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British Teacher Faces 40 Lashes for Naming Class Teddy Bear 'Muhammad'

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posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 05:18 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by Stormdancer777
If they had to choose between your friendship or their god who do you think they would chose?

Goes for Christians too.


Why would they have to? Why would we have to? It doesn't have to be a "you against me" thing. That's the media's creation. Regardless of what some say here, we CAN coexist.


Can we?

Can the West look the other way as they practice their Sharia laws since we see it as a threat to basic human rights, and can Muslin's look the other way as they see our western life style a threat to their religion?

The major issues that the Taliban and Bin Laden have against us are their religious beliefs and their form of Sharia Law is what drove us to go into Afghanistan in the first place. I would say the majority of the west is totally against Sharia Law, but not anywhere near the extreme level that Muslins view our way of life.

So, once again can we, or is that just lip service to a problem that will one day come down to an us or them situation.




posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 05:21 PM
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reply to post by kangjia57
 




Originally posted by kangjia57
Im a british muslim citizen and for us religion first and the rest of the world after.

Sorry, I'm calling bullcrap here. Your religion comes after your love for the dollar. Else you would leave Britain and live in a country ruled by sharia law.

Or else you're a "fair weather" muslim.

Or else you're fabricating all this to stir up trouble on the board. I cannot believe that any sane person would advocate stoning a woman to death because she was raped by drooling animals. It reveals a deep hatred of women.



Originally posted by kangjia57
Now to make things simple and clear we have these punishments in sharia law because we cant tolerate this kind of stuff in society.We have these punishments because no one will dare commit these sins if they knew how harsh will the punishments be if they got caught.


You just proved my point. As I stated before, Islam is a religion of Fear.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 05:25 PM
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reply to post by kangjia57
 




Originally posted by kangjia57
I am not only a practising muslim but i also work in an organisation which is non political which invites people towards islam in this country (UK).And i have seen many converting to Islam and more people are interested about islam nowadays because of the large media attention.So if its soo harsh why do more and more people convert to islam?


Because there are a lot of lonely, misguided people in this world. There was a time when the KKK had high enrollments, too.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


No, all is not well.
I somehow suspect that you would have a different viewpoint if it was your mother or relative locked up in a Sudanese prison for merely calling a teddy bear a name.

The point I was making before is that Muslims are quite rightly allowed to express themselves and voice their opinion in the UK.
That right is not reciprocated in the vast majority of Muslim countries.
To deny that is to be blinkered to the extreme.

When in Rome, oh yes, I agree with that, but it should go both ways, to suggest that it does is naive.

I may have gone slightly off thread, as have most other contributors to this thread, but the points I raised were relevant to the tack as a whole the thread was / is taking.

I too travel extensively in the UK, both for work and pleasure; there are quite a few "no go areas". Go to Burnley and Oldham and try to say anything other.

I am aware of both the religous and racial make-up of Britain.
It has no relevance to the point I was making.
To be white, male, hetrosexual and working class today in Britain is to be ignored and disregarded.
Completely irrelevant to this thread and for that I apologise, just trying to explain my previous statement.

Please do not try to read any racial intolerance into the above statement because I assure you, that is not my intent.
Quite the opposite, numerous races and creeds contribute to, and enhance British society.

I have no particular gripe against any individual organised religion, I dislike them all equally!

I do have a problem with Muslim extremists and fundamentalists who seem intent on enforcing their interpretation of a belief system on anyone and everyone.

I do have a problem with people who seem more concerned with Muslim sensibilities rather than the family of this poor woman who has been treat so harshly for something so trivial.

Surely if she had inadvertently offended anyone it could have been dealt with in a little bit more considerate way.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 05:39 PM
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In amswer to neformore...........

YOu think that just because a particular group "muslims", living in a western country, cannot marginalise the larger group "non muslims", simply because their numbers are too low......

Your living in a dream world.

Here in AU, the Cities of Melbourne, Sydeny & Perth, all have areas that now are strictly Muslim only "by Law". Yet there are no places Stricly for non-Muslims & if a non muslim refuses to allow a muslim into a place their not welcome, "street marches, rallies, flag burning"...lol

The Non-Muslim community is slowly being persecuted by Muslims in their own countries. They can do & say & go where they like. But the rest of us are forbidden to do the same.

How is then not marginalising?

