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British Teacher Faces 40 Lashes for Naming Class Teddy Bear 'Muhammad'

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posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by planetfall
my agenda is very plain. islam must be known for what it really is, right or wrong. knowledge will set us all free.


"Islam must be known for what it really is" - that says it all really. What you mean is that you are trying to present an open argument from a closed mind.



atheist, hmm? you'd be among the first buried waist deep and stoned to death by the folks you defend. allah doesnt care about your personally held beliefs, if it doesnt involve worshipping HIM totally.


Not defending. Observing from a distance and commenting. I haven't defended anything.

But.... you're an American and - from your writings - a christian. That means that you uphold the values of free speech, meaning anyone anywhere read and believe what they like, and your religion - whilst being steeped in a history of violence in its name - has, for one of its main ideological concepts the idea that you turn the other cheek and accept the failings of others knowing that god forgives all for their sins - right?

Umm....

[edit on 27/1107/07 by neformore]




posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by _Phoenix_

Originally posted by neformore


If you think this was Christian bashing, then you are wrong.

I'm trying to make a point.

I wouldn't bother with him, lol. Its just impossible. Lets give up before we waste any more energy on him and this.


yeah, thats right, bail out. its the best thing to do when you consider your own position so weak all you can defend it with is: "oh yeah's and 'sez you's"

why dont you quote the koran as much as i have in its defense? why not quote the hadith, too? like i have? why not point to historical records to support your point, as i have?

well? we're waiting...



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by planetfall
my agenda is very plain. islam must be known for what it really is, right or wrong. knowledge will set us all free.


"Islam must be known for what it really is" - that says it all really. What you mean is that you are trying to present an open argument from a closed mind.



atheist, hmm? you'd be among the first buried waist deep and stoned to death by the folks you defend. allah doesnt care about your personally held beliefs, if it doesnt involve worshipping HIM totally.


Not defending. Observing from a distance and commenting. I haven't defended anything.

But.... you're an American and - from your writings - a christian. That means that you uphold the values of free speech, meaning anyone anywhere read and believe what they like, and your religion - whilst being steeped in a history of violence in its name - has, for one of its main ideological concepts the idea that you turn the other cheek and accept the failings of others knowing that god forgives all for their sins - right?

Umm....

[edit on 27/1107/07 by neformore]


religions that uphold the belief that unbelievers must be converted or killed cannot be tolerated. there is no room for them. my agenda is obvious. people should know, thats all.

islam has demonstrated this seriously, you may have 'observed', by word and most notably, by deed.

no?

have you observed different? lets hear some of the warm, fuzzy things you've noticed about our friends to the east?



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 09:46 AM
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Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Damn this guy doesnt even try reading anything, instead he goes around trying to find bad things about the website. lol I give up. For real, think what you want. I hope others see the light.


all i do is read, and copiously.

...and what exactly would that 'light' be?

be specific.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 09:55 AM
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Originally posted by planetfall

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Damn this guy doesnt even try reading anything, instead he goes around trying to find bad things about the website. lol I give up. For real, think what you want. I hope others see the light.


all i do is read, and copiously.

...and what exactly would that 'light' be?

be specific.

Once again. www.muhaddith.org...
Scroll down and read. Scroll down and read fully.

The light? Well heres something from YOUR profile:
"Stuff I Don't Like
Closed minded, lazy debunkers. Its easier to keep your head firmly in the sand than consider the possibilities. Well researched, informed skepticism is a better approach."

Sounds like something you should be doing, following your own advice, instead of quoting without first studying and fully understanding the quote. Like I said you have to read and fully understand the whole chapter, or you wont get it.

By the way please try at least reading the link a little bit before quickly rushing to post reply. Scroll down and read.

Ill be ignoring you from now on only in this thread, this is the last time Ill be posting here, so I would recommend not wasting your time repeatedly talking to me, because there will be no reply.






[edit on 27-11-2007 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:06 AM
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Originally posted by planetfall

have you observed different? lets hear some of the warm, fuzzy things you've noticed about our friends to the east?



In what context? That they are people, they have families, they have hopes and aspirations in the same way that everyone does maybe? They want the best for their families and their children.

They live, they breathe, they eat, they die. They are human.

Some of them are idiots who want to kill people. Thats no different than people in the west.

Some of them are overtly religious. Thats no different than people in the west.

