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faith + 1 [question for bible beleivers]

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posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 03:46 PM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 


I'm talking on a grander scale than just this thread, and I can't show you any concrete evidence you've dismissed because you don't believe it to be concrete. At the same time, the concrete you do accept always seems to support one side, while the other side's "concrete" is always fluff in your interpretation.

In my understanding, this would have to mean one of two things. One, that everyone in the world who believes in God is a delusional idiot who can't see the writing on the wall, or you've taken sides and are biased against certain evidence and refuse to give it the thought it merits.




posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 06:43 PM
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Good lord look at that big long line of crap he responded me too. I can't even begin to explain this. JJ put the words out already. Madness, you refuse to accept other people. I welcome all faiths and all people into this world, you shoot at anyone who thinks differently. Congrats, you just won the biggest hypocrite in the world award twice. I know I still have that picture around here somewhere... here.


I know I'm probably hypocrite too for posting the picture, bust screw it.

There is just simply no time for me to respond to the long list, so I will do my best on the short time I have.

I cannot show you personal events of my own, as the proof is in memory. But if your willing to say millions are wrong, fine. Shows how smart you are. According to you, witnesses are not scientific proof. So then every crime with a witness must be false then right?

Quetzalcoatl ? yea, so what. It's was a great serpent. Do you ave a time machine to see if there was an ancient lizard that went extinct? No, so don't go bash people's beliefs. If millions say they saw something, it has to be true. A few thousand, maybe. Hundreds, maybe. Dozens, depends. I know you can turn this against me on Jesus and his apostles, but Jesus wasn't a great serpent.

I'm sorry for sounding dumb also on this, but there is an explainable thing for the voices in my house and things getting moved around. someones did move them, from the other side.

In fact, I have a GREAT example for you that I just remembered. About oh, maybe 3 months ago, I lost my Golden chain. It was an heirloom from my father. A gift from his father, and some 70-80 years old. It broke, and I had no idea where it was. One of the places I checked was my room, on my bedpost. All that was there was my laptop. Nothing more. So I continued looking, and eventually prayed desperate for it. I went up to bed sad, and there it was, neatly placed on my laptop. It wasn't there the first time, and someone had moved it. No one was there, and the house had been empty the whole day (yea, my house is empty alot of the time) But somhow it was placed there. Not to mention, I know I had lost it outside somewhere, because I had lost it on a trip. While going back, I noticed it was gone. And yes, I saw it on me when I left.

So explain madness. Did I hallucinate that it moved from God knows where outside into my bedroom? I'm sure if the shoe fits, you'll where it, and say I was hallucinating or something. Alot of people must hallucinate these days.


Oh, and what does it take for a church to be a heresy. I don't know, maybe for the leader of the church to state such? Because the Indian church has been considered a heresy for over 1000 years now.

[edit on 13-12-2007 by Gorman91]



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 07:57 PM
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FACT: WHEN ARGUING ABOUT RELIGION, AT A CERTAIN POINT YOU WILL BE A HYPOCRITE, UNLESS YOU ARE AGNOSTIC. THAT IS THE VERY SAD, SORRY NATURE OF RELIGION ITSELF.

[edit on 12/13/2007 by Kacen]



posted on Dec, 13 2007 @ 09:20 PM
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What about when atheists say religion caused all the world's problems? It's the same either way.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 09:07 AM
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reply to post by madnessinmysoul
 




and that's why you fail
you refuse to accept reality in favor of your tiny worldview in which this insignificant speck of a planet is the pride and joy of an all-powerful being.


I see this insignificant speck of a planet and everyone on it being very important to God. I also see everything that God has created being very important to him, not insignificant like you claim. Even you madnessinmysoul are important to him…



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 09:20 AM
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If anything in the universe is worthless, then the universe itself is worthless. The construct is priceless and is the direct imaging of truth and law.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 09:43 AM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
What about when atheists say religion caused all the world's problems? It's the same either way.


I meant atheists too, I made an exception with a light agnostic.

To be honest, atheists have more of a scientific advantage over religious people, but still there are certain points where they can be considered hypocrites too.

Though seriously a religious argument that is theist versus theist usually gets retarded and hypocritical, so the blame of who's wrong goes on who started it in that case, it's usually to be quite honest the Christian or the Muslim, in my experience.

And when it's an atheist/theist argument, the atheists tend to start it a lot too.


Originally posted by depth om
If anything in the universe is worthless, then the universe itself is worthless. The construct is priceless and is the direct imaging of truth and law.


This doesn't defend Christianity, this merely defends uh...a higher power?

Really be more direct metaphors confuse people especially people with A.D.H.D. like me.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 09:55 AM
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What's metaphorical? Just stating that what surrounds us is the image of truth and logic. Our technology is always based off of pre-existing physic and form.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 10:14 AM
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Originally posted by depth om
What's metaphorical? Just stating that what surrounds us is the image of truth and logic. Our technology is always based off of pre-existing physic and form.


Wow, nitpicking on semantics, great. Thats when you know the argument went off track.

