Heinrich Himmler: Dead or alive, Suicide or Murder?

A couple of threads have discussed whether Hitler survived the war despite there being much evidence to confirm his death - in one form or another. The recent releases from the Soviet archive have, for the most part, laid any mystery completely to rest, however the same cannot be said for Himmler.

The following, are in my opinion the most interesting and plausible examinations of Himmler in recent years, both authors have researched the topic thoroughly and have sought to present fresh evidence to support their positions. Both question the accepted version of events.

Hugh Thomas' 2001 book The Unlikely Death of Heinrich Himmler presents circumstantial and corroborative evidence that suggests that the man that died in British custody was not Himmler but a convincing double. Thomas presents a good case supported in no small part by the information that both Kim Philby and Anthony Blunt were covertly involved in later investigations to confirm Himmler's death.

A second theory is presented in Himmler's Secret War by Martin Allen (2005). Allen citeS a number of documents he discovered in the British Archives that clearly indicate the British intention to 'get rid' of Himmler. However within weeks of publication SOME of the documents that Allen found were identified as forgeries and pressure was applied by the media and others to withdraw the book.

www.telegraph.co.uk.../news/2005/08/01/nhimm01.xml

Quite rightly, Allen refused to do this. As he points out the documents, if forged, had somehow found there way to Kew and it was essential to establish how this could have happened as it threatened the integrity of the National Archive. No satisfactory explanation has been forthcoming, so the book, thank fully, remains in print. Of the many documents that Allen accessed for the book, only five were claimed to be forged.

We are still left with many unanswered questions though. Most importantly:

If it was not Himmler who was captured by the British what happened to him? Did he survive the war?

The file held by the British SIS on Himmler's death is sealed until 2045. Very few files from the second world war were designated under the 100 year rule which gives us some indication as to the depth of the secrets that had to be maintained. In all likelihood, by the time the file is released, its entire contents will have disappeared.

I suspect, as I am sure Allen does himself, that he was set up. Either the documents are real and the claims of forgery false, or if the documents are forged they must have been planted for Allen to find in order that they could be used to discredit him later. Both possibilities are as likely as the other.

As a conspiracy this has many angles and intrigues, I hope a few ATSers will find time to give it a ponder and add their thoughts. What is clearto me is that the British consider the subject of Himmler and his death, over sixty years later, to be a matter of secrecy. If there is no fire, why all the smoke???

While it is disappointing to have a thread crash and burn, I'm also a little bit angry and I will (whether anyone cares to read or not - its cathartic) explain why. I chose to put this thread on the Disinfo and Deflection board for a good reason (- one that has most adequately been demonstrated by the overall lack of interest).

I certainly do not blame anyone for not sharing my interest in Himmler's 'death' - par for the course - I do however blame all those who would rather believe that the conspiracy is elsewhere. That the jews lied, that they profited from the deaths of their own people (and supposedly continue to do so) etc etc ETC. The numbers make absolutely no jolt of difference - not even a smidgeon - and all of you who fall for it are the victims of Disinfo and Deflection. You're being tricked.

Hitler, does have much in common with Bush, they were/are both puppets/patsies. They only have the power that their makers give them, enough to keep them occupied and out of mischief. Himmler was a climber who systematically took control of the Reich, often with Hitler's blessing, just as often without. More importantly, Himmler knew how to make himself indispensible to his very powerful backers.

By the close of the war Himmler had complete control of Germany and was involved in top level negotiations with the Allies. Obviously he had ensured that he had ample bargaining power.

If Himmler escaped, if the body was that of a double, then Himmler's escape must have been assisted by one of the Allied powers (very unlikely Soviets of course). The most prolific mass murderer in history could have got off scot free simply because he had information that people in both the US and Britain needed (and wanted). The British, it is rumoured, even offered him immunity from prosecution

What a wonderful world.

Alive?

Please... He would be 107 years old... Not impossible, but quite unlikely. That is one reason no one is jumping on this, the other is that the treasure trove of Nazi conspiracy is Rudolph Hess.

[edit on 24/11/2007 by Mirthful Me]

reply to post by Mirthful Me


I think it is quite obvious that he would be dead by now - common sense should at lest prevail at times, I feel no need to insult the reader by stating the obvious - I have a tendency to labour points as it is.

Hess is indeed another conspiracy of interest from that era - however Hess didn't orchestrate the most comprehensive programmes of eugenics that the world has ever seen, he didn't act as the go between of the great industrialists of Europe, the US and the UK. He didn't profit from murder. Hess actually tried to prevent that from happening and because of that he suffered a cruel and unusual punishment.

No comparison in my book - scot free for mass murder (plus ample spending money) or solitary confinement for life because he wanted peace and got caught up in a plot to overthrown the British government. Ones a tradegy the other a travesty. You decide.



