The end of 'Terrorist Couldn't Fly Planes That Well' threads

I have read somewhere that the VOR tuning panel on UA93 (at least one of them, there are two of course) was selected to the DCA VOR. The tuning panels are located on the center pedestal. Also near that is the control to switch the EFIS screen between MAP, ROUTE, FULL HSI and EXPANDED HSI. Any instrument rated pilot would be able to interpret the EFIS when place in HSI mode. Heck, the MAP mode is better, once you're familiar with it....

reply to post by johnlear


Hi again John

Many thanks for the your detailed opinion. I am not sure about what the truth is about how the operation was carried out but there are WAY to many inconsistancies to believe it was carried out by "Arab Terrorists".

Only by putting 2 and 2 together can we start trying to unravel what is going on - Just so many questions unanswered.

Okay obviously it was a staged event BUT who can control the Global Media to re-enforce this facade ?

Powerful Individuals indeed - It just seems sooo unbelievable - BUT when one starts to think of the way the media has been manipulating this topic - Why not ?

Edited because it was a derail post.



[edit on 3-12-2007 by Boone 870]

This is "Terrorist (sic) Couldn't Fly Planes That Well" thread

The challenge earlier offered is to come to Las Vegas and fly a simulator rented...a B767 simulator...and I asked earlier WHO has a B767 sim in LAS? OK, maybe we would have to meet in Los Angeles, since I assume UA has sims there...or maybe they are all in Denver, or Chicago?

Which B767 Sim is going to be used? Will it have daylight imaging on the screen displays? Who is going to be the operator of the Sim? I mean, Capt Lear, you know as well as I, one does not 'rent' a Sim without someone who is employed by the company that owns the Sim being there...it's part of the price...

reply to post by weedwhacker


lol whacker.. as he said a coiuple times he will try and
re-create every aspect of the flight..
including, but not limited to daylight hours. LOL

Im actually looking forward to see his results (if he does follow through).

So john, good luck and put $100 on red for me :-D

Originally posted by weedwhacker

The challenge earlier offered is to come to Las Vegas and fly a simulator rented...a B767 simulator...and I asked earlier WHO has a B767 sim in LAS?

SimPro

OK, maybe we would have to meet in Los Angeles, since I assume UA has sims there...or maybe they are all in Denver, or Chicago?

We don't need UA for anything.

Which B767 Sim is going to be used? Will it have daylight imaging on the screen displays?

I can see that you don't know very much about simulators.

Who is going to be the operator of the Sim?

Whoever we choose.

I mean, Capt Lear, you know as well as I, one does not 'rent' a Sim without someone who is employed by the company that owns the Sim being there...it's part of the price...

I am respectfully afraid that you don't know what you talking about.

But your input is appreciated nevertheless.

Hello Captain Lear,

Happy Birthday, by the way...

I am really offended by a comment you made where you said I 'didn't know what I'm talking about'!!!

OK...I'll let that one slide...you've been offended before and have anwered graciously...so I will try to do the same...

I am not familiar with 'SimPro'. Is this a company (I will look it up on Google after I finish writing this) that operates Full Motion sims in the Las Vegas area?

OK....we do not have to have the motion on for your challenge. All I am asking is...Is the simulator going to be up to the standards of what an airline pilot/type rating candidate will 'fly' in order to accomplish his/her recurrent or initial training requirements?

IF you rent a real simulator...as I've mentioned above...and I mean no disrespect, Sir...you know that there will be someone assigned by whomever OWNS the darned thing to operate it.

Here's an idea....In Dallas American Airlines has lots of sims....in Houston Continental Airlines has lots of sims...in Denver United Airlines has lots of sims...SO, let's fly from LAS to IAH, DFW or DEN and rent one of those sims....

Of course, the price for an hour in a sim will include the instructor who is qualified to operate the device...but we can get a discount if we just use it as a 'CPT', with the motion turned off....right?

Sorry....I had respect, until you said I didn't know what I was talking about.....

I think you owe me an apology.

--------------------------------------
please read ABOUT ATS: Warnings for excessive quoting, and how to quote

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 6/12/07 by masqua]

Which B767 Sim is going to be used? Will it have daylight imaging on the screen displays?