And I do agree, but this is not proving Christianity, it's proving...well not "proving" but defending within...that realm...ugh so hard to...whatever...well a higher power at minimum...

I guess your just taking steps.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 10:20 AM
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lol I'm not trying to defend anything, I was clarifying my previous "non-denominational" statement. I guess that wasn't neccesary, so, good day sir.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:24 PM
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reply to post by junglejake
 


i repeat: show me an example and reasoning behind why you think i'm wrong to dismiss the evidence.


Originally posted by junglejake
In my understanding, this would have to mean one of two things. One, that everyone in the world who believes in God is a delusional idiot who can't see the writing on the wall, or you've taken sides and are biased against certain evidence and refuse to give it the thought it merits.


or you could just be combining the two logical fallacies of false dichotomy with reducto ad absurdium...
because you and i know you could come up with a thousand and one different explanations if we just put our heads together for 5 minutes



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
Good lord look at that big long line of crap he responded me too.


hm. seems like you have no argument here save for saying that mine are crap.



I can't even begin to explain this. JJ put the words out already.


yes, JJ lowered himself to a level i didn't think he'd go to and used a host of logical fallacies and unsupported generalizations to say something that isn't true.



Madness, you refuse to accept other people. I welcome all faiths and all people into this world, you shoot at anyone who thinks differently.


really?
tell that to my closest friends: a catholic youth minister in training, a devout presbyterian, a hindu, a jew, a deist

oh, and my catholic girlfriend.



Congrats, you just won the biggest hypocrite in the world award twice. I know I still have that picture around here somewhere... here.


congratulations, you have no argument and have resorted to name calling using an absurd image, twice!

i'm surprised JJ hasn't moved in on the name calling here.




I know I'm probably hypocrite too for posting the picture, bust screw it.


immature and uncalled for.



There is just simply no time for me to respond to the long list, so I will do my best on the short time I have.


i'm replying to you at 1:15 AM local time, i'm responding to your long list here
make the time when you have it.



I cannot show you personal events of my own, as the proof is in memory. But if your willing to say millions are wrong, fine. Shows how smart you are. According to you, witnesses are not scientific proof. So then every crime with a witness must be false then right?


well... you're creating a false comparison. the millions of accounts we have in the world contradict each other (and reality). when this happens in a case, testimony tends to be thrown out.



Quetzalcoatl ? yea, so what. It's was a great serpent. Do you ave a time machine to see if there was an ancient lizard that went extinct? No, so don't go bash people's beliefs. If millions say they saw something, it has to be true. A few thousand, maybe. Hundreds, maybe. Dozens, depends. I know you can turn this against me on Jesus and his apostles, but Jesus wasn't a great serpent.


how about all of these and the millions of witnesses they have?



I'm sorry for sounding dumb also on this, but there is an explainable thing for the voices in my house and things getting moved around. someones did move them, from the other side.


things moving around i have nowhere near enough data to talk about, i'll admit that
however, the voices can be a lot of things. sometimes people just hear things
when they're specific noises that were frequently reoccurring in the past, there's a simple psychological explanation for it.

you should really look in to psychology, particularly evolutionary psychology, for many of the answers to your questions.



In fact, I have a GREAT example for you that I just remembered. About oh, maybe 3 months ago, I lost my Golden chain. It was an heirloom from my father. A gift from his father, and some 70-80 years old. It broke, and I had no idea where it was. One of the places I checked was my room, on my bedpost. All that was there was my laptop. Nothing more. So I continued looking, and eventually prayed desperate for it. I went up to bed sad, and there it was, neatly placed on my laptop. It wasn't there the first time, and someone had moved it. No one was there, and the house had been empty the whole day (yea, my house is empty alot of the time) But somhow it was placed there. Not to mention, I know I had lost it outside somewhere, because I had lost it on a trip. While going back, I noticed it was gone. And yes, I saw it on me when I left.


there are a dozen and a half explanations i could give that you'll just say "but i KNEW this or that" when i say you might not have.



So explain madness. Did I hallucinate that it moved from God knows where outside into my bedroom? I'm sure if the shoe fits, you'll where it, and say I was hallucinating or something. Alot of people must hallucinate these days.


nope, you just misplace things and act as if they've been moved, not hallucinate.




Oh, and what does it take for a church to be a heresy. I don't know, maybe for the leader of the church to state such? Because the Indian church has been considered a heresy for over 1000 years now.


um... which church?
the coptic church?
church of england?
eastern orthodox church?
roman catholic church?
lutheran church?
presbyterian?
etc etc etc.

the thing is... if you look at any denomination, there's always another one that claims it's a heresy.
"because the church says so" isn't a reason why it's heretical.


Originally posted by Gorman91
What about when atheists say religion caused all the world's problems? It's the same either way.


then they're being morons. nobody should claim that a single factor caused all of the world's problems.



posted on Dec, 14 2007 @ 06:43 PM
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Madness, I won't be bothered until you admit that massive witnesses can be counted as proof. Until then, just know that My chain wasn't there when I looked, then when I returned, it was there. It wasn't overseen, it was dropped outside. How can something go from outside a house to inside ?

