British Teacher Faces 40 Lashes for Naming Class Teddy Bear 'Muhammad', page 55
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reply posted on 5-12-2007 @ 03:51 PM by Sparky63
Originally posted by kangjia57
He was always kind and polite to people who even insulted and threatened to kill him. Many times the angels came and said to him if you want we will destroy whoever denies you and Allah and we will combine the mountains and crush their cities. But he (peace be upon him) said to the angles I have been send as a mercy to the world, not to destroy it.This just shows how forgiveful was the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him).


I found this interesting. It seems to contradict your statement though.

SARIYYAH OF UMAYR IBN ADI"

Then (occurred) the sariyyah of Umayr ibn adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against Asma Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. Asma was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi.

She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her.

He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?"

He [Muhammad] said: "No two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).


Her people also knew about Muhammad having Abu Afak murdered, and they didn't care about that either.

The bottom line is that Asma b. Marwan was not a legitimate threat to Muhammad. She didn't scare him, she was not the leader of her tribe, and she had little or no influence.

She was little more than a nuisance to him. And one wonders why Muhammad didn't kill her himself? It was always easier for Muhammad to have someone else do his killing.

www.bible.ca...

Perhaps I have misunderstood this incident. If someone can justify why Muhammad had a woman who was breastfeeding her bady killed in the middle of the night, I would love to hear it.



[edit on 5-12-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 5-12-2007 by Sparky63]


reply posted on 5-12-2007 @ 07:38 PM by Odium
reply to post by Sparky63


Sparky, those are all from the Hadiths and your site doesn't even spell some of them correctly. It's not an overly accurate website.

You seem to forget that Islam, has differnet sub-groups. You seem to only quote one sub-group without being able to reference it in all of the others.

A Hadith is no different then something the Pope says. Some people belive what he says, even back when the Popes used to call for Jews to be killed, when they used to declare wars and so on and so fourth.


reply posted on 5-12-2007 @ 08:25 PM by Sparky63
Originally posted by Odium
reply to post by Sparky63


Sparky, those are all from the Hadiths and your site doesn't even spell some of them correctly. It's not an overly accurate website.



Thank you for your observations. I can't tell from your post whether or not you feel the account itself is accurate.

I'm sure the site may have some inaccuracies. It is basically a Anti-Muslim site afterall. I did however, check a Pro Muslim site that quoted the same account word for word.

Is the account generally accepted as a fact by Muslims of all groups or just a sub-group? and if so, which subgroup? The Sunni Muslim I know said the account is true.

I have found that most of the Muslims I know believe in the accuracy of the Hadiths. The account is generally accepted as fact although its interpretation varies. They believe it supplements or clarifies the Koran.

As I stated in my previous post, I want to know how Muslims can justify this event in Muhammads life.
As a non Muslim, I see this event as sullying Muhammads character. So I look forward to any Muslims views on this.



[edit on 5-12-2007 by Sparky63]



reply posted on 5-12-2007 @ 08:40 PM by Sparky63
Odium;
This is the same account quoted on a Pro Muslim website.
The spelling is almost identical and the account appears to be the same.

SARIYYAH OF ?UMAYR IBN ?ADI

Then (occurred) the sariyyah of Umayr ibn ?Adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against ?Asma Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him. ?Asma was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the Prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. ?Umayr Ibn ?Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced upto her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the Prophet, may Allah bless him, at al-Madinah. The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, said to him: Have you slain the daughter of Marwan? He said: Yes. Is there something more for me to do? He said: No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him. The Apostle of Allah, may Allah bless him, called ?Umayr, basir (the seeing).


muslim-responses.com...

I am not familiar with the author of the site or his work. But It does seem to me that both the Anti-Muslim & Pro-Muslim sites at least do not quibble over the account as it is recorded in the Hadith.

Now if we can dispense with the questions about spelling inaccuracies perhaps we can discuss the merits of Muhammads role in the death of this nursing mother. I welcome your comments and view on this matter.


[edit on 5-12-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 5-12-2007 by Sparky63]


reply posted on 6-12-2007 @ 03:35 AM by blueorder
reply to post by kangjia57


A wee question for ya chummy, how many wars/battles has Bush fought and how many did this man muhammad lead?


reply posted on 6-12-2007 @ 03:37 AM by blueorder
reply to post by Sparky63



I laugh at those muslims calling Bush a warmonger, muhammad's stats make Bush look like the prince of peace (be on him, upon him and around him or something!)



reply posted on 6-12-2007 @ 05:58 AM by kangjia57
Reply to Sparky63

"Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he had lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated."

Muhammad heard of this and viewed the 120 year old man as a threat to his credibility, not to his life. Nowhere does it say that Abu Afak urged his fellow Arabs to attack or harm Muhammad. Yet for speaking his mind, for the benefit of his friends, this man was murdered by Muhammad.

