F-22A Raptors Reportedly Intercept RuAF "Bear H" Bombers

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posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 09:34 AM
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It has been reported that an (as of yet) undisclosed number of F-22A Raptors from the 90th FS Elmendorf AFB, Alaska were scrambled on Thanksgiving Day (22 November) to intercept Russian Air Force Tu-95MS bombers. The Russian bombers where detected and tracked by early warning radars as they headed for Alaskan (US) air space. The intercept reportedly only lasted for a few minutes, until the bomber changed course, however there was a picture taken, apparently. Unfortunately it has not yet been made available and there is no official comment (press release) from the USAF or DoD regarding the incident.

I am interested to know if any members with ties to the Elmendorf AFB community can comment on this particular incident.


Mr. Putin's Thanksgiving Gift



U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptors reportedly conducted their first-ever intercept of Russian Bear H bombers on Thanksgiving Day.

Military sources tell In From the Cold that the intercept occurred as the Russian aircraft approached Alaskan airspace, near the Aleutian Islands. F-22s from Elmendorf AFB were scrambled to intercept the Russian bombers, which were detected at long range by radar and intelligence systems. The Raptors flew alongside the TU-95s for a few minutes before the bombers turned and headed back toward Russian airspace. One of the photographs taken during the intercept reportedly shows the F-22's shadow falling across the fuselage of the Bear H.

Source (Scroll Down)


[edit on 27-11-2007 by WestPoint23]




posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:44 AM
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The Cold War already started late 2006 or early 2007. This time we have both China and Russia to worry about.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:52 AM
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reply to post by guppy
 


Did it ever really end? Just went on the back burner for a bit.

These Bear flights are just flexing muscle and monitoring response procedures / times, the UK has had a number where Tornados and Eurofighters up, shame we still don't have any BAC lightnings or F4 Phantoms in service ~ they would be much more appropriate to intercept a cold war relic like the Bear, that would put a smile on Russian air crews faces! Apparently it's always fairly amicable up there, quick wave and they change course.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 11:59 AM
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If one was to breach the airspace, what would be done? HOw long would we allow it? What are your thoughts Westpoint?



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by Now_Then

These Bear flights are just flexing muscle and monitoring response procedures / times


Actually I wouldn't even say this - the resumption of flights is more to do with an increased training regime in the Russian airforce than anything else.

Up until 2006, most Russian airforce pilots, especially those in bomber squadrons, were only getting a couple of dozen hours of stick time each year - drastically low numbers for a fairly modern airforce.

Putin has recently increased funding to the Russian military, which is why we are seeing more flights - pilots are increasing the number of hours they are flying each year.

The perception that Russia is once again stretching her muscles is, while very much a secondary effect, a welcome byproduct of these flights.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 12:21 PM
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Ever read the book "Plan of Attack" by Dale Brown?
Practice makes perfect. The Russians are up to something. When is the last time we sent B-2 bombers or B-52s to Russia?



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 12:53 PM
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Originally posted by deltaboy
Ever read the book "Plan of Attack" by Dale Brown?
Practice makes perfect. The Russians are up to something. When is the last time we sent B-2 bombers or B-52s to Russia?


The USAF patrols using B-52s, B-1s and B-2s quite regularly.

Its worth noting that at all times the Bears remain in international airspace.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 12:58 PM
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I bet we will try and use our B2's to test their early warning systems. My guess is they will never know we were there. We will just have to turn around and leave without an escort.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 03:27 PM
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reply to post by RichardPrice
 


When was the last time American bombers were sent so close to Russian airspace?



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by cloakndagger
I bet we will try and use our B2's to test their early warning systems. My guess is they will never know we were there. We will just have to turn around and leave without an escort.



I'll guess your wrong... your very wrong.


Both on technical and political aspects.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 04:47 PM
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reply to post by deltaboy
 


The US (NATO) never stopped global bomber (aircraft and or ships/submarines) flights (patrols) close to foreign national airspace (and or forces) when the Cold War "ended", and we continue to perform such missions. Because they are not as widely reported as the Russian flights (for several reasons) does not mean they aren't happening. Also, the US used to fly multiple bombers (B-1's I believe) simultaneously from the East and West of Russia at full speed and on direct heading, only to have them all turn around when they got close to Russian airspace.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by WestPoint23
 


Well as you said they used to fly B-1 bombers near Russian airspace. I know there are supposedly spy planes gathering intel, but not bombers sent in threatening manner. Be kind of nice to provide some pics of B-52s or B-1s being flanked by Flankers or MIGs in post Cold War.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 05:22 PM
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The RC-135s patrol the edges of foreign airspace. They monitor radar and radio signals from inside the country, and attempt to get them to activate their SAM radars to plot them, and figure out what type they are.



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 03:07 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Because they are not as widely reported as the Russian flights (for several reasons) does not mean they aren't happening. Also, the US used to fly multiple bombers (B-1's I believe) simultaneously from the East and West of Russia at full speed and on direct heading, only to have them all turn around when they got close to Russian airspace.


Are these bomber patrols limited to Russia( and China) and are there any interception + escort incidents with non recce aircraft?(B-52,B-1B etc..)



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 04:06 AM
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Very smart move from the russians - they now have got good intel on the working procedures of both the RAF Typhoon , and the USAF Raptor - expect more of the same over the coming months as they tune the onboard systems to the new threat.


Bear a cold war relic? is so then whats the B-52? Both whilst outwardly might look dated , are very sophisticated machines - and the Bear-H`s is cruise missile carrier = a role which it has done for years and years .


Hmmmm what are the bests that this could have been a Bear -D? ElinT version? to the modern generation a Bear looks like a Bear - if its a Bear -D then russia has a significant amount of electronic data now about the Raptor.