Our "friends to east" are exactly the same as you and I.

Apart from the fact that they read a different book than you do.

Fact is , one of our "friends to the east" is probably sitting on a mainly Islamic forum making exactly the same points about the bible as you are about the Koran. He hates you just as much as you hate him. He'll be listing every percieved western atrocity against his people, and quotes from the bible. You are well suited - and heres the reason why.

In essence, you are exactly the same.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:09 AM
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More serious charges may be brought against her, sedition for one,




We don't have any teddy bears over here, so in Sudan, for us, it is a fierce and dangerous animal, Dr Khalid al Mubarak, media counsellor, Sudan Embassy


news.bbc.co.uk...

OH really?!

I think, it may be more what she was trying to instill in the children, democracy, since they had to vote for the name.

Sedition is more about encouraging the people to rebel, when treason is actually betraying the country





Gillian Gibbons, 54, from Liverpool, England, now must also fear for her life. The school, Unity High School in central Khartoum, Sudan, shut down until January, in hopes of thwarting any violence against the campus and Gibbons herself. Young men, Reuters reported, had gathered outside the police station where Gibbons was being held.


www.timesrecordnews.com...




“I had no problem with it at all,” the teacher said. “I know Gillian and she would never have meant it as an insult. I was just impressed that she got them to vote.”


hmmmmm



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:15 AM
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Originally posted by intrepid

So your post to me was basically an attack on moderators? Isn't that off topic as well? At least mine had a point behind it.


Now how on earth can you come to that conclusion? I have no idea. You stsarted to go off topic, as always is the way with ANY damn discussion about islam, and I pointed it out. You get defensive VERY easy I notice. *sigh*

Whatever, you wear the pointy hat, you know damn well what you are doing...


Now back to the topic. I wouldn't want to disappoint you.


yeah whatever.






posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:18 AM
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Well, we'll find out soon enough what could happen -

www.timesonline.co.uk...

A British teacher facing 40 lashes in Sudan over a school teddy bear named Muhammad will discover today whether she will be charged with blasphemy.

Gillian Gibbons, 54, is being questioned for a second day by police in Khartoum on suspicion of insulting Islam's prophet for allowing her seven-year-old pupils to give the toy the name of the prophet.

She was moved to a cell at the CID Criminal Police Exploration Bureau for further questioning. A file on the case will be sent to the department of public prosecutions and a judge should decide today whether she should be charged.

Robert Boulos, the director of Unity High School, the British school where Ms Gibbons worked, said that she was in “very high spirits and being treated well”.


And trying to not keep this bloody religious back-and-forth argument going BUT, how much of Western law is dictated by the Bible? And how much of Sharia law is based on the Qur'an

I ask this because of the constant quotes from both sources as though they are one and the same. But, if one is more of a guide to what should happen TODAY, while the other stays in the past, then I think they stop being comparable.

[edit on 27/11/2007 by Muppetus Galacticus]



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by mad bloke
if you read this article right the teacher let the children name the bear
will they be punished as well? This is so stupid and petty.


Yeah but so many stupid and petty things happen in the bible, I mean, if you're going to criticize these people, Im sure I can bring up just as many stupid and petty things that have happened in Venezuela, so lets just not limit our discussions here to the fact we are talking about a certain mindset, and expand our argument to include amoeba and air. yeah.. Thats the only way we can have a rational objective.

Otherwise you're painting a bad picture, man.. oh wow..




posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by _Phoenix_

Once again. www.muhaddith.org...
Scroll down and read. Scroll down and read fully.

The light? Well heres something from YOUR profile:
"Stuff I Don't Like
Closed minded, lazy debunkers. Its easier to keep your head firmly in the sand than consider the possibilities. Well researched, informed skepticism is a better approach."

Sounds like something you should be doing, following your own advice, instead of quoting without first studying and fully understanding the quote. Like I said you have to read and fully understand the whole chapter, or you wont get it.

By the way please try at least reading the link a little bit before quickly rushing to post reply. Scroll down and read.

Ill be ignoring you from now on only in this thread, this is the last time Ill be posting here, so I would recommend not wasting your time repeatedly talking to me, because there will be no reply.

