It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Lightning or Typhoon - you decide

page: 2
0
<< 1   >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 04:55 PM
link   

Originally posted by kilcoo316
It will come back to low flying incursion for strikes, and guess what, the EFT is better for that than the F-35 - why? Because it isn't gonna be # scared of birdstrikes.


Low level ingress strike mission will never happen again unless there is a substantial improvement in aircraft survivability. The majority of aircraft combat losses since World War II continues to be AAA/MANPADs. Hence why there is a tactical floor that you don't fly below during operations. The Tornado crews found out the hard way in Gulf War '91. Unless you simply can't operate above the tac floor (helicopters for example), there is no reason to be in the trashfire given precision guided munitions, and the level of fidelity of modern IR/EO senors. In the same way that only an idiot would take a fifth gen expensive LO/VLO platform to the merge in the air to air arena, only an idiot would give a guy with a 14.5mm gun an opportunity to make his control surfaces resemble swiss cheese.




posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 05:06 PM
link   
reply to post by Willard856
 



Which raises another question, which is harder to detect, a supercruising Typhoon, or an F-35 flying at the same speed with burners on?

Also if the F-35 wishes to remain stealthy, does that mean its performance is limited by need to a level no better than the Harrier?

Hmmm



posted on Nov, 27 2007 @ 05:59 PM
link   
It is ashame when national pride impedes making the best choices in military hardware.

The fact of the matter is, the F-35 inherets a signifcant amount of R&D that went into making the F-22. The industrial and technological base the F-35 hails from is without a doubt superior to the Eurofighter consortium.

This reminds me of the 70s when we considered the F-14 Tomcat too expensive to acquire for the UK, and so the Tornado was created as a cheaper alternative.



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 04:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by waynos
There was never any possibility of a Naval Typhoon being developed as in its early days the Govt was thinking only in terms of our tiny carriers, hence our current fixation with the F-35B.


Which was a(nother) mistake by the government - no flexibility.


Its quite ironic that the things the French were after in the Eurofighter are now the things the UK are seeking.

[edit on 28/11/07 by kilcoo316]



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 04:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by Willard856
Low level ingress strike mission will never happen again unless there is a substantial improvement in aircraft survivability. The majority of aircraft combat losses since World War II continues to be AAA/MANPADs.



Against a 'modern integrated air defense' you will fly low IMO. A patriot or S-3/400 will eat you alive if your up in easy tracking altitude.

While the majority of recent losses may be from trash-fire, those losses have been against 3rd rate defense systems. In my opinion, those loss rates would remain similar against a modern defense, but the high alt losses would climb, and climb quickly to a point beyond that of low-level incursions.



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 04:35 AM
link   

Originally posted by SteveR
It is ashame when national pride impedes making the best choices in military hardware.

The fact of the matter is, the F-35 inherets a signifcant amount of R&D that went into making the F-22. The industrial and technological base the F-35 hails from is without a doubt superior to the Eurofighter consortium.

This reminds me of the 70s when we considered the F-14 Tomcat too expensive to acquire for the UK, and so the Tornado was created as a cheaper alternative.


WHAT?!?!

The F-35 is a poor relation of the F-22 (ironic, as at this rate it will be more expensive soon!). For defending airspace, the EFT is better than the F-35. For A2G the F-35 may have an advantage by its lower RCS, but I'm not convinced that that advantage is significant.


As for Tomcat/Tornado...


1. TSR2 made.
2. Cancelled in favour of F-111
3. F-111 crap
4. Tornado designed and built in favour of F-111.



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 04:37 AM
link   
Well national pride does tend to maintain an independent sense of self sufficiency at times!

And thats why I would always advocate a local make over foreign purchases.
Unless there are drastic differences in capabilities..



posted on Nov, 28 2007 @ 04:42 AM
link   
In 1991 the RAF had spent years training for the role of ultra low level strike in a European war - the cold war was slowly sliding away , but that doesn`t change the fact that these crews had spent most of the training life below 500 feet - many below 200 feet and mach 1;

skip forward 12 years , thats 12 years of training and a chan ge in doctrine - aircrews have trained differently - sure they blast along at weedtop height - but now spend more time above angels base + 30.





is that what you meant about Rafale



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 12:12 AM
link   

Originally posted by kilcoo316
The F-35 is a poor relation of the F-22


Aside from the fact they are both Lockheed designs, and therefore come from the same industrial and technological base.



posted on Nov, 29 2007 @ 12:47 AM
link   
They are both cool planes.....


So get both?




posted on Nov, 30 2007 @ 07:47 AM
link   
There's 2 roles to be filled

The Strike role, the UK tactic for this has always been to sneak in and avoid any a2a combat. Which fits the F35 perfectly, The Typhoon would be used only once the F35 had destoyed any integrated air defence.

The a2a role, which for the UK see as a defence role which means you need to get enough missles in the air which suits the Typhoon.

So I get the F35C for both the navy and RAF as it seems to be better than F35B, longer range and higher payload since we will have large enough carriers to fly it off and the RAF will still be able to fly it's planes of the carriers.

I would use the Saudi order to delay the purchase of some of the T3 to spread the cost, since some of these aircraft will be for lose replacement anyway. I then found the following I hope it just for delaying the cost and not part of a cancellation.


The Saudi defense ministry announced the order in a statement on the official Saudi Press Agency Web site. The U.K. Ministry of Defence said the first 24 planes will come from an existing U.K. contract for 232 aircraft.

www.bloomberg.com...



posted on Dec, 1 2007 @ 03:47 AM
link   
The RAF agreed to divert some of its planned deliveries to the RSAF so that the Saudis could be enticed with early delivery and they said at the same time that they would then take delivery of the later airframes that the Saudi's would otherwise have been waiting for, there is no reduction in the RAF order (at least not yet).

