Labor claims Australia poll win

Originally posted by primal
And if owning a home is a pipe dream for ya then may be you need to work a little harder cause nobody's goin to hand it to you, which is the real problem in Australia that so many expect so much for doing so little. That's WTF I,m talking about.

Agreed to many people want things handed to them by the government. Why should people who work harder and take the risks (entrepreneurs) to be successful and then be penalised because half the population is too lazy to get off their ass and better themsleves.
I can see half the people who voted for Labor did so because they are hoping for a free ride at the expense of my tax dollars.

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
Australians DO understand that we may be needed in Afghanistan at the moment but Terrorist threats in OUR IMMEDIATE REGION are more important and urgent.

What threat does the Afghan Army pose to invading Australia? NONE! We should not be there. WE ARE NOT NEEDED IN AFGHANISTAN. But, like a good boy, Rudd will allow our troops to remain there, so the opium and oil supply will continue to flow funds into US black projects.

We're not needed there and we should not be there. We should IMMEDIATELY pull the troops out and bring them home. Kevin Rudd, every hour that you permit our troops to invade Afghanistan and Iraq, you gain more blood on your hands. Their armies do not pose any military threat to Australia. We should not be there. It's hard to personally blame you though, as I know you take your orders from above.

(As soon as Howard started screwing with the average person's job security - he was a goner. You can't threaten a person's income security and expect to get away with it. Screw WorkChoices. Screw Howard. Screw Rudd too, he won't be any better and we'll still be nailed to the wall under invasive policies written by mad-men who are bent on destruction.)

Alexander Downer knew all along they wouldnt win, this adds weight to my previous argument that they didnt want to win this time round. It was almost a kamakazi mission

www.abc.net.au...


Quote taken from above article(I am bad with tags sorry mods)


"ALEXANDER DOWNER: Well, I think it was sensible for the Prime Minister to look at our situation.

Look, to be honest with you, I'll tell you one thing retrospectively, my view through this year was that it didn't look to me as though we were going to win the election. I didn't of course say that publicly and you wouldn't have expected me to. It would be suicidal to do that sort of thing, but as the year wore on there wasn't a very positive public response to a range of different initiatives, for example the $10 billion Murray Darling initiative was very well supported by the public, was a wonderful thing to do, something I've wanted to see happen all my adult life.

But it didn't shift the opinion polls. When we brought down a very popular budget in May, yes, popular with the public in terms of the initiatives, didn't shift the opinion polls.

And when we intervened in the Northern Territory in the Indigenous communities there again, the actual initiative was very popular with the public but it didn't shift the opinion polls.

I must tell you that throughout the year I have had a fairly gloomy view of our prospects. So inevitably in those circumstances, a lot of us talked about it and what we could do to try and impervious our situation, so I do think that's wise?

I think that was very wise, but who knows what a better solution could be. History just doesn't record that."


end of quote.........




They had the time, money, resources and nouce to turn things around but they didnt........Why?

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by Melbourne_Militia
Australians DO understand that we may be needed in Afghanistan at the moment but Terrorist threats in OUR IMMEDIATE REGION are more important and urgent.

What threat does the Afghan Army pose to invading Australia? NONE! We should not be there. WE ARE NOT NEEDED IN AFGHANISTAN. But, like a good boy, Rudd will allow our troops to remain there, so the opium and oil supply will continue to flow funds into US black projects.

DUH, we are supporting the Afghan Army and helping them to rid the country of the Taliban. The Afghani President himslef requested our help. You obvioulsy don't understand Afghanistan, terrorism or the Taliban. I suggest you educate yourself, then again I guess you can blaim your dismal education on the Liberal Government, lol.

(As soon as Howard started screwing with the average person's job security - he was a goner. You can't threaten a person's income security and expect to get away with it. Screw WorkChoices. Screw Howard. Screw Rudd too, he won't be any better and we'll still be nailed to the wall under invasive policies written by mad-men who are bent on destruction.)

Why don't you work harder instaed o whinging that it is everyone elses fault. People like you are just plain lazy expecting the country somehow owes you a living. You just bring us all down.

Originally posted by mad scientist
Why don't you work harder instaed o whinging that it is everyone elses fault. People like you are just plain lazy expecting the country somehow owes you a living. You just bring us all down.

Considering that you don't know me, your remark could be construed as being ignorant and a personal attack against me.

I don't expect the country to owe me anything. I don't want to be governed by any of them. Governments are evil, they start and continue wars. They repress the majority for the profit of the minority.

Alright folks...

Let's attack the Topic, not each other!

Thanks for your cooperation.