I don't cear if the number of muslims living in AU. GB or US are only about 1% - 2%. Currently they have more rights in these countries than the rest of the people living there.

And yes here in AU, there are more & more Islamic groups, DEMANDING, that AU be made into a total Islamic state "eventhough the islamic population is a minority".

They are demanding that Australian women be made to cover their bodies. Islamics go to Bondi Beach & spit at non-Muslim women laying on the sand sunbathing.

The Race riots two years ago was started when a large crowed of muslims converged onto Aussie Beaches & assaulted Aussie Women for defying the laws os Ahlla.

Is this just Islamics expressing their rights? Sue it is, but at the same time, the rest of us are not allowed to express our rights in public if it offends muslims..

Its a 1 way street they can do & say what they like But we are not because it might offend them.

How is that not marginalising?

Other minorities can come to Western countries & intergrate. Why do muslims have to be treated with so much respect & not have to respect back?

[edit on 11/29/2007 by Ironclad]



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 05:53 PM
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Originally posted by elysiumfire
but I've also seen non-islamics rationalise the rightness of the Sudaneses authorities in many ways that condemn the teacher's actions, as if it was entirely her own fault through ignorance. To be honest, this rattles me more than the the actions of the Sudanese, because these kind of criticisms come from a number of her own compatriots, from whom you do not expect to see criticism registered, but more of a conscienable support.


I guess thats partly aimed at me. So I'll respond.

Yes, the woman is English. And me, if you cut me, I bleed red white and blue. I'm about as English as you get. Patrotic to the core. I live in the greatest country in the world and I'm proud of it. Hell I'm even am a signatory of the Official Secrets Act.

I live in a multicultural society. Theres no escaping that and anyone who thinks the UK isn't a multicultural society is just plain ignorant. In my adult life I've worked with people from across the established religions, be they Sikh's, Hindus. Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Taoists... people from across the whole religious spectrum.

Now when you do that kind of thing the first thing you have to do is understand that different people do things in different ways. They eat different things, they believe different things. You pick up the little eccentricites and you run with them and at the same time the other people are doing the exact same with you.

You don't offer the Orthodox Jewish guy a bit of your bacon sandwich at breakfast.
You don't offer pick a Big Mac up for the the Hindu guy if you're passing McD's
When you see a Sikh guy with his ceremonial dagger you don't call the police because you are afraid he's going to stab you.

Its the little things. The devil is - as they say - in the detail.

Now maybe its me - and I'm perfectly willing to accept that it is - but if you are going to work in a Muslim country, surrounded by Muslim people, you might want to actually think about stuff a little before you do it, especially when it comes to naming an effigy after their top-of-the line one and only prophet himself. Call me picky if you want to, call me over-cautious or even call me PC, but hell its just a DUMB thing to do, and she wouldn't be in the position shes in now if she'd have thought along the lines of "I should ask a colleague about this before I do it." You see, what people are doing is absolving this woman of any vestige of personal responsibility for her own security and, they are also forgetting that - even in our civilised society - ignorance is no defence in the eyes of the law

Now - before the boo boys get on my back - heres my qualification and viewpoint on the subject matter - I think the whole episode is a farce, blown up out of all proportion and the woman should be set free. The whole "lash" thing is nuts, and, to me, not condoneable. All religion is crap as far as I'm concerned.

BUT

If someone from Sudan comes to the UK, and breaks a law here, I expect - in fact I'd go so far to demand - that they be tried here, under English law, for the crime they had committed, and if anyone suggested otherwise I'd be telling them where to get off because its none of their damned business.

Now like it or not, Sudan does things differently. I don't like it. You don't like it, but thats the way it is. I imagine theres a couple of Sudanese guys in GITMO right now. Who's law are they being held under? If someone in Sudan decides rendering them/waterboarding them and holding them in a cell is barbaric, is the US going to set them free? Hell no.

What I'm saying is that the woman broke a law in Sudan, and therefore is subject to Sudanese law

The specifics of the case are irrelevant. Thats how it is.

We would expect nothing different from foreign people in our countries if they broke our laws.

The punishment that was mooted, and optional and has not been applied in this case was way over the top, but thats none of our business at all.

I know its hard to step outside the emotional furore of this, but thats what I'm trying to do.

[edit on 29/1107/07 by neformore]



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 06:10 PM
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reply to post by planetfall
 





Originally posted by planetfall
if you wish to contribute, perhaps instead of bellyaching about how everyone is hatin' on muslims, you might offer up positive examples, articles, domunentation and other factual accounts.

