Hebrews 9:27
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
BUT
II Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
AND
Hebrews 11:5 adds: "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, 'and was not found, because God had taken him'; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

Some believe Elijah and possibly Enoch are the "Two Witnesses" mentioned in Revelations Chapt 11. Both were taken by supernatural means and did not experience death. But you would think they must according to Hebrews 9:27. This leads to many questions ...here are a couple

1) They were taken as mortal men in physical body...thus born from Adam with sin. How could they be allowed into heaven? If that is the case Where are they today? If they are in heaven it obviously is a physical place right? Yet only Christ has been resurrected and has eternal body

2) Thousands of years have passed.. if they are the witnesses then they are not aging or if they are they way older than Methusalah (age 969)
How can this be?

3) If one of the two is not one of the two witnesses then doesn't it violate the Hebrews 9:27 verse?

Theory..they were taken aboard a UFO which travelled near speed of light to who knows where...Only to return at the end times and be placed in jerusalem. The earth has aged thousands of years but Elijah and Enoch only a couple.

That is a very intriguing question indeed. As I understand it , Jesus left to go prepare a place, so until Judgment Day nobody except Jesus, God, and Angels are supposed to be in Heaven. Im very interested in seeing how this one pans out.







My 2 Cents,
Ancient 1

I don't know where they are. According to scripture, in "Heaven", with "God and the Angels".

Oh dear, this puts us back at square one of: who is God and the Angels? and what is Heaven?

So they could be on a UFO, or they could really truly be in heaven as it is written. Id like to think they are in Heaven, pleading with God to allow them to come to the Earth to die, so they can usher in Messiah.

[edit on 11/27/2007 by runetang]

IT CAME about that as [Elijah and Elisha] were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and Elijah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.”—2 Kings 2:11.

So the question is, "To Which heavens did Elijah ascend?

What is meant by the word “heavens” in this case? The term sometimes applies to the spiritual dwelling place of God and his angelic sons. as in(Matthew 6:9; 18:10)

But “Heavens” may also denote the physical universe. (Deuteronomy 4:19) And the Bible uses this term to refer to earth’s immediate atmosphere, where birds fly and winds blow, as ahown in Psalm 78:26; Matthew 6:26.

To which of these heavens did the prophet Elijah ascend? Evidently, he was transferred through earth’s atmosphere and placed on a different part of the globe. Elijah was still on earth years later, for he wrote a letter to King Jehoram of Judah. (2 Chronicles 21:1, 12-15)

That Elijah did not ascend to the spiritual abode was later confirmed by Jesus Christ, who declared: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man,” that is, Jesus himself.

The apostle Paul states that Enoch and others making up the great cloud of pre-Christian witnesses ‘all died’ and “did not get the fulfillment of the promise.” (Hebrews 11:13, 39) Why? Because all humans, including Enoch, have inherited sin from Adam. (Psalm 51:5; Romans 5:12) The only means of salvation is through the ransom sacrifice of Christ Jesus. (Acts 4:12; 1 John 2:1, 2) In Enoch’s day that ransom had not yet been paid. Therefore, Enoch did not go to heaven, but he is asleep in death awaiting a resurrection on earth.—John 5:28, 29.



[edit on 27-11-2007 by Sparky63]

With regard to Enoch:
Enoch was the first person described in the Scriptures as walking with God. The Bible record says: “After his fathering Methuselah Enoch went on walking with the true God.” (Genesis 5:22)

Then, after reporting the length of Enoch’s life—which, while long compared with our life span, was short for those days—the record says: “Enoch kept walking with the true God. Then he was no more, for God took him.” (Genesis 5:24)

Evidently, God transferred Enoch from the land of the living to the sleep of death before opposers could lay hold of him.

(Hebrews 11:5) 5 By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well. . .

Confirming that he really died we can refer to HEbrews 11:13

13 In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.

Jesus was the first one to ascend to heaven. (John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20) Enoch’s being “transferred so as not to see death” may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life while he was in that state.

Under such circumstances, Enoch did not suffer, or “see death,” at the hands of his enemies.

I was reading once on the Mayan calender and it mentions that part of their calendar is based on the moon cycles and is 360 days just like the Jewish calendar. I was wondering if Elijah had been picked up and taken to South America where he taught the Mayans their calender. The Mayans do mention a man with a long white flowing beard. Could he have been picked up by a UFO and dropped off in South America? I don't know if the timelines match up. It would be something to investigate. What timeline was this that Elijah went up in the whirlwind?

BlackProjects: I've always been taught they are the "two witnesses".

It just sounds logical. It doesn't take a great deal of stretching the imagination to think this.


Now, the UFO stuff...who can say?

[edit on 11/27/07 by Zane Zackerly]

ooooooooo chariots of fire......good song.

Wow thanks everyone some great thoughts.. Sparky63, I didn't know about that letter. Just seems to me the bible would have mentioned Enoch's death more specifically. (ala he died not this translated comment).

I know Lahaye and others believe one on the Two witness of revelation is none other than Moses. We do know of cases such as Lazarus where people die more than once. Also I belive there is mention somewhere about Moses body being prepared by angels..

I just don't think there can be an exception to the death rule....at least until the rapture. It could be that is mainly in there to demonstrate the idea of humans being "caught up"

They won't listen to them at first, but after they have been killed and put out for display, they rise from the dead. People might listen a little closer then.

Elijah and Enoch, its my understanding, did not experience 'death' - -
which every other individual on earth throughout history has done.

being "taken-out-of-this-world" is neither Death nor is it an Ascension
to Heaven, so Jesus and theology are both correct.
neither Elijah, Enoch ever 'ascended' to heaven...because they were whisked up to heaven, which is out of our time-space loop.

by deduction 'we' (in general) are thinking the 'two witnesses' are the two persons who scripturally never 'died' but are later sent to a particular time in earth history for a 'mission' during the period called 'End Times'/ (Daniels' 70th week)