We had a KC-135 Simulator at Dyess AFB that everyone flew night-time only. The daylight graphics were cartoonish, but the B1 Bomber and C-130 sim had great daytime graphics. Did I ever tell you about our B-1B runs through the Grand Canyon? (Stop me if you've heard this before)

That was back in the 90s. The new stuff is so realistic, you feel like you're there. It's not cartoonish at all. It's even hard to tell where the images meet for the front and side views. I'd take a picture but it doesn't do the thing justice. When you add in the full motion it's very, very realistic. You won't notice any flaws at all.


EDIT: If you're really close to other objects, they are slightly simulated looking, but not so much that you focus on that aspect.


[edit on 6-12-2007 by dbates]

I just Googled 'SimPro'....not the results I expected, in the realm of B767 simulators, I mean...

Is there a better link (no pun, didn't mean the 'Link' simulator...).

Best, TJ

reply to post by dbates


dbates,

I flew older sims, not in the military of course, but I know what you mean about the night-time visuals.

The stuff now is so much better....and what trickles down to we civilians is what I mean...as I said, the current sims are...and I forget the term...but suffice to say, you WILL train in one and be type rated without EVER touching the real airplane. Of course, per Ops Specs, whether Part 135 or Part 121 there will be some sort of IOE involved. OH, and Part 121 INITIAL Captain upgrade....notice my emphasis on 'initial' ... requires a designated FAA inspector to ride on the jumpseat as observer....he could be the Operator's 'POI', or his 'designee'...

(Sidebar for Capt Lear....I do know what I'm talking about...I don't insult you, I may not agree with everything you say, but I never insult you!).

[edit for spelling]

[edit on 6-12-2007 by weedwhacker]

OK...I used the term 'daylight imaging' when I was asking Capt Lear about which simulators would be used for his challenge.

I fly the things, I don't operate them. (At least, I used to fly the things...).

What is it called now? 'Phase III'...is that what the FAA uses to designate a simulator that will qualify a person for a type rating in the airplane, at least as far as the FAA is concerned.

SO, Capt Lear...I am not insulted anymore after what you said, actually after what you cut and pasted from my post, and then you commented on...I forgive you, since it's your Birthday.

I used language that I thought everyone would understand, not just pilots. Sorry you had to take that one sentence 'out of context' and then try to tell everyone I didn't know what I was talking about.

[OK...deep breath....glad I got that off my chest...]

I'm still planning to look you up, in March...in LAS...

I know what to bring....

in regard to mr lears challenge with the simulator: wouldnt buying sim time and then crashing into buildings just be BEGGING for the FBI to come and visit you at home or work?

just curious, i think its a great idea and a great way to settle some of the debates but for a community that seems to have an inherent distrust of "the man" it seems a little, i dunno...

yeah ya'll know what i mean

reply to post by Damocles


Hello, Damocles,

NO, I do not think the FBI or Homeland Security would be worried about a privately-funded experiment that is clearly not about training potential ... hate to use the phrase ... let's just say, 'pirates' instead.

I was inquiring about the 'challenge'...and, quite honestly, I think it would be a waste of money, because it is very expensive to rent a simulator, assuming we use a full-motion sim...and it would have to be state-of-the-art airline quality B767...(the B757 sim would suffice, same type rating)...but it would have to have 'daylight' visuals, and be '
landing certified' (even though they didn't land, those are the best sims).

We could do 'CFIT' in the syllabus, that's 'Controlled Flight Into Terrain', avoidance both in Daylight mode (there's a mountain in front of you, Captain!!) and in Night mode, using the EGPWS, that's Enhanced GPWS...GPWS that is, well, 'enhanced' by GPS to include terrain information. In any case, training was, when you hear a GPWS or a EGPWS warning, you act accordingly. In CFIT training, it was a soft 'terrain, terrain' followed by a stronger 'TERRAIN TERRAIN' or in between, depending on urgency, a 'Whoop! Whoop! Pull Up! Pull Up!'

Point is...a simulator will have all of the appropriate warnings going off, whether they be triggered by the GPWS (which looks at Radar Altitude, Rate of Descent, and Gear/Flap configuration), or excessive airspeed, which will cause the 'clacker' to sound...actually in the B767 it is an electronic hi/lo siren...or these warning sounds will be disabled by the simulator operator...but if so, it will invalidate the test, IMHO.