These threads can get overheated very quickly, esp. when topics discuss lashing and stoning innocent people. Intrepid is doing a good thing by trying to maintain balance in the discussion. Try to see it from his pov. Else things get hot and threads get shut down.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 06:14 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 



When you see a Sikh guy with his ceremonial dagger you don't call the police because you are afraid he's going to stab you.


For your analogy to work, the Sikh if seen with his dagger in an airport, or anywhere that caused people some concern would have to be arrested, tried, convicted, punished and/or deported. See, that's the big difference and gross unfairness I think many are trying to point out. There seems to be tolerance of others to the point of bending over backwards in Western countries. Foreigners even demand to be able to practice their beliefs no matter how it might run counter to our laws and customs and have even tried to force us to change our laws to accomodate them. But in "some" muslim countries there "seems to be" no tolerance of others at all. Shouldn't it work the same either way? Why do some feel that we in the West always have to be the ones to concede and back down?

I mean if you had a pet crocodile, it wouldn't matter how nicely you treated it, sooner or later it is going to eat you.


[edit on 11/29/2007 by centurion1211]



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 06:21 PM
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Originally posted by Ironclad
Is this just Islamics expressing their rights? Sue it is, but at the same time, the rest of us are not allowed to express our rights in public if it offends muslims..


I'm sorry to say this - but who's fault is that exactly?

Is it the Muslims fault or is it the fault of a few stupid people who want to pander to Political Correctness?

There is nothing at all wrong with saying "this is our country, this is how we do things here, if you don't like it then please feel free to go somewhere that conforms to your views, either that or learn to deal with it in which case you are quite welcome to stay".

And if someone breaks the law, they need to be punished for it.

Thats not racism, or being anti-muslim. Thats just being realistic.

I thought you Aussies were supposed to be a straight talking lot? Mind you , the same goes on here. The problem isn't the Muslims, or any other religious set-up. In the main the problem comes from stupid people who think they might offend someone, and daren't talk straight for fear of being called a facist, when in fact they are actually fuelling facism by NOT talking straight.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 07:22 PM
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Hi There,


The specifics of the case are irrelevant.


Actually, they are very relevant, otherwise the teacher would not be in the circumstance she is in, nor would you have detailed her 'specific' situation in which she has found herself. The 'real' specific of the law is to prove her 'intent' to cause mischief, and not by any stretch of the imagination can she be accused of this, yet they have found her guilty on all accounts of causing offence. I ask...what offence? Is it not the 'offended' whom have caused the greater offence? I cannot reconcile the Sudanese culture of religious intoleration and the determined over-reaction of a very innocent faux pas.

Let us not forget that her so-called crime was for allowing a teddy bear to be named after a child of the class...whom happens to be called Mohammed: the toy was not named after the prophet. Not even you could have predicted the consequences of this (obviously) heinous act, not even with your preparatory study of the culture.


We would expect nothing different from foreign people in our countries if they broke our laws.


Except, we would not throw them in jail with pretensions to a flogging and a fine and a jail sentance for naming a toy Jesus. Let us maintain perspective, something the Sudanese are incapable of doing. Of course, you may have a justified claim to say that the terrorism laws allow our law agencies to detain suspects without charge, and I would agree with you that it is wrong in a so-called civilised society. Such abuse of state power is abhorrent to me, and is something I oft' speak out against. However, the situations are certainly not the same...and you know it.

Is it a clash of cultures? I don't think we could term it anything else, and I suppose where cultures rub against one another, there will always be some whom will seek to create extra heat from it in order to further their agenda. Again, let us maintain a perspective...we are not at war with 'terror', we are at war with fundamentalism, which lies insidiously within all cultures like a cancer, eating away at the very fabric of societies and their progressive trend to tolerant intermingling.


I live in a multicultural society. Theres no escaping that and anyone who thinks the UK isn't a multicultural society is just plain ignorant.


Again, this is a generalism that wants some argument. Not all of the UK is actually multicultural, there are pockets of 'olde England' still extant constellated around the country. The multiculturalism is tended to be found in the big cities and larger towns. I do not deny that multi-culture is spreading, but our ideology of being wholly multicultural actually precedes the physical reality of being so. This argument, however, cannot in any way excuse the Sudanese, for by the very evidence of their action, they are to deny multiculture unless it fits in with their abominable fundamentalist state law. Multiculturalism can only succeed by the benevolence of the host nation and its people. Without that base support, multiculturalism is merely points of flashed antagonism.