[edit on 27-11-2007 by _Phoenix_]


oh i read it, terrorists would have to politely disagree with that.

i wont pretend that islam is anything other than what it claims to be and acts to be. go ahead and bury your head in the desert sands, if you're not muslim now you may find its suitable for you. i wouldnt be surprised, lots of people swear by it (so to uh, speak...)

debunking that islam is anything other than what it clearly states it is, especially debunking without sources, references or any factual knowledge is lazy and close minded.

but i know, some folks cant be swayed by the facts when their mind is already made up, apparently... tsk tsk, i say.

do you mean there are other ways to interpret these passages, other than for what they say? you've had NUMEROUS opportunities to respond with facts, quotes, passages, examples, etc... and have chose not to, for whatever reason (my guess the lack of anything defensible)

Sura (8:55) - Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve

Sura (48:29) - Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves

Sura (9:30) - And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah... Allah (Himself) fights against them. How perverse are they!

Sura (8:12) - I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them

Sura (9:123) - O you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness

Sura (5:33) - The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement


"I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them..." (Bukhari 8:387)


Sura (16:106) - Establishes that there are circumstances that can "compel" a Muslim to tell a lie.

Sura (3:28) - This verse tells Muslims not to take those outside the faith as friends, unless it is to "guard themselves."

Sura (40:28) - A man is introduced as a believer, but one who must "hide his faith" among those who are not believers.

Sura (2:225) - "Allah will not call you to account for thoughtlessness in your oaths, but for the intention in your hearts"

Sura (66:2) - "Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths"


From the Hadith:

Bukhari (52:269) - "The Prophet said, 'War is deceit.'" The context of this is thought to be the murder of Usayr ibn Zarim and his thirty unarmed men by Muhammad's men after he "guaranteed" them safe passage (see Additional Notes below).

Bukhari (49:857) - "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." Lying is permitted when the end justifies the means.

Bukhari (84:64-65) - Speaking from a position of power at the time, Ali confirms that lying is permissible in order to deceive an "enemy."

Bukhari (52:271) - Recounts the murder of a poet, Ka'b bin al-Ashraf, at Muhammad's insistence. The men who volunteered for the assassination used dishonesty to gain Ka'b's trust, pretending that they had turned against Muhammad. This drew the victim out of his fortress, whereupon he was brutally slaughtered despite putting up a ferocious struggle for his life.


From Islamic Law:

Reliance of the Traveler (p. 746) - "[it is] obligatory to lie if the goal is obligatory... Whether the purpose is war, settling a disagreement, or gaining the sympathy of a victim legally entitled to retaliate... it is not unlawful to lie when any of these aims can only be attained through lying. But is is religiously precautionary in all cases to employ words that give a misleading impression..."


cherry picking? i could go on and on and on.... cherry picking... feh. islam is a veritable cherry orchard. but, i know, its easier to pretend islam is sweet and nice in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

do you have evidence to dispute these claims? why keep them to yourself? bring them forth already, sheesh.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:21 AM
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Some years back, the Islamic Society of Britain sold a toy called Adam the Prayer Bear which recited different Islamic prayers when you pressed its paws or ears. No one took any offence at the time at the use of the Prophet Adam's name.

commentisfree.guardian.co.uk...

Human Rights
www.religioustolerance.org...

One more thing I don't understand you people who try and white wash this problem,



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:26 AM
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reply to post by Muppetus Galacticus
 






And how much of Sharia law is based on the Qur'an

Of course we know the answer to this question,
en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:29 AM
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Originally posted by neformore

Originally posted by planetfall

have you observed different? lets hear some of the warm, fuzzy things you've noticed about our friends to the east?



In what context? That they are people, they have families, they have hopes and aspirations in the same way that everyone does maybe? They want the best for their families and their children.

They live, they breathe, they eat, they die. They are human.

Some of them are idiots who want to kill people. Thats no different than people in the west.

Some of them are overtly religious. Thats no different than people in the west.

Our "friends to east" are exactly the same as you and I.

Apart from the fact that they read a different book than you do.

Fact is , one of our "friends to the east" is probably sitting on a mainly Islamic forum making exactly the same points about the bible as you are about the Koran. He hates you just as much as you hate him. He'll be listing every percieved western atrocity against his people, and quotes from the bible. You are well suited - and heres the reason why.

