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Jet Fuel Made the WTC Fires Cooler

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posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by ULTIMA1

So your saying the firemen just walked by the big jet fuel fires we were told were there?


well if they were ascending up the stairwells, the doors to each floor would have been closed. and unless im mistaken, dont firedoors in most commercial buildings NOT have windows in them? so for them to spot any other fires they'd have had to stop on each floor and physically open each door. well they KNEW that there were fires above, and people likely trapped so why WOULD they stop and open each firedoor all the way up?

could just be me i guess




posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 11:08 PM
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Not to butt into this disussion, but I thought the 2 firemen that we're discussing actually took the only available elevator? I could be wrong though.

Might explain why they missed the fires on the lower floors though. Just sayin.



posted on Dec, 6 2007 @ 11:28 PM
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lol even more so than my firedoors theory...

but i dont know if htey took the stairs or elevator personally



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by Damocles
well if they were ascending up the stairwells, the doors to each floor would have been closed. and unless im mistaken, dont firedoors in most commercial buildings NOT have windows in them?


What about the other 341 firemen in the builidngs, i guess they did not see the big jet fuel fires that we were told about either?


six

posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by six
 


Ultima.....Read the link above. It explains to YOU...again....In great detail on how the firefighters were thinking. What they were doing. I dont know How they were doing it. I dont know any simpler way of explaining it to you.


six

posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 04:24 PM
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reply to post by Griff
 


Your right...I dont think that would be why those sheets are suppressed. If so that would be a stupid reason.

As for asbestos...you are correct again..It is real fire proof. But being fire proof would not be the issue as I see it. Its job is to protect the steel members. In doing so the heat it reflects, for the lack of a better term, is radiated back into the atmoshpere immediatley around it, making the area aroung the fire hotter. Now this would depend on just how much was left after the intial collision and explosion of course. I hope this makes sence. I am not thinking or feeling well today....lol



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by six
Ultima.....Read the link above. It explains to YOU...again....In great detail on how the firefighters were thinking.


I am asking a very simple question. How did all the firemen in the buildings miss the big jet fuel fires we were told were in the buildings along with the large inferno?

Unless there were no jet fuel fires on the lower floors or no large inferno like we were told.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 06:45 AM
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The heat from the jet fuel would not be hot enough to melt the steel gurders as it has been told on news sites.True,it didn't help matters any but,the heat from jet fuel did not cause the collapse like we have been told.Watching many videos of this and videos of firefighter brothers in NY that were there,there were explosions inside way before the towers ever collapsed.You can go to firehouse.com and click on the 9/11 section and see the video of the firefighters telling this.I have worked with C4 and dynomite and can tell you that the WTC buildings were man-demolished not fuel demolished.Where are ALL the flight recorders?They are supposed to be fire proof I thought.hhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmm.The FBI also confiscated a tape from the gas station across from the Pentagon and the American public has not seen it to know what really happened there either.The view from the Pentagon cam is not clear enough to really tell what hit but, you can tell it is not a 757 or 747.It is not big enough.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by totallyhuman
The heat from the jet fuel would not be hot enough to melt the steel gurders as it has been told on news sites.


Which raises the question, where did the molten steel come from in the debris field and what kept it molten for 6 weeks?



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by totallyhuman
The heat from the jet fuel would not be hot enough to melt the steel gurders as it has been told on news sites.


Which raises the question, where did the molten steel come from in the debris field and what kept it molten for 6 weeks?


A smoldering fire can get quite hot over time, 1000C is commonly accepted. Poor ventilation actually leads to higher temps. Ask Six why house fires are commonly "ventilated" by chopping throught he roof. I believe there will be 2 answers - 1, to clear the smoke; 2- to remove the hot gasses present near the ceiling, preventing a flashover.

www.mace.manchester.ac.uk...

Another source of heat is that iron rusting is an exothermic reaction. Ship loads of iron have been known to set off fires as they slowly rust.

www.highlightskids.com...

Another source of heat would be that aluminum can auto ignite, without any spark present, at 1400F. And when air is present,it forms aluminum oxide, which can reach temps of 5000F.

www.dmanuta.com...

Sulfur present from drywall would have furhter accelerated this rusting. FYI - rusting=oxidation. Oxidation=burning. Burning releases heat.

Another accelerant would be the water sprayed on the fires. The water, when it cools the iron, produced steam, which when it passes over hot steel, will break the bonds between the H and O atoms, releasing heat and making H gas and O's to further accelerate the oxidation. This actually a common way to produce hydrogen, in the hope of making hydrogen fueled cars.

www.alchemix.us...



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by Haroki
Another source of heat is that iron rusting is an exothermic reaction. Ship loads of iron have been known to set off fires as they slowly rust.