And on heresies, I don't believe in that bull either. Hence why I'm a universalist. But according to your "group 'em all together" thinking, why shouldn't you be blamed for the evils of communism? You and that group are different, but you both share in atheistic Point of View. Neither side makes sense. To group all Christians in the same bunch, or you with Communists.

But hey, if subjective learning, denial of witnesses, and generalization are what float your boat. be my guest. There's alot of openings with that qualification in the US gov. (note, if you say that I'm the same, remember, you are saying I should read this or look at that. Thus yet, I have not said read a bible or look at this art, so don't respond like that)

And on the list of Gods, so? I believe most religions are from the same origin.

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 14-12-2007 by Gorman91]



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 07:36 AM
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Originally posted by Gorman91
Madness, I won't be bothered until you admit that massive witnesses can be counted as proof.


and i won't be bothered until you show me how they can be counted as proof when there are massive amounts of witnesses that contradict them..



Until then, just know that My chain wasn't there when I looked, then when I returned, it was there. It wasn't overseen, it was dropped outside. How can something go from outside a house to inside ?


see, this is what i predicted. you THINK this is how things went, but they might not have and it could have been an oversight on your part.



And on heresies, I don't believe in that bull either. Hence why I'm a universalist. But according to your "group 'em all together" thinking, why shouldn't you be blamed for the evils of communism?


because communism isn't a form of atheism, it's a form of economics.



You and that group are different, but you both share in atheistic Point of View. Neither side makes sense. To group all Christians in the same bunch, or you with Communists.


...there are christian communists... hell, i know a communist priest.
you're saying that grouping me with people that support a particular belief on economics is the same as grouping christians together..



But hey, if subjective learning, denial of witnesses, and generalization are what float your boat. be my guest.


if logical fallacies, lack of evidence, and somehow ignoring the fact that all of the so called "witnesses" contradict each other, go ahead.



There's alot of openings with that qualification in the US gov. (note, if you say that I'm the same, remember, you are saying I should read this or look at that. Thus yet, I have not said read a bible or look at this art, so don't respond like that)


well, you don't really need to tell me to read the bible when i've read it thrice over...
i only recommended it as a recommendation to challenge your belief system, not so much for the book itself.



And on the list of Gods, so? I believe most religions are from the same origin.


um... the belief systems directly contradict each other in various ways and you're just showing how ignorant you are right now.



posted on Dec, 15 2007 @ 10:31 AM
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And on the list of Gods, so? I believe most religions are from the same origin.


I believe he was referring to Christianity, Islam and Judaism as being from the same origin… That’s how I took that statement, I could be wrong tho…



posted on Dec, 16 2007 @ 03:01 PM
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reply to post by JadePhoenix
 


really? then that wasn't a reference to my list

from that list:


currently serving 4862 gods, godesses, deities, avatars, incarnations, angels, demons and various spirits, and 520 aliases, mispronounciations and generally confusing name variations.


i'm sorry, but if you're just going to include the 3 current primary monotheistic faiths, it's not "most" it's "a small fraction"



posted on Dec, 16 2007 @ 11:21 PM
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Madness, you can present scientific proof until the cows come home but that won't change what most of the world thinks. Your battle is fruitless. Call us ignorant if you want, but it's like yelling at a brick wall. No ones listening.




see, this is what i predicted. you THINK this is how things went, but they might not have and it could have been an oversight on your part.


No. I checked my neck when I left as I always do, and then when I returned and I checked as I always do, there was nothing around my neck. I searched everywhere outside. When I got desperate, I searched inside. Fruitlessly though, for I knew it was outside. It is not how I think. It was I knew it was outside because I checked my neck when I left and came back. I'm very suspicious you see, on the account there is a "Ninja Burglar" around who comes up to people and robs them.
(No seriously, there is: www.nydailynews.com... )

And thank you for proving my point. You do not get a free pass card on communism being an economic system. Christianity is a system too. Atheism is another. Communism attempts to use atheism as a tool to make the government your GOd just as the Pope used Christianity to make himself a God in the middle ages. Don't try to put a does not equal sign between two 1s.


And nothing can challenge my beliefs because I don't care what others tell me if I saw what i saw. Don't like it? oh well, because I don't care. I probably prove the stereotype that you inherit the beliefs of those around you (Staten Island being the most catholic sector of New York) but screw it, It's how I think.

I'd like to point out thus far it has been a one way battle here. I'm defending my and all other faiths while you try to disprove it all with science. Allow me to relate this argument with trying to make two south poles of a magnet stick. Never going to work. People's beliefs and scientific minds are two different things. the two shall never agree and therefore cannot be equal. I maintain that all of science is right thus far, but I see how God can fit in. I used to think Science could be used to prove of disprove God. Now I see it as two things completely different. It's like trying to clean your bathroom with pile of dirt. It's foolish. I know there are millions of Gods and etc, but I don't care. I maintain that most that teach about love and etc are probably all rooted in the same God.

Call me ignorant, but the masses are always right (unless led by a dictator)

[edit on 16-12-2007 by Gorman91]

[edit on 16-12-2007 by Gorman91]



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