In essence, you are exactly the same.



i'd like to see that forum, i wonder when the last time a buddhist flew planes into a few skyscrapers? or christians? or did anything even a tiny bit close to what muslim enthusiasts are up to?

read a different book than i do? lady, you havent been paying attention, i am very much so reading the book that they do. and in great detail.

i do not hate anyone, again, another assumption, you have a stereotype in your head and boy, are you ever wrong.

venomous snakes will bite you and you will die. its the nature of the snake. i do not hate the snake, but i am aware of its tendencies.

do i want those snakes crawling free in my house? no.

is that " hatin' "?

no. its knowledge. are we all clear on this yet?

no different than people who live in the west?

you may have noticed, 'observer', a marked lack of this going on by westerners:

Gay Wedding Participants Beaten, Jailed (Morocco)...

Iran Uses Islamic Martyrdom Theme to Name Ballistic Missile...

Britain Works to Stop Whipping Over Teddy Bear...

(Iraq) Blushing 'Bride' Sports Five-O'clock Shadow...

Hamas Promises Deadlier Rockets for Israelis...

Malaysia Crushes Hindu Rally...

Saudis: Teenage Victim 'Provoked' Her own Rape with 'Indecent' Dress...

Food Aid Burned by the Taliban...

Mauritania Offers 'Social Programs' for Ex-Slaves...

(Sudan) British Teacher Arrested for 'Teddy Bear Blasphemy'...

Religion of Peace: Seven Children Murdered in their Home...

Muslims Set Fire to France (again)...

Woman Sentenced to 3 Years for Claiming 'Christian' ID...

[CAIR-Linked] Hamas Protests Peace Conference...

Islamic Terrorists Target Iraqi Physicians, Professionals...

(UK) Reality TV Show Aims to Soften Attitude toward Sharia

Saudis Defend 200 Lashes, Say Rape Victim was also Adultress

Freedom Fighters Shoot 9 Abducted Iraqis in the Head...

Indonesia Invites Tourists to See Sharia, Public Canings...

(Bengladesh) Islamists Try to Stop Delivery of US Aid...

Pakistan Suicide Bus Blast Kills 15

Bare Belly-Button Blurred for Afghan TV Audience...

Islamists Bomb Pet Market, Kill 13 Humans...

Arabs Agree to Annapolis Talks - But Won't Shake Jewish Hands...

Couple Beheaded in Front of Their Children for Wearing 'Western' Clothes...

Turkish Killers on Trial for Brutal Murder of Christians...

Mujahideen Bomb Three Indian Cities...

Details on Martyrdom Video ('CAIR's Kids' - South Carolina)...

Bali Bombers Expect 'Blessing' for Killing Kafirs...

Kolkata Mob Hunts for Author Who Alleged Islam is Violent...

Fundamentalists Bomb Music Shops (Pakistan)...

Priest Told to Accept Religion of Peace or Else...

Video Shows Jihadis Training in English Countryside...

Whining Pays Off as Toronto Company Buckles to CAIR...

New 'Allah' Cartoon Riles Muslims (South Africa)...

Iran Sentences 50 Young People to Death for 'Immorality'...

Non-Muslims to Lose Citizenship in Maldives (Blog)...

Muslims Riot over Speaking Invitation to Feminist...

Bomb Threats Force Girls into Burqas (Pakistan)...

Support for Consanguineous Marriage at UAE Genetics Conf.

al-Qaeda 'Lone Wolves' Worry FBI (11 US Civilians Shot in 2003)...

Saudis 'Just Say No' to Drugs...

Indonesians Hope Bribes Can 'Win Over' Jihadis...

Bhutto Bomb May Have Been Strapped to an Infant...

'Peace and Unity' Event to Feature Jihad Advocate...

Israeli Father Gunned Down by Palestinian Terrorists...

Egyptian Blogger Beaten in Prison (Jailed for Insulting Islam)...

USAID Funding Terrorism?

Saudis Punish Gang-Rape Victim's Lawyer...

Man Marries Daughter - Claims Allah's Sanction...

(US) Lax Background Checks an 'Embarrassment'...

Muslim Prosecutor Arrested for Using Sex Slaves...

Islamic Mob Attacks 'Suspected' Christian Church...

Israel Pressed to Apologize for Existing...

(US) Terror Apologist, Wife Beating Advocate to Speak at OSU

UK TV Network Vindicated in 'Undercover Mosque' Uproar...