Another source of heat would be that aluminum can auto ignite, without any spark present, at 1400F. And when air is present,it forms aluminum oxide, which can reach temps of 5000F.



So you would agree then that the fires alone did not casue the collapse?



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Haroki
Another source of heat is that iron rusting is an exothermic reaction. Ship loads of iron have been known to set off fires as they slowly rust.

Another source of heat would be that aluminum can auto ignite, without any spark present, at 1400F. And when air is present,it forms aluminum oxide, which can reach temps of 5000F.



So you would agree then that the fires alone did not casue the collapse?


My response to you was about how the fires could remain so hot for so long underground. I answered that Q.

But yes, fires alone did not cause the collapse. The damage - caused by the planes - AND the fires collpased the building. Just like many others have explained to you.

So don't bother trying to drag me into your endless arguments. I've seen you do this to other posters, and you just don't listen to what they're saying.


Move on.....



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 01:09 PM
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Originally posted by Haroki
But yes, fires alone did not cause the collapse. The damage - caused by the planes - AND the fires collpased the building.


But as i have proven time and again from reports and evidence the buildings withstood the planes impacts.

So something else had to happen to weaken the building.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 01:49 PM
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Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Haroki
But yes, fires alone did not cause the collapse. The damage - caused by the planes - AND the fires collpased the building.


But as i have proven time and again from reports and evidence the buildings withstood the planes impacts.

So something else had to happen to weaken the building.


This is the only response that I'll have to your ridiculous attempts at obfuscation.......

Say a guy gets shot (plane impact/damage) and stabbed (fires that weakened the steel) and dies from blood loss (collapse pf the building). Neither one of the injuries would have resulted in enough blood loss for him to die on their own, but he dies anyway. So what caused his death?

When you figure that out, you'll have your answer. Good luck.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by Haroki

When you figure that out, you'll have your answer. Good luck.


And when you figure out what caused the molten steel in the debris and kept it molten for 6 weeks then you will know what helped cause the collaspe.

Please try to do some research if you want to know the truth.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Haroki

When you figure that out, you'll have your answer. Good luck.


And when you figure out what caused the molten steel in the debris and kept it molten for 6 weeks then you will know what helped cause the collaspe.

Please try to do some research if you want to know the truth.



I guess you missed this post. Looks like research to me. Or did you not notice the links to outside sources?

A smoldering fire can get quite hot over time, 1000C is commonly accepted. Poor ventilation actually leads to higher temps. Ask Six why house fires are commonly "ventilated" by chopping throught he roof. I believe there will be 2 answers - 1, to clear the smoke; 2- to remove the hot gasses present near the ceiling, preventing a flashover.

www.mace.manchester.ac.uk...

Another source of heat is that iron rusting is an exothermic reaction. Ship loads of iron have been known to set off fires as they slowly rust.

www.highlightskids.com...

Another source of heat would be that aluminum can auto ignite, without any spark present, at 1400F. And when air is present,it forms aluminum oxide, which can reach temps of 5000F.

www.dmanuta.com...

Sulfur present from drywall would have furhter accelerated this rusting. FYI - rusting=oxidation. Oxidation=burning. Burning releases heat.

Another accelerant would be the water sprayed on the fires. The water, when it cools the iron, produced steam, which when it passes over hot steel, will break the bonds between the H and O atoms, releasing heat and making H gas and O's to further accelerate the oxidation. This actually a common way to produce hydrogen, in the hope of making hydrogen fueled cars.

www.alchemix.us...



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by ULTIMA1

And when you figure out what caused the molten steel in the debris and kept it molten for 6 weeks then you will know what helped cause the collaspe.



Interesting line of thought.. when you figure out what caused the molten steel in the debris and kept it molten for 6 weeks then you will know what helped cause the collaspe. Why is this so important to you? You have specifically stated this helps in determining why this building collapsed. Why not tell everyone why you think this particular aspect is so important? Not too much to ask is it?



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 04:45 PM
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Originally posted by Haroki
Another source of heat is that iron rusting is an exothermic reaction. Ship loads of iron have been known to set off fires as they slowly rust.

Another source of heat would be that aluminum can auto ignite, without any spark present, at 1400F. And when air is present,it forms aluminum oxide, which can reach temps of 5000F.

Sulfur present from drywall would have furhter accelerated this rusting. FYI - rusting=oxidation. Oxidation=burning. Burning releases heat.

Another accelerant would be the water sprayed on the fires. The water, when it cools the iron, produced steam, which when it passes over hot steel, will break the bonds between the H and O atoms, releasing heat and making H gas and O's to further accelerate the oxidation. This actually a common way to produce hydrogen, in the hope of making hydrogen fueled cars.

www.alchemix.us...


So i will repeat my post again. You do agree that something else had to casue the heat the melted the steel and kept it molten for 6 weeks?