Originally posted by tezzajw
I don't expect the country to owe me anything. I don't want to be governed by any of them. Governments are evil, they start and continue wars. They repress the majority for the profit of the minority.

Do you actually believe that? If you dont think the government owes you anything, why don't you move to another country without a social securty system, HECS, Medicare, etc... the list goes on. Lets see how much you would enjoy it.
Wars can be a good thing, Companies that support defence, through R & D, support, ammunition, etc. employ alot of people throughout the world, it also keeps defence members highly trained, and proficient in protecting their country. They repress the majority, not true it is the majority that represses themselves, there are no laws that say, you cant go out and become part of the 'so called' minority. Get a bit of ticker and get out there. The minority became the minority through their own personal initiative.

Originally posted by RAAFY
Wars can be a good thing, Companies that support defence, through R & D, support, ammunition, etc. employ alot of people throughout the world...

That single statement represents everything that is wrong with today's world.

Thanks for making it. However, I'm stunned to think that people believe it to be true, as you have shown.

Life, which you so nobly serve, comes from destruction, disorder and chaos. Take this empty glass. Here it is, peaceful, serene and boring. But if it is... [pushes glass off table] destroyed... [robot cleaners move to clean broken glass]
Look at all these little things. So busy now. Notice how each one is useful. What a lovely ballet ensues so full of form and color. Now, think about all those people that created them. Technicians, engineers, hundreds of people who'll be able to feed their children tonight so those children can grow up big and strong and have little teeny weeny children of their own, and so on and so forth. Thus, adding to the great chain... of life.

You see, Father, by creating a little destruction, I'm actually encouraging life. In reality, you and I are in the same business. Cheers.

-Jean-Baptiste Emanuel Zorg (The Fifth Element)

This is the philosophy of the war pigs, don't ever forget it.

[edit on 25-11-2007 by Shar_Chi]

hmm it is getting rather heated in here.

I think everyone needs to understand that politics is a situational issue. Each person will have a valid perspective due to the situation they are in. The person claiming wars benefit obviously works in Defense. The person who is anti war perhaps works in repatriation, family and community services or is affected in a personal way by it.

The main limitation to any Government is collective policies. Collective policies attempt to cater for the collective, unfortunately, it is not perfect, it does not and can not address or base a system on the individual. There will always exist a minority who feel the system or Government is screwing them. Good. Perhaps one day, the minority will become the majority and bring about the changes they desire.

The majority wins in a representative and responsible democracy. Is it unjust that a percentage of an electorate is not represented?

No, it isn't.

The only concern I have with Government is where the Government (who we have elected to represent us) deals with issues that we are not informed of.

For eg: Mr Ruddock threatened not to allow the UN into Australia if the UN did not 'mind its own business'. Mr Ruddock did not speak on behalf of me as at that time, I did not know about it. And yet, the speech he made to the UN stated he was speaking on behalf of the Australian People.

also defended a decision not to allow members of the UN's Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (CERD) to visit Australia last yearsource

What happens to the representatives once they are in power? Can they be trusted to represent us? Are they making decisions for us about issues we don't know about? Yes, they are.

On a practical level, it is impossible for the public to be informed of every decision that arises. But, important issues, the public need to be informed of. Unfortunately, the media distracts us with popular reality programs and celebrity hype. We are not kept informed and so, Government continue to operate once elected as they see fit.

In the past, many laws have been pushed through the Senate that affect us and that we do not learn of until they have been enacted. Even if we on the ground have concerns regarding a proposed bill, it is up to our representative to hopefully have the same and raise it.

It is once the laws are enacted that people then cry fowl. It is little too late. How many laws do you hear of being repealed? The Australian Anti-Terrorism Act 2005 now revised infringes upon individual rights. We have witnessed various injustices to individuals because of this legislation: Haneef is just one example.

If I remember correctly, nobody wanted the GST...and yet, we have it. How is it possible?

The AWAs were not welcome and yet, they are now part of the Australian workplace system. I had the unfortunate pleasure of implementing an AWA for a workplace. It was imo, unfair.

Even with AWA regulation, it is still haphazard. I witnessed Employees signing agreements that not only reduced their hourly rate, they lost penalty rates while the Director of the Company drove his brand new Jag. And yes, that Director was a Liberal Party Member.

I get the feeling that by all accounts most people voted against Howard due to a few unpopular policies on a few key issues... mainly industrial relations...

But that otherwise he would still be in office.

Even Iraq as unpopular as it is.... PLUS our more than cozzy relationship with US foreign policy as unpopular as that is in some quarters PLUS our poor environmental record and PLUS our shoody treatment of refugees :
I.E. Even the combination of all these factors would not have been enough to depose Howard....