Fist Fight Between 'Religious Men' Breaks Up Mosque Wedding

Muslims Banned from Proposed Indonesian Casino...

Fedayeen Target Children Receiving Toys from US Troops...

Terrorism Pays off for Filipino Islamists...

Afghan 'Freedom Fighters' Torture, Mutilate Local Police...

(US) More Airplane Shenanigans?

Death Toll from Sunni-Shia Clash Nears 100 (Pakistan)...

(Iraq) 30 Shia Bodies Found in One Sunni House...

Airline Sued for Religious Discrimination Over Dress Code...

17th Century Chapel Smashed into Ruins (Turkey)...

Two Afghan Brides Killed in Taliban Ambush...

Mosque Members Have Disagreement, Begin Shooting...

YouTube Islamist Arrested for Threatening Christian Leader...

Nabbed French Islamists had High-Calibre Weapons...

Saudi Housewife Divorced for Watching Television by Herself...

Fatwa: Reality TV Meets the Reality of Islam...

Saudi Ambassadors Shop for Guns and Girls...

Massacre of 59 Tourists Still Impacts Local Economy (Egypt)...

Survivors of Pirate Attack Tell Tale of Horror...

al-Qaeda Vows to Behead Ethiopian Children...



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:31 AM
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It is weird but it is not Americas or Christians so let's embrace them, gosh you people are so obvious.

Can you imagine if an American Christian group was getting ready to lash a Buddhist, or Muslims?

There is such a double standerd on this forum.

Sudan Sues Charity Over 'Darfur' Kids
ap.google.com...

[edit on 103030p://bTuesday2007 by Stormdancer777]



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 10:42 AM
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First, before i start having accusations hurled at me, i'll get it out of the way; i am a non-practicing jew. Now, having said that, I like a lot of people in the post-9/11 world, have done at least some limited study on Islam.

First, for those who keep mucking up "islam" with "peace", here's a tidbit: Islam does not translate to "peace", as so many apologetic movies and books would have you believe. Islam means submission to god. Pretty hardcore, huh? Now, relating the horrors of all religions to the horrid violations of human rights and acts of terrorism perpetrated by muslims is easy, but flawed. The core of the christian faith have evolved from the days of the crusades and the inquisition. Where is the evolution and revolt from muslims in the middle east over the afore-mentioned rape victim lashings and so on?

It isn't there. And if it is, it's so downplayed by the powers that be in the muslim community that it's swallowed up by the hysteria swirling around it.

Like any religion, good things can be harvested from it's core fundamentals; but if you honestly believe that Islam is not a religion built on violence (all the way up from mohammed) you know absolutely nothing about the history you are trying to defend.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by PartChimp
Like any religion, good things can be harvested from it's core fundamentals; but if you honestly believe that Islam is not a religion built on violence (all the way up from mohammed) you know absolutely nothing about the history you are trying to defend.


We are defending Islam? Does that mean others are attacking Islam then?



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by intrepid
We are defending Islam? Does that mean others are attacking Islam then?


Yes, there are some people here attacking Islam. There are also some here logically and coolly pointing out its irredeemable flaws. So all semantics aside, i find it curious how arduous a task Islam apologists are making this business of theirs. I also find it interesting how a lot of people defend Islam by attacking other religions (namely Christianity, often because of transparent reasons). Cavemanish, no? Sorry. The facts are there. Keep telling yourself what you want though. I'm sure you will.



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 11:20 AM
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40 lashes for a 54 year old visiting female visiting teacher?For this?That is madness



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 11:23 AM
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She has still not been charged yet, but is this merely prosecutor talk and he is gunning to improve his name, or could they really be going all-out on this?

afp.google.com...

As mother Gillian Gibbons spent a second full day in police custody, Justice Minister Mohammed Ali Mardhi was quoted in the local press as ordering General Prosecutor Salaheddin Abu Zaid to take personal charge of the case.

"This lady was arrested because of a complaint under Article 125 of the penal code and the investigation is continuing," Abu Zaid told AFP."Questioning started yesterday and is continuing today. We are also questioning witnesses and, if witnesses bring new elements to light, the charges could become more serious," added the prosecutor.



Although the affair aroused scant attention in the Khartoum media, some dailies speculated that the British mother in her 50s could be charged with sedition, a far more serious charge than insulting Muslims.



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