistance from surrounding nations as you've said.


This is imo the saddest part about the situation. So many do want out, and many actually want Israeli citizenship, since they are a conquered people the UN requires Israel to give them fair rights. As said before, Israel will never accept a Islamic majority, and very few Palestinians ever get Israeli citizenship. Some do however. And some even enlist as full time soldiers. However the situation is not the average guys fault. Is it ever? When Palestinians move into another nations territory, like say Jordan the political and military leaders simply cause hell for the host nation. Maybe its because where ever they are they are treated as second class humans, even in fellow Islamic countries.



They crawl back into the refugee camps


They are called Refugee camps. I am not sure why exactly..

If you saw the pictures of the camp that was surrounded by Lebanese forces (surprise, Muslim nation attacking Palestinians
) these camps are actually cities.

Very dirty, broken down cities. Most of the inhabitants where born in these cities. They are more like city states within a state.



I am in hope that Israel will see it has engaged in another unpopular war, and one of which cannot be brought to a conclusion.


Israel has a long history of not careing what the West thinks, even spiting the Americans. I honestly don't think it even phases them as far as morally when they attack Palestine. Where Palestine has built up hostility for suppression, Israel remembers home raids in the Israeli hinterlands, and the bus bombings. Long deep seeded anger on both sides.



This situation is undeniably human and easy to dissect from an outside perspective, but none of us are in their shoes. Not a single person on these boards could possibly know what it feels like to be faced with the kind of dire situations Palestinians and Israelis face every single day. We should all definitely feel blessed that we're not.


Couple years ago now I watched a special report on like 20/20 or something. It was about these kids from Israel and Palestine going to sumer camp together. The objective was to make the next generation more friendly and human, so thousands of kids have gone to these camps. At first no one is friends with the other side. Then they start talking. There are a lot of co-op missions the kids do to build trust.

By the end they where all friends, and when sat down in front of a camera at the end of camp a girl and a boy they simply said "Ya, we are great friends, but when I get older I will still join the Israeli army, and not think twice about shooting a Palestinian" and the Palestinian replied he would expect nothing less and he would probably join a militia to fight for his people.

I don't think we in the West in our comfy arm chairs and high tech computers could ever honestly understand what its like to live with real problems. Their nationalism is strong on both sides, probably the two most stubborn peoples in the world.

You have to admire the Palestinians in this respect though .. relentlessly they stand up to a giant regardless of the outcome, and the outcome is usually bleak.




posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 01:09 AM
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reply to post by Rockpuck
 


Very well laid out, RockPuck.

From what it looks like we tend to agree on the issue almost in it's entirety. Most of our conflict lie in semantics, I may have an opposing tilt, but think the issues regarding the situation are seen pretty clearly by both of us.

Isreal confiscating land from Palestinians.



The reason given was the lack of a difficult-to-obtain Israeli building permit.


It breaks my heart to see humanity in this constant push and pull with trivial pursuits. More land, more power, more money. My only hopes would be that mankind could put aside their differences and get along with one another with minimal conflict. The Conflict within the two peoples do not lie on the common man, but of a small group of men from both sides. As much as it is complex it very much is what it is. They've developed that complexity and the delicacy of all issues concerning both sides for the past 60 years. America is no moderator, because it is supplying the bombs that are falling on these people. How can one who partakes in anyway expect to moderate peace between two nations? That is engineered to be hypocritical to elongate the conflict for personal means.

True peace if taken into it's most concise definition is everything these men are working against. Unintentionally or not. Peace can never be achieved through acts of aggravation and provocation, or these fictitious photo ops and hand shakes. True peace can only come with the laying down of guns and all the negative intentions behind them from both parties simultaneously. We cannot hold the Palestinians responsible for not seeking peaceful means, because Israel has proven it's intentions to be counteractive of that, even if they Hamas or the people of Palestine would revert to peace.

This is also a case of "big brother, little brother." As Israel being an established state with an array of social programs for their own people, that could be extended out to those men, women, and children of Palestine who want nothing more than to just get on with their lives and live in peace. A display such as that would be the first stage of a potential snowball effect. Instead, they fight fire with fire, in return only receiving more fire.

Their forced intrusion of the Palestinian's livelihood from the state's inception has done nothing for either side except elevate the level of violence. The dog bites the hand of which is hitting it, in turn only to be run over by an Abraham tank. The level of "maturity" from Israel is egregious. Their actions are usually instigative, and the retaliation of the events that transpire are met with a certain amount of overkill. True peace, if they wanted it has nothing to do with eye for an eye, and in my personal opinion, they could careless about the people of whom they've evicted much land and killed many of their people.

I had also caught a video podcast about some of the refugee "camps," and can completely understand how that permeates the kind of civil unrest that is so common with the Palestinian people. Those camps are breeding grounds for further violence and destruction involving in most cases, the taking of innocent lives. Though, it's not Israel's direct responsibility, I believe if their true motive was peace, those "camps" wouldn't exist and the people of Palestine wouldn't be treated as a sub-class citizen. These men and women are not cattle and deserve the freedoms that we all should share, but that will never change if Israel keeps being so "Preemptive" or what they call "Retaliatory." One of the two have to set forth a concrete example of what "peace" truly is, and the 40 foot wall is not the concrete I'm talking about.


[edit on 8-12-2007 by DeadFlagBlues]



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