Also the current RAF contract is not for 232 aircraft, that is the total number of aircraft that the UK requires, it is the T3 order that would take us up to 232, to press we have only signed contracts up to the end of the T2 phase.

[edit on 1-12-2007 by waynos]



posted on Dec, 1 2007 @ 05:20 PM
link   
This is, as you rightly say, Waynos, an incredibly tough decision.

I also agree with The Winged Wombat in that it would be absolutely stupid for Britain to cancel any significant number of Typhoons - the ability to design, develop, produce and maintain our own aircraft in the long term (even if they aren't up to speed with the latest American model, they certainly aren't bad planes) is worth far more than getting some extra F-35s in the short term. Ideally we'd find a bit of extra cash from somewhere to ensure that both the Royal Navy and the Royal Air Force got the number and types of planes that they both needed (The ID Card scheme looks like a fitting candidate for the chop. There's £5.5billion for a start).

I think that the best course would probably be to give the RAF the Eurofighters it has ordered (which looks more likely now that the Saudis have signed the order to buy 72 of them, and other nations have expressed an interest), scrap the F-35B purchase and go for the C variant instead (if necessary cutting the numbers down) and upgrading HMS Queen Elizabeth to be able to cope with it from the day it's launched, rather than doing so 'in due course'.

This should be ample for any conflicts that the UK is involved in on its own (Falklands-scale wars) in the next couple of decades or more. The UK mainland is pretty safe because of NATO and Trident - suitable deterrents for any of the world's powers for now. And, in my opinion, the MoD should already be planning its next move with regards to aircraft design so that we're in a situation that isn't quite as difficult the next time it comes to replacing our combat aircraft.



posted on Dec, 1 2007 @ 10:45 PM
link   
-Flash Flood!

Because its really annoying, and out of the middle of F***ing nowhere.

,.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 09:02 AM
link   
navy-matters.beedall.com...

This make for an interesting read on the whole issue, 2 long pages.



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 09:54 AM
link   
holy s**t

sorry for swearing but as it stand the F35B cannot be operated by the present UK carriers

navy-matters.beedall.com...

ski jump assisted take off requires 561feet

the Invincible class carrier has a deck of under 550feet in length including ski jump!

whats the bring back weight ofthe GR9 or FA-2?


edit:

apparantly the UK is supposed to recieve its first F35`s in 2011 - which won`t be A2A capable.

LM want all partners firm orders NOW , whilst ALL foreign partners are at present sitting on there hands till next year - allready in 18 months the per unit cost has risen to $115 from $90 million in responce to the usa planning on not ordering as many as first projected; foreign orders would amount to nearly a third of the production run - so if anyone starts to drop out , then the per unit cost rockets and more leave.

yet its a win win situation for the US - `give us money for a spot on deliveries` - but as Winged Wombat says on the F35 design trouble thread - if the US cancels it they laughing cause they got billions for nothing - and if `partner` countries back out the lose as well.

im reading that , the F35 is turning into a poor version of the harrier - sure its supersonic , but as a bomb truck? the AV-8B can do the same allready.


but lets `weight` (sic) and see



oh and the UK can`t back out of Tranche 3 commitment - they would have to pay penatlies of over $2 billion if they did - so that won`t happen.

prove the Typhoon can bomb and there is a serious option to cancel F35; just think, what if all the billions spent on the F35 sofar had been plowed into Sea Typhoon - it would be a viable project with all that money thrown away.

[edit on 7/12/07 by Harlequin]



posted on Dec, 7 2007 @ 05:22 PM
link   


prove the Typhoon can bomb and there is a serious option to cancel F35;


already done


Note also that 11 Sqn aircraft used is already equipped with PIRATE, despite what another member posted about none yet being available.

2nd note, I notice too that the aircraft is coded 'DX-I'. Since when did the RAF revert to WW2 squadron codes?

Typhoon hits the spot in laser bomb drop

[edit on 7-12-2007 by waynos]

[edit on 7-12-2007 by waynos]



posted on Dec, 11 2007 @ 08:36 AM
link   
Hi guys,

I don't post much (too busy mixing work with reading others posts) so I'm happy to be corrected on anything.

As I understand, Typhoon can't do carriers, so 100% dependence on them is out of the window.

What I was wondering is, given that BAE Systems own a significant stake of Saab AB, is the Gripen a carrier capable option?
That would give the UK a much better grip on production, technology availability, and a significant cost saving. Granted that if the JSF ever works it would potentially be a better aircraft, but delivery dates and capability dates seem to be a long way off. Shove the EJ200 in it for good measure too.

Is this a viable option?



posted on Dec, 11 2007 @ 09:29 AM
link   
www.abovetopsecret.com...

As per first link.

I would look at the YAK-141 or proposed YAK-38
for the carriers and more eurofighters

no difference as the jsf version is the same as the YAK concept



posted on Jan, 1 2008 @ 11:26 PM
link   
I used to live on RAF shawbury which is an english air force base and for the airshow at cosford. And the year before i left for new zealand we hosted a Eurofighter. The plane was amazing and because we hosted it for our airshow it was the headliner. The military capabilities are amazing but with the large orders it will take at least 5 years to fill half of them so if the uk slash the orders for the lightning then it might benifit them of getting their pilots used to handling etc. However personally i think it would be a major mistake for the RAF to slash the orders as the eurofighter would benefit them in the long run.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1   >>

log in

join