Originally posted by Freelancer
Interesting line of thought.. Why is this so important to you? You have specifically stated this helps in determining why this building collapsed. Why not tell everyone why you think this particular aspect is so important? Not too much to ask is it?


Well because we know the fires in the buildings were not hot enough to melt steel and they were burning out before the buildings collapsed.

So that means that something else had to cause the temps to melt the steel and keep it molten for 6 weeks.



[edit on 8-12-2007 by ULTIMA1]



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Haroki
Another source of heat is that iron rusting is an exothermic reaction. Ship loads of iron have been known to set off fires as they slowly rust.

Another source of heat would be that aluminum can auto ignite, without any spark present, at 1400F. And when air is present,it forms aluminum oxide, which can reach temps of 5000F.

Sulfur present from drywall would have furhter accelerated this rusting. FYI - rusting=oxidation. Oxidation=burning. Burning releases heat.

Another accelerant would be the water sprayed on the fires. The water, when it cools the iron, produced steam, which when it passes over hot steel, will break the bonds between the H and O atoms, releasing heat and making H gas and O's to further accelerate the oxidation. This actually a common way to produce hydrogen, in the hope of making hydrogen fueled cars.

www.alchemix.us...


So i will repeat my post again. You do agree that something else had to casue the heat the melted the steel and kept it molten for 6 weeks?



Originally posted by Freelancer
Interesting line of thought.. Why is this so important to you? You have specifically stated this helps in determining why this building collapsed. Why not tell everyone why you think this particular aspect is so important? Not too much to ask is it?


Well because we know the fires in the buildings were not hot enough to melt steel and they were burning out before the buildings collapsed.

So that means that something else had to cause the temps to melt the steel and keep it molten for 6 weeks.



[edit on 8-12-2007 by ULTIMA1]


Nothing but what was found in that pile is sufficient to turn metal molten.

Remember, aluminum oxide can burn at 5000F. I suggest you read the links given, and do some research on the matter.

That would heat any steel to red hot/melting. Then the other chemical processes as I outlined would keep it that way.



posted on Dec, 8 2007 @ 07:14 PM
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Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Well because we know the fires in the buildings were not hot enough to melt steel and they were burning out before the buildings collapsed.

So that means that something else had to cause the temps to melt the steel and keep it molten for 6 weeks.

[edit on 8-12-2007 by ULTIMA1]


Agreed. But unless any of the posters to this thread was able to obtain a sample of this molten liquid for further analysis or, show verifiable evidence from an outside source to the chemical make-up of this liquid any views or opinions expressed would be speculative at best.

One plusable theory I found from the The Journal of the Minerals, Metals and Materials Society on samples of metal found at the site of the collapsed buildings states:


Rapid deterioration of the steel was a result of heating with oxidation in combination with inter granular melting due to the presence of sulfur. The formation of the eutectic mixture of iron oxide and iron sulfide lowers the temperature at which liquid can form in this steel."


OK, this explains what happened to the steel fragments tested .. It goes on to say,


Physicist Steven Jones introduces the thermite hypothesis ignored by official investigations, that can explain the unusual evidence seen above:

"There is a straightforward way to achieve 1000°C temperatures (and well above) in the presence of sulfur, and that is to use thermate (or a similar variation of thermite). Thermate is a high-level thermite analog containing sulfur developed by the military.

Thermate combines aluminum/iron oxide (thermite) with barium nitrate (29%) and sulfur (typically 2% although more sulfur could be added). The thermate reaction proceeds rapidly and is much faster than thermite in degrading steel leading to structural failure. Thus, both the unusually high temperatures and the extraordinary observation of steel-sulfidation can be accounted for -- if the use of thermate is allowed in the discussion."


www.explosive911analysis.com...


If thermite/thermate was used, can it really achieve the necessary heat to produce molten steel found six weeks after the buildings collapsed?

From TechMatch, Patent #6766744 it states:-


Thermite, one of the most common pyrotechnic incendiary agents, is essentially a mixture of powdered ferric oxide and powdered or granular aluminum. When raised to its ignition temperature, an intense reaction occurs whereby the oxygen in the ferric oxide is transferred to the aluminum, producing molten iron, aluminum oxide, and releasing approximately 750 kilocalories per gram. The reaction proceeds as follows:

8Al+3Fe.sub.3 O.sub.4.fwdarw.4Al.sub.2 O.sub.3 +9Fe

This exothermic reaction may produce a temperature of about 4500.degree. F. under favorable conditions. The white-hot molten iron and slag can itself prolong and extend the heating and incendiary action.


Source


Was Thermite really used to melt away the steel supports?


Google Video Link


Video Source

Possibly, but until the full definitive truth is told, I will keep an open mind.



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