I guess thats partly aimed at me.


Perhaps...but not specifically...peace.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777

Originally posted by mrsdudara
I have to say, Im impressed.

This was an amazingly fair sentencing.


Seriously?




Absolutely.

What she did was wrong. I think giving anyone lashes is wrong as well. This sentencing was totaly fair.

What she did could very well have been, or been seen as manipulative. Manipulating 7 year olds, when dealing with religion is a line that just is not allowed to be crossed there. Not just because they are passionate about their faith, but because - I assume - it causes chaos.

If you are going to go to another country, for whatever reason, you have to live by the law of their land. Showing respect towards this religion is manditory. She knew that. She chose not to. For the rules to not be applied to her would have been wrong. They made an excelent and fair compromise.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 07:32 PM
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Showing respect towards this religion is manditory. She knew that. She chose not to.


And you can prove your fallacious argument that...

a) religion must be respected, as opposed to voluntary respect.

b) She knew it? So she had a plan to cause chaos?

c) She chose not to? In following through her plan?

You are stating that her allowance for the naming of the bear was a deliberate provocation...I deny you this claim unless you can prove each point you make in your argument.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


How on earth was she to know it was a big NO NO for to name a bear after a prophet....when the Muslims themselves from her own country decided to name a bear after a prophet?


Dilwar Hussain, of the Islamic Foundation, has no problem with a teddy bear called Muhammad. For some years, the Islamic Society sold a soft toy made for British Muslim children named Adam the Prayer Bear. "Adam is also the name of a Prophet."
news.bbc.co.uk...



Apparently there is MUCH confusion w/in their own religion on what can and can not be named Mohammed. If their own people are confused, then on on Earth can anyone expect this teacher to know whether or not it is okay to do.




The issue has been a vexed one for Muslims through the ages. Some believe that the name can only be given to boys - to give it to an object is idolatry. Others say that pets and toys can bear the name.

But Adel Darwish, the political editor of The Middle East magazine, says that Muslim children - "like children everywhere" - give their pets the names of characters they liked, be it a religious figure, sports hero or pop singer.

"Millions of Muslim children in Muslim nations give their dolls, pets and teddies Muslim names of the Prophet and his mother, daughters and wives."




The excuse that she should have known is ridiculous. How could she have known when they themselves are in disagreement over it. And how many times when preparing to go to another country to you check every flippn law and offense? You don't. Nobody does. They certainly don't when they come here or England.

And I'm sure she knew that Islam is such a religion of peace that they would be incredibly forgiving if she happened to make such a mistake. After all, isn't that something they teach in their religion? I would think so, being a religion of peace and all.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 07:41 PM
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reply to post by mrsdudara
 





If you are going to go to another country, for whatever reason, you have to live by the law of their land. Showing respect towards this religion is manditory. She knew that. She chose not to.


She knew what? Exactly where is there a LAW that says "do not name toys names of prophets"? There is not one. In fact, its done all the time by Muslims!

See my article above. According to many Muslims she did NOT disrespect their religion.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 08:03 PM
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YOu are correct that it is the fault of some gutless politicians who are afraid of being called racicts.

Though the general "non-Muslim" public are forbidden from doing or saying anything to offend Muslims, "while at the same time Muslims are not forbidden from insulting or harassing non-Muslims"....

Things will only get worse too as our governments bend over backwards to accommodate Islamic groups.

Things here in AU are definitely getting worse people on both sides are staring to get nervous.

In the last few weeks here in Melbourne, there have been over a dozen attacks on non-Muslims within the city & outer suburbs "by Muslim gangs".

One of the worst incidents, in the foyer of the Alfred Hospital "a fekken hospital for gods sake". An Islamic gang Actually charged into the hospital screaming in Arabic & attacked Several Patients "two of which are in a critical condition". "THEY ATTACKED THE PATIENTS" Who were already sick & un able to defend themselves!!! Now how guttless is that!!!

This was just the first attack, there were 3 more assaults on the hospital & its grounds.

Then there was the incident in the city center this week, where a police officer was beaten by an islamic gang & eventhough they knew they wre all on camera, it still didn't deter them!!!