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 07:25 AM
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The bear has a very high cruise speed and a huge range. It is not any less or more obselete than the B52



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 09:12 AM
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reply to post by Harlequin
 


What exactly do you mean by "working procedures" of the Raptor? The fact that they will be scrambled to intercept foreign aircraft approaching US national airspace is not that shocking. Even if these bombers were packed with ELINT systems there is no reason to believe the Raptors ever used anything more than their data links and radio. There are enough ground and air radar systems in the North Arctic to track "Bears" without any significant problem. The Raptors can receive a detailed battle picture via AWACS of ground control and be vectored in that way without needing to go "active". Also, F-22's can enhance their radar signature (if they choose to) while in flight and they also have the passive ALR-94/AN-APG-77 combination. If the "Bears" were broadcasting anything the Raptors would also be able to pick it up and record.



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 09:31 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
What exactly do you mean by "working procedures" of the Raptor? The fact that they will be scrambled to intercept foreign aircraft approaching US national airspace is not that shocking.


No its not a shock.

But the speed at which they arrive may be of interest to the Russians.



Originally posted by WestPoint23
Even if these bombers were packed with ELINT systems there is no reason to believe the Raptors ever used anything more than their data links and radio.


Yeap, and the Bears can try to detect the datalinks and/or tap into them.



Originally posted by WestPoint23
There are enough ground and air radar systems in the North Arctic to track "Bears" without any significant problem. The Raptors can receive a detailed battle picture via AWACS of ground control and be vectored in that way without needing to go "active".


Again, the bears can try to find the communications signals and tap in.



Originally posted by WestPoint23
Also, F-22's can enhance their radar signature (if they choose to) while in flight and they also have the passive ALR-94/AN-APG-77 combination.


Thats 2 assumptions, radar signature and passive radar use. I disagree on the former and agree on the latter.



Originally posted by WestPoint23
If the "Bears" were broadcasting anything the Raptors would also be able to pick it up and record.


Yeap, but there is much more of interest to learn about the F-22 rather than a tired old Bear.



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by kilcoo316
But the speed at which they arrive may be of interest to the Russians.


The only thing of value they could ascertain is the time it took for Raptors to appear on scene after they entered NORAD radar coverage. But even this is a little suspect, in a real war we would not wait for a formation of Russian bombers to approach close to US airspace before we intercepted them.


Originally posted by kilcoo316
Yeap, and the Bears can try to detect the datalinks and/or tap into them.


Seeing as how all NATO aircraft use the same data link and have been doing so for quite some time now. Even in the vicinity and or against other Russian systems during actual combat there is little to gain by monitoring the Raptors (receive only) capability. And tapping in such comm. links isn't exactly a walk in the park. If this is all it took for data links to be jammed or cracked it would have happened a long time ago.


Originally posted by kilcoo316
Thats 2 assumptions, radar signature...


That's not an assumption, the F-22's can make their presence known in several ways. By deploying and activating a "squawker", flying with "radar reflectors" or using external hard points (see fuel tanks). I have it on good authority that two of those things were done, the other I'm not sure about. However what is clear is that this game has been going on for decades and the procedures are clear. I'm sure the USAF had a plan for this before the Raptors even moved up to Elmendorf.

[edit on 28-11-2007 by WestPoint23]



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 11:02 AM
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As you say, this game has been going on for decades.

The purpose of the threatening aircraft is to get the defenses lit up so that they can analyze everything they can observe - a successful mission can affect the design of countermeasures equipment for years as well as pinpoint defensive fixed installations for tactical purposes.

The defensive response is to intercept the intruder using an absolute minimum of the intercepting force's assets (especially electronic assets) to show the intruder that the defensive network can easily intercept them, and also to deny the intruder the chance to analyze as much of the defensive system as possible.

In another age and another time there was also the option of just watching the intruder fly overhead without activating anything - before WWII the Germans flew a zeppelin close to British airspace to check out those funny looking towers along the coast - at least they thought they were close to British airspace - in fact they were miles inside it over land! The British just watched them on radar, didn't attempt to intercept, and the Germans went away none the wiser - purely because they were looking in the wrong wavelength.

There is also another consideration. The possession of a weapon does nothing for deterrence unless your opponent knows you have it. So there is a case for showing your opponent at least some of your capabilities.

Take the situation of the shoot-down of KAL-007 over the Kamchatka peninsula some years ago. The Russian response (in part) was that they fired warning shots across the nose of the intruding aircraft, and gaining no response, eventually shot it down with missiles. America responded that Russian aircraft didn't have guns (this was at the time when the Phantom's only gun was carried as a pod - before the F-4E - and most interceptors carried only missile armament) - which was all rather silly, I thought, because if American aircraft carried gun pods, then I could see no reason why Russian aircraft would not be capable of doing the same (sorry, I forgot Russians would be too stupid to figure that out!). Within a week or so an Su-15 'got intercepted' and photographed in international airspace around Scandinavia - and guess what - it was carrying a pair of gun pods! Those Russians are just so sloppy with their navigation!

So for a peacetime (yes, Americans you are not actually at war with Russia or China just yet) intercept in international airspace would require SSR radar equipment, etc to be lit up for civil air traffic control purposes and I would suspect that the F-22s would use only passive means to intercept, thus denying the intruder any chance of capturing any electronic information. Of course, for the whole game to function, the intruder has to approach all lit up as well, otherwise it may be too successful and not even get a response - unless, of course they are testing that particular function!

The very simplest result for the Russians, may be gained by monitoring civil and or military ATC frequencies to discover the point at which the interceptors launch and then interpolate the time and therefore range, at which they were detected. All useful stuff.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 28/11/07 by The Winged Wombat]





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