Damocles, under the circumstances, and knowing that the simulator is not being used to 'train' potential...er...'pirates'...I feel certain that one could pay someone to rent one of these simulators in order to prove a point...

It is going to be expensive, that's the rub. Perhaps we could all pitch in?

Of course, since the motion would not have to be turned on, there COULD be a discount...it's not good for the machine when it 'crashes'...when the motion is on...depends on how well it can 'reset' afterwards. Depends on how sophisticated it is...

reply to post by weedwhacker


Hi, i would recommend you to hire B757/767 at Continental-Houston.
They have got Leve D sims (full motion) that is the most realistic 76 sim i've ever been in.

Just explain from the start why you want to rent it, and the feds wont care.

Last time we were there a bunch of flightsimmers did some flying in the sim with rated 767 pilots as FO's.

Since when do we have to clear what we rent with good intentions with the Government? Let the FBI waste their time and shoe leather if anyone calls in, which they won't. See how paranoid we have become? Always wondering what the Feds will think..Bah!!

If we allow ourselves to be conditioned into self policing robots afraid to move without worrying about worst case scenarios, we deserve it. The FBI wants NO part of anything that will disprove the official story: What do you think they are, an investigative agency sworn to protect the Constitution? No worries.

I haven't had time to go through every post, but has anyone considered that with the funding these "whacko's" had, couldn't they have made one of these?

www.youtube.com...

To most people (like me) it is way to expensive to build, but to a well funded terrorist organization, it's chump change.

I have flown on FS4 for a number of years at home. Two years ago, I was in Michigan for Christmas. My cousin had a private pilots license and asked me if I wanted to go on a flight with him and look at the Christmas lights from the air. I had never flown in a small plane so it was a big "Yes"! I told him about my experience with FS4, but I had never actually been in a small plane before.

We proceeded to the end of the runway and he looked at me and asked "do you wanna take off?" What are you kidding me? I'll try, but you will be able to take control right?" He said yes. I took off without a hitch, but he had control of the flaps and rudder. I flew the plane about 50 miles without a hitch. After we landed (cousin landed) he said that I flew like a veteran.

There is no doubt in my mind that with the right training, these guys could have pulled it off. There is only the 'Pentagon' crash that needs further scrutiny. IMO

I also believe that they were on the payroll of the federal government!

Guz

reply to post by Freaky_Animal


Thanks, Freaky Animal

Yes, the simulators are categorized by either 'Level' or 'Phase'...I tend to forget which...I just know that I was told I could 'fly' a certain sim, and then get my type rating BECAUSE it is so realistic, the FAA determined it to be satisfactory for their certification purposes. Of course, in the real world, you must fly the real airplane, as I pointed out before, and it is done on a 'live' airline flight. Of course, to be an instructor, you will fly the airplane WITHOUT passengers on board, just to get at least three landings...

My point is, at any PART 121 airline, there is a significant rule book to comply with...that is what the FAA does, that's their job.

I will look up the manufacturer's data on the sims to post later, if possible....

This is what I dug upn on certification on flight sims. Sounds like alot but for a person with nothing else to do...easy!

www.flightsimaviation.com...

Originally posted by weedwhacker
reply to post by Freaky_Animal

 

Thanks, Freaky Animal

Yes, the simulators are categorized by either 'Level' or 'Phase'...I tend to forget which...I just know that I was told I could 'fly' a certain sim, and then get my type rating BECAUSE it is so realistic, the FAA determined it to be satisfactory for their certification purposes. Of course, in the real world, you must fly the real airplane, as I pointed out before, and it is done on a 'live' airline flight. Of course, to be an instructor, you will fly the airplane WITHOUT passengers on board, just to get at least three landings...

My point is, at any PART 121 airline, there is a significant rule book to comply with...that is what the FAA does, that's their job.

I will look up the manufacturer's data on the sims to post later, if possible....

Originally posted by weedwhacker
[My point is, at any PART 121 airline, there is a significant rule book to comply with...that is what the FAA does, that's their job.

I will look up the manufacturer's data on the sims to post later, if possible....

Cmon bro! we are talking about terrorism not the right way of getting licensed. If I were a terrorist and had the cash flow cmon!