We can't even walk in the streets our own state capital without being harrasses by Islamic gangs. "telling women to cover up as they pass by and assaulting anyone who looks at them the wrong way... they simply are not afraid..!!

And yet the government still won't protect us, because they don't want the islamic community to be offended.

If these attacks don't stop, there’s no telling how far it will go..!!

It's only a matter of time before non-Muslims get fed up with being beaten & harassed "While the government dose nothing to stop it", just to keep the Muslim community appeased.

If they are not careful, things could very quickly blow up into a full on race war. Which would mean the Armed forces would have to intervene to stop both sides from wiping each other out.

This is something we have never had in AU before "the army on the streets" but it will happen soon if something isn't done to ensure that both sides have equal rights & restrictions!

But this isn't going to happen if non-Muslims protest or petition or campaign..

I hope it doesn’t happen, but the way things are going here, an all out race war is imminent. It will start with the Gangs "tit for tat" assaults on each others people & then spread to the rest of the community as people "on both sides", start to protect themselves from the gangs.From there it won't take too long for Regular citizens to start clashing too.

And then it all spirals out of control.

And if it dose happen here, you can bet it will happen elsewhere in other western countries too...


[edit on 11/29/2007 by Ironclad]

[edit on 11/29/2007 by Ironclad]

[edit on 11/29/2007 by Ironclad]

[edit on 11/29/2007 by Ironclad]



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 08:34 PM
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OK who is going to be the first to capatalize on this?

Just in time for Christmas....It's the Mohammed Bear!

Someone Please get this into production immediately!

Other great gift ideas....

Koran toilet paper...

Mohammed Tennis Shoes....but with the Mohammed label on the bottom of the shoe....

Mohammed Pork Rinds? A great after Christmas meal treat!

You get the idea! Some enterprising entrepeneur could make millions!



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 08:46 PM
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Originally posted by RRconservative
OK who is going to be the first to capatalize on this?

Just in time for Christmas....It's the Mohammed Bear!

Someone Please get this into production immediately!

Other great gift ideas....

Koran toilet paper...

Mohammed Tennis Shoes....but with the Mohammed label on the bottom of the shoe....

Mohammed Pork Rinds? A great after Christmas meal treat!

You get the idea! Some enterprising entrepeneur could make millions!


I am designing a series of Mohammed Teddy Bear T-Shirts right now...lol

The first one is called "the last great act of Defiance" Which depicts a "GIANT", mohammed teddybear about to squash a Tiny British teatcher

As a last act of Defians, the Teatcher is giving him the Birdie...


[edit on 11/29/2007 by Ironclad]



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Islam is a religion of Fear.


Jso. I have to agree.

But, so is Christianity. Just saying.

BTW, I'm only comparing the two as religions of fear. That's all.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by Griff

Originally posted by jsobecky
Islam is a religion of Fear.


Jso. I have to agree.

But, so is Christianity. Just saying.

BTW, I'm only comparing the two as religions of fear. That's all.


Let's see...

In Christianity if you do not live a good Christian life you go to hell, ok fear I can see it.

To live this good life you need to do on to others as you would like them do on to you to live a good life in more or less words and then you are heaven bound.

Ok in Islam, if you do not live a good Muslim life you do not get your virgins and (I’m not sure about this) go to hell too, but you get there much quicker as your Muslim brothers follow Islamic Law and kill you.

So I’m a Muslim and I’m dating the daughter of a Christian what do I really have to fear? Maybe her father at best, but then he would not be acting as a good Christian. Now, I’m a Christian and I’m dating the daughter of a Muslim and the only thing I have to fear now is her five uncles that come to kill me with baseball bats. The problem here is the five uncles ARE acting as good Muslims.

The problems on the Christianity side is that the issues are on an individual level, but on the Muslim side it is on the establishment level that dictates all this to the individuals.

There is a really big difference between the two that is so very visible in the Muslim world.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 09:30 PM
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Originally posted by mrsdudara
If you are going to go to another country, for whatever reason, you have to live by the law of their land. Showing respect towards this religion is manditory. She knew that. She chose not to. For the rules to not be applied to her would have been wrong. They made an excelent and fair compromise.


She was showing respect by naming the teddy bear "Mohammad" instead of the evil blood-sucking western-christian-white-male-fascist-imperalist-colonialist name "Bob". Those bloody ingrates twisted the rules and stabbed her in the back for her act of kindness. Bomb 'em all.




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