People may complain about these things but in reality most are content for the refugee problem to go away, trust that our ecconomy is strong even if we do have to rape the land to achieve it and the military co-operation with the US well most wouldnt get too upset about it...

The deal breaker was that people felt they were loosing their grip on their job security.... and interest rates didnt help either....

But having said all that a change is as good as a holiday.....
Hopefully fresh blood ("the metaphorical type not the literal type ") will improve things for the common man.

Lets hope that New Labour does not end up in the same position as the old labour did with massive foreign debts and interest rates at 16% or some such rubbish.....

I dont want to digress to far form the topic,

War is a mix of good and bad, bad obviously for the people killed, but good in a range of other ways, it is like most things in life.

War creates Jobs, therefore people can provide for their family, etc.
for example, the Air Warfare Destroyer, SEA 4000 program is creating over 2000 jobs for the economy, thats another 2000 people in work.

But a loss, for a gain, although no very humane, I think is acceptable. I would quite happily die for my country. That my opinion.

But this also happens in alot of other situations, ie.
Traveston Dam

Obviously this doesnt compare to the Loss of Life as in Iraq, but the State Labor Government decided that a few families loosing there family properties was more than acceptable for the good of QLD.

There are always going to be people that think that what the government does is wrong, its just how it is. But I would like to see them step up and give it a go.

And just to clear it up, I dont think war is really good, but it is acceptable if some good can come out of it, (ie terrorist networks not having a safe haven, democracy, etc.)

Take it easy

RAAFY

reply to post by Shar_Chi


In defence of myself I feel that your rant went a little over the top. I apolagise for using 'we'. I voted for Labor... I was simply trying to suggest that while I disagree with John Howards actions and policies, I am not going to give him the satisfaction of some huge rant about how crappy he is. I cant help but feel a little offended by your choice of words, so what I said 'we'? I suggest you re-read my post again and attempt to see what I actually meant rather than abusing my choice of words. It seems to me that you only read the we part, for you seemed to miss out on some other important comments that I made.

[edit on 26/11/07 by gogosam]

Originally posted by RAAFY
War is a mix of good and bad, bad obviously for the people killed, but good in a range of other ways, it is like most things in life.

War creates Jobs, therefore people can provide for their family, etc.
for example, the Air Warfare Destroyer, SEA 4000 program is creating over 2000 jobs for the economy, thats another 2000 people in work.

Your opinion is sickening, RAAFY.

Here'a a few ways to create 2000 plus jobs, using essentially the same components and resources:

1) Build desalination plants.
2) Build rockets and launch facilities for the peaceful exploration of space and the mining of nearby celestial bodies.
3) Build more hospitals and train more doctors.
4) Buid better schools (not more of the same control institutions) and retrain teachers.
5) Build more firefighting helicopters, instead of F111s. I've yet to see how a single F111 has helped Australia, especially when we always need to fly in the US firefighting helicopters every bushfire season.
6) Improve all road/rail networks to operate as economically and environmentally friendly as possible.
7) Design and distribute clean, cheap energy to end oil dependence.

If you want to employ people for war, that's your sick choice.

reply to post by tezzajw


Then we can enjoy rebuilding when we get taken out, or better yet become another indonesian island, that would be excellent wouldn't it...I'm pretty sure that China wouldnt mind a new bit of dirt, it gets a bit smoggy up in Shanghai.

My point is that John Howard did an excellent Job in securing Australia, I am eagerly awaiting any changes that Kevin Rudd is going to implement.

Please go back to your existence were the security of the nation is none of your concern, were we don't need a defence force and were taking out the taliban was a bad idea.

take it easy

RAAFY

Originally posted by tezzajw
Your opinion is sickening, RAAFY.

I agree that most people will not see my opinion very favorably, but the way you are thinking is very Naïve and very short sited. The whole picture needs to be looked at, not just the nice picture, and the stuff that puts a smile on your face when you got to sleep at night

take it easy

RAAFY

In regards to the previous several comments that involved comparisons of interest rates now of, wher are they currently, bout 8% variable and the 17% of the early 1990's, what the difference is between then and now is that even thou the current interest rate may be lower, the bottom line is that the cost of living is far higher now than it was in comparison in the early 1990's all factors being equal.

Heres another way of trying to understand it......you need to work alot longer to be able to afford the price of food, fuel, clothes etc compared to the early 1990's. Thats where the difference is, the average middle and lower class worker back then had more dispoable income at the end of the week to service their mortgage and bills and living expenses than they do now.

