Tasers a form of torture, says UN, page 2
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 3 times


reply posted on 25-11-2007 @ 06:56 AM by gottago
Originally posted by ChrisF231
Am I the only one that dug deeper into this and discovered that the majority of those who died after being tazed either had some sort of underlying medical condition or were under the influence of drugs (like cocaine, meth, etc)?

Snorting coke + being tased = heart stops so gee no wonder they died.

Also, how do we expect the officer/deputy/trooper/agent to know who has what condition, whos been snorting, etc?

Quite frankly, the Taser is a much better option then the Glock 17. At least with a Taser I know theres not a 100% chance of death with a chest or head shot.


So you're saying that being drunk or high or even having a heart problem is just tough cookies if you're tasered by some incompetent cop for speeding or whatever and you happen to drop dead from it?

And by extension, you should be glad you only got the taser instead of a bullet from a Glock? Don't you think there's a middle ground somewhere?

ATS could have a taser board, there are so many posts here about its abuse.

And it is abused, far too often, by incompetent, maladjusted cops who don't know how to handle rather mundane situations--recalcitrant grandmothers, guys with their pregnant wives in tow disputing speeding tickets, etc, etc. Loser cops who otherwise would be forced to learn how to properly deal with these situations, not simply to pull out a taser and zap 'em to the ground.



reply posted on 25-11-2007 @ 10:55 AM by TheRedneck
Johnsky stole my opening line...
Wow, that's.... shocking.


Let's look at the evolution of police weaponry... once there were guns. But guns killed people. So we started making sure that cops couldn't use their guns, because too many bad people got dead.

This kept the bad people from getting dead, but the cops starting getting dead because the crooks still used guns. That was unacceptable as well.

Then we developed tazers... they don't get many people dead. Of course, they're not supposed to get any people dead, and that's the problem. Police can use them without worrying about it, and so they do! What a shock.

Tazers are not completely safe, though. Any time you pump electricity through the human body (which operates on electro-chemical reactions) to the tune of 50KV, you're taking a chance that there will be some unexpected results, ranging from death to almost no effect (some people aren't affected by a tazer enough to even stop them). It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. Apparently we do have rocket scientists teaching rookies at the academies now, because they are teaching 'tazer first, ask questions later'.

Now I don't have a lot of sympathy for the drug dealer (excuse me, 'undocumented pharmacist' ) that gets stopped by the cops. He caused the immediate problem by breaking the law in the first place. But the problem is exascerbated by the fact that the cop thinks he can taze anyone who doesn't jump fast enough without any potential problems. And we're not talking about just drug dealers here... I remember two news stories in the last couple of years, one where a college demonstrator was tazed repeatedly until he died, all the time with the tazering policemen screaming 'get up' at him. Of course he couldn't get up... he was paralyzed by the electric jolt! Another time a college student asked a cop for his name and badge number because she felt he was abusing his authority. The girl was told 'get away or I'll taze you'. Cops do not just face drug dealers and murderers. They face us all, at some time or another, and they never know who they are coming into contact with until after they come in contact with them. Scary job.

I think tazers are a good thing that has gone way too far and is now a bad thing. Sure, it's usually better than the Smith and Wesson maneuver, but it can also kill, and anyoe who thinks different should try grabbing an electric fence sometime (approximately the same thing). At least with the S&W method, the cops used force as a last resort. Leave it to idiot beuurocrats to screw up what could have been a great alternative to the gun. Remember, dead is dead, regardless of whether it was by bullet, live wire, or being hit with a rock.

Now if I can get my head around the concept of the UN sayong something that's almost intelligent...

TheRedneck


reply posted on 25-11-2007 @ 11:04 AM by TheRedneck
reply to post by jerico65


Being tazed sure does beat getting a bullet in the ass.


I dunno about that... if you're an undocumented pharmacist trying to smuggle 800 pounds of marijuana into the country, getting a 'bullet in the ass' comes with a lot of perks.

OK, off-topic, sorry... I just couldn't resist...

TheRedneck


reply posted on 25-11-2007 @ 04:45 PM by The Vagabond
This is both to answer the question on pepper-ball guns and address the all or nothing mentality that some members are showing on this subject.

First and foremost, all violence is inhumane. The root of this question is not whether or not TASERs are a good thing, or whether or not the UN has the authority to say what is good and bad, etc.
Violence is bad. I think we can all agree that if God comes down from the coulds and says "peace or violence" we should all say "peace" in one voice.

Short of God doing that, there will be violence. Consequently the root of this question is whether or not we wish to have a society. A society by its very nature entails the sacrifice of some of our natural absolute freedom, which some would use to violently tyranize their neighbors, for certain assurances of safety. This safety is preserved by entrusting government agents with the means to use force. In short, do we want to have cops or not?

I say yes, as did our founding fathers. As our founding fathers did, however, I say this with the proviso that new safeguards must be provided against misconduct by those who would be guardians of our society. I do not claim to know what all of these safeguards would be, but I do know that the principles that would govern them are already partially existant, that they would not completely do away with everything we now have, and that those safeguards must include strict accountability.

I also know that those safeguards will not make a perfect world, and I am OK with that, because there is a delicate balance between absolute freedom and safety. Some safety can be sacrificed and some cannot. Some rights can be foregone and some cannot. (I will give up the right to swing my arms near your nose, but not the right to swing my arms at all. I will not allow you to swing your arms near my nose, but I will accept a little risk from you swinging your arms elsewhere).

On the pepperball gun and other weapons:
The Pepperball gun does solve some of the problems presented by the TASER, so it's a pretty good option, but no non-lethal weapon at present is perfect.

The pepperball gun is a gun, and if you aim it wrong it cause permanent injury, so doesn't have quite the same illusion of harmlessness as a TASER.
I haven't got the stats in front of me but it seems reasonable that it is probably less likely to kill than a TASER when properly employed.
But it's also not quite as effective as the TASER. I've seen guys have to be shot in the genitals with that thing before they'd comply.

The TASER is one of the most effective non-lethal weapons available- far more effective than a club, hand to hand techniques, or even the pepper-ball gun.
As a direct result of that extra power though, the TASER is also more dangerous than those techniques. (although none of them is completely safe. If somebody has a condition, you could put them into shock with a baton or a grapling technique.)

There is what law enforcement calls a "force continuum". On the low end, you've got grabbing someone's wrist, turning them around, and cuffing them because they won't comply with lawful instruction. On the high end, you've shooting to kill before a hostage taker can kill his victim. Between those extremes, there is a progression through low-impact holds, pepper spray, hand and baton strikes, and things such as pepperball guns and tasers. There are times when any of these things may be necessary, but far more often they are not necessary and must not be employed.


reply posted on 25-11-2007 @ 05:13 PM by The Vagabond
reply to post by Solarskye



I strongly disagree. The UN needs a major overhaul, but not to be destroyed.
If your district attorney failed to do his job 90% of the time, would you want a better DA, or would you want to get rid of him and let the other 10% of criminals go unprosecuted as well?

I also disagree that it should be hand to hand or shooting for cops. Suppose that some guy, 6'4" and 300 pounds, walks up to you right in front of a cop, knocks you on your butt, and takes your wallet, then walks away. No cop in his right mind is gonna tangle with that guy unarmed, and you can't possibly believe that cops should be allowed to kill people in the streets for property crimes, do you?

Doesn't it make perfect sense in that situation for the cop to have a device that can make that big son of a gun's muscles useless and put him on the ground without killing him, so that you can get your wallet back and see that guy dealt with appropriately by our justice system? In a situation like that TASERs are a good thing. It's not black and white. It's situational.
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