SARIYYAH OF UMAYR IBN ADI"

Then (occurred) the sariyyah of Umayr ibn adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against Asma Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. Asma was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi.

She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her.

He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?"

He [Muhammad] said: "No two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).

I would have responded to every single smart comment of yours but I don't feel like wasting my time. Now that we are fully aware of your treasure of knowledge, we can see through you. In other words the monkey has climbed all the way up and exposed himself. It’s even foolish to think that Muslims haven't disputed and humiliated these liars who claim Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a murderer or plotter in public debates.

Here are a few sites that prove that these events cannot be proved with strong evidence:

www.geocities.com...

islam.thetruecall.com...=News&file=article&sid=240


reply posted on 6-12-2007 @ 06:05 AM by Grenade
reply to post by blueorder



Your thoughts and opinions will be welcome in the new thread i started and linked to above. I dont think what we are discussing has any relevance to a teddy being named Muhammad so i have started a new thread which incorporates a more wide range of the pros and cons of Islam.

I look forward to your comments.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Please take the debate here before this thread is closed for going off topic.


reply posted on 6-12-2007 @ 07:32 AM by Sparky63
Originally posted by kangjia57
Reply to Sparky63

SARIYYAH OF UMAYR IBN ADI"

Then (occurred) the sariyyah of Umayr ibn adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against Asma Bint Marwan, ....snip


That same event has now been quoted at least three times in this thread...I will not quote it again.

But your reaction to my post is bizarre in my opinion. I clearly stated that my understanding of this event may be flawed....I asked for the viewpoint of any Muslims who would share with me their explanation of this event.
I asked a Muslim co-worker if he believed that this happened and he affirmed that it did.
I took the time to verify that the details of the account, as recorded in my first post regarding this, was accurate.
I found the same account on a Sunni Pro-Muslim website.
As a Westerner and a Non-Muslim I clearly welcomed the insight and comments from Muslims who would be more familiar with this account.

So now instead of responding to my questions and invitation you resort to calling me a monkey.

In other words the monkey has climbed all the way up and exposed himself.


Is this the typical response from Muslims when discussing this account?
Is it a touchy subject for your people?

You made some strange comment about my treasure of knowledge;

Now that we are fully aware of your treasure of knowledge, we can see through you.


Is this in reference to the website I supplied a link for? I clearly stated that it was Anti- Muslim site. I found the same account though , word for word, on a Sunni site. So I think your indignation is misplaced.

It’s even foolish to think that Muslims haven't disputed and humiliated these liars who claim Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a murderer or plotter in public debates.


I think the account speaks for itself. Muhammad ordered his followers to murder this woman. She was not a great warrior who could pose any physical threat to Muhammad or his band of men. She was a nursing mother.

Following Muhammad's orders to kill her, Muhammad's henchman snuck into her home in the cover of night while she slept. He carefully removed the suckling child from her breast and then killed her. Getting back in time for morning prayer.

Once again, this is my understanding of what took place. I still welcome your comments. Please, try to refrain from any personal assaults or name calling. It is not condusive to intellectual discussion.

Thank you for taking the time to supply the links. They offer much speculation about the motives and reasons for the murder of this nursing mother, but they do not Prove anything, in my humble opinion.

They were very helpful though, giving me the opportunity to look at this account from another angle.

Although you saw fit to levy a personal insult to me, I forgive you. I had hoped to have an intellectual discussion about this matter.

So far I gather: that if some violent act or questionable deed by Muhammad is called into question the response is something like this:

"Muhammad is Gods prophet......therefore questioning anything Muhammad did is in effect questioning Allah.....If you have no faith in Allah you are an infidel worthy of death. " Very nice.




[edit on 6-12-2007 by Sparky63]


reply posted on 6-12-2007 @ 08:28 AM by Sparky63
Originally posted by Odium
Originally posted by blueorderInsecure backward oafs


Which hold PHDs, Masters degrees and probably a much better level of education then you do.


I wonder how many of these people have PHD's Masters Degrees?



A high level of education does not make someone a good person. It does not mean that they wont be supporters of terrorists, or extremists. or less prone to violence. As far as I know, and correct me if I am wrong, but some muslims claim that Muhammad was illiterate. Although, it must be said that many deny this claim.

I remember a conversation I had with a Saudi student who stated something like" The Koran is a miracle because Muhammad could not read or write"

There still remains much controversy over this. It all has to to do with the meaning of the term Ummi” as referenced in 7/157-158, where Quran mentions the prophet as ‘Al-Nabbiyyil-ummi’.

The point is that although a good education is commendable, it in no way has a bearing on ones moral fiber.



[edit on 6-12-2007 by Sparky63]

[edit on 6-12-2007 by Sparky63]


reply posted on 6-12-2007 @ 08:42 AM by Odium
reply to post by Sparky63


Actually the term:
Backward Oaf by definition is one of mental comment and not moral comment. Your argument would have stood up if not for the fact he used the term oaf after backward. :-)
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