That is not considering the percentage of people who Choose to have a high mortgage and huge property, thats there choice and they now because of it they are now suffering. Im refering to the average person with the average mortgage.

Lets not forget, as many people during the election campaign have been quick to crucify 'old-labour' for their 17% interest rates, but when Johnny Howard was the treasurer back in 1982, interest rates actually got to 22% !!!!!!!!!!

The government in power back in that day, had to subsidise the interest rate to make it somewhat achievable of repaying your mortgage.

Lets, all just accept the election result and watch carefully as Im sure many will, and give the bloke a chance to get his staff and party in order. Lets comment on his performance atleast after a year and see what he has achieved if anything.

My guess would be that RAAFY comes from a military background, and that therefore his bias lay within protecting the country. I dont agree that we should be in the current war... I believe that war is a mechanism that should be employed only in the most dire circumstances, especially not over oil... but I do agree that the military forces do contribute a great deal to society in terms of employment. I also agree that without our military many people would feel very vulnerable, considering our geographic positioning...

reply to post by gogosam


You are correct in saying I come from a military background gogosam, and as a result I admit I am extremely biased toward the military. Obviously I am not trying to hide that fact, but I would say that most sane people would rather have a secure country, with say mediocre interest rates, enhanced industrial relation laws (just putting it out that with the days of dire recruitment for the ADF, there are now personal contracts for some defence jobs, its not just civilian employment with AWA's) pretty good education systems, average health systems, etc... Than have excellent Interest Rates, IR laws, education, etc... just to be invaded and have it all taken away. Because if you think Australia would be immune to invasion/attack you are extremely incorrect (not saying you are gogosam, talking in general). Australia is a nice bit of earth with not that many people...just as an example, indonesia is a touch overcrowded, as is china, and a swarm of other countries.

On another point, I am hoping that Kevin Rudd does an awesome job, I believe he has huge shoes to fill, but being a QLDer he may have what he needs to do it (lol)...With the Labor party being elected, I am mourning the loss of Peter Costello (although I dont think he would make a particularly good PM) he was a brilliant Treasurer (almost exactly opposite to John Howard). I am scared of Wayne Swan, I dont think he has what is needed to run our economy.

As for the new leader of the opposition, I would like to see Dr Brendan Nelson elected at caucus. (Yes he was the ex Defence Minister, but he is the only one I trust, Mr Turnbull and Mr Abbott seem a bit dodgy for lack of a better word, 'its almost midnight'). I have had the pleasure of meeting him a couple of times and he comes accross as a genuine person.

anyway thats me,

take it easy

RAAFY

I'm someone who normally votes Liberal and SHOULD vote Liberal (I'm a white collar worker), but this time around I voted Labor (in the lower house). I did this mainly because I thought the Liberals were becoming a little too conservative and didn't like the direction they were taking this country. The main factors were:

Brendan Nelson (Defence Minister): Decided to spend $6 Billion on the Super Hornet without consulting the airforce. Interestingly Andrew Peacock was the representative for Boeing in Australia.

Kevin Andrews (Minister for Immigration): The Mohammed Haneef case really showed his stupidity and incompetence.

Tony Abbot (Health Minister): The guy is way too conservative, I think he's actually a preist, he's way too biased on medical issues such as banning abortion drugs and stem cell reaserch etc.

Alexander Downer (Foreign Affairs Minister): Has been a little too arrogant with the way he treats our asian neighbours, ie Indonesia, Fiji.

I think that Rudd would be a much better ambassador to China (they're taking over the world, better start sucking up to them) and also the US, assuming that maybe Hillary wins office.

I also like that he has a vision for the future, and what we should do after the mining boom stops. Unlike Howard who basically took it from election year to election year.

However, I don't want Labor to abolish the AWA's, yeah they need some fine tuning but I think IR reforms are needed. I'm also not that fazed about Kyoto, what a useless treaty. It's not like Australia is a big polluter anyway, whatever pollution we cut down on will only be replaced by pollution from China.

P.S.

Housing prices have gone up so much because of the state governments and local councils imcompetence and corruption. They're the ones responsible for releasing/rezoning land, but they haven't released nearly enough. The main reason for this is because a lot of the people in government have investment properties or represent those with investment properties. So by slowing down the supply of land they increase the value of their properties.

Interest rates have also gone up because of the growth in the Australian economy (mainly mining boom), tax cuts from the government have only exacerbated the problem. The reserve bank (being independent, which is a good thing) was forced to increase the cash rate because of this. I only hope that under Labor workers salaries won't increase too much, this will make interest rates even higher.

[edit on 27-11-2007 by Cthulwho]