[edit on 24-11-2007 by KilgoreTrout]

reply to post by KilgoreTrout


There has been many accounts put forward that both Himmler and Hitler were alive after their "faked" deaths, but there are just as many accounts that they died when they said they did, and not any conclusive "proof" to support either arguement. So some things like that have to be mere speculation, however interesting it may be. It shouldn't be any real surprise at all if those guys did negotiate a way out of Germany alive, like so many other nazi's did, and because it would be done with the co-operation of the allies, then the chances of us getting conclusive "proof" one way or the other becomes even more remote.

here is one discussion on Hitler, however don't expect a satisfying conclusion, you will have to decide yourself

www.coverups.com...

apparently in 1952, Dwight D. Eisenhower said: "We
have been unable to unearth one bit of tangible evidence of Hitler's death.
Many people believe that Hitler escaped from Berlin."

When President Truman asked Joseph Stalin at the Potsdam conference in 1945
whether or not Hitler was dead, Stalin replied bluntly, 'No.' Stalin's top
army officer, Marshall Gregory Zhukov, whose troops were the ones to occupy
Berlin, flatly stated after a long thorough investigation in 1945: "We have
found no corpse that could be Hitler's."

I don't really take much interest in whether they lived or not, their imprint on worlds history finished when they supposedly died. We know other nazis went on to work for USA, Britain, Russia, and the hypocrisy of much of the allied actions before, during and after the war, which was all stage-managed by those at the top anyhow

I had heard it said, with great conviction, that Hitler died in the early 1970's in Argentina, but it is some time since I read it. Stalin had accused the British of hiding Hitler.

www.internationalnewsagency.org...

[edit on 17-12-2007 by golddragnet]

I dont know much about Hitler & Co, but I´ll tell you this:

About a year ago I vistited a place called "Obersalzberg" in southern Bavaria. This is where me and a friend of mine learned about all the tunnel-systems and secret hideouts leading through entire mountains built by Hitler. Our thoughts were: "Well, if these guys wanted to hide or escape, that wouldnt be a problem".

From that experience I find it highly unlikely that all the top-brass were caught.

Intriguing. However I think the disappearance of SS General Hans Kammler is even more important. This is the man who was in charge of all SS secret weapons projects. he mysteriously disappeared after the war.

greyfalcon.us...

I can appreciate your consternation that nobody is picking up the thread, but I guess we have to consider that the whole WWII picture is still pretty clouded...from it's roots in the Versailles Treaty to players like Henry Ford and Prescott Bush...just to mention a couple.

The roles of US companies like GM through neutral intermediaries, and the insta-denazification of biggies like Krupp, still can't quite withstand the light of day. So all we're really gonna see is the rah-rah stuff in the hopes that we remain distracted from certain embarassing truths.

So what else is new, eh?

Originally posted by golddragnet
here is one discussion on Hitler, however don't expect a satisfying conclusion, you will have to decide yourself

I am pretty much satisfied that Hitler did in fact die in the Bunker and although Stalin may have made insinuations to the contrary he was simply playing cat and mouse with the US and Britain. He knew that Britain in particular were very worried about Hitler being caught alive and what he may say under interrogation. Apart from the fact that the skull fragments have been verified as Hitler's, the personal testimony of those in the bunker at the time of his death, there is the matter of his state of health. He would not have lived much longer, he was a very sick man as is confirmed by not only Dr Morrells records but also the accounts of Loringhoven et al who were with him almost to the end.

The evidence of whether Himmler died though is hugely contradictary and I am starting to feel inclined that the man who died in British custody was not Heinrich Himmler but a stand in. Unfortuately, only the British SIS can confirm whether this is indeed the case and I doubt very much that they will - ever!

Originally posted by Skyfloating
From that experience I find it highly unlikely that all the top-brass were caught.

I can understand why you may get that impression but we do know that the Nazi leadership with the exception of a very, very few are accounted for. Bormann for example, if he survived, was believed by Reinhard Gehlein to have been in the Soviet Union as he was working as a soy for them throughout much of the war. The only great mysteries still remaining are 'Gestapo' Muller and in my opinion Himmler.

The US Army of course captured Obersalzburg and it would not be too presumptive to believe that had Himmler made his way there he would have fallen into US hands, and we can surmise that this would have been 'by arrangement'. I hadn't thought of this, so although you may not think you know much about the topic your still helping me. Thanks.

Originally posted by mad scientist
Intriguing. However I think the disappearance of SS General Hans Kammler is even more important. This is the man who was in charge of all SS secret weapons projects. he mysteriously disappeared after the war.

greyfalcon.us...

It is most likely, if he did survive, which I think is unlikely, he would have been amongst the Paperclip lot and ended up in the US. He was though only an administrator and would have been of little use to the US scientific programme. It is more likely that he may have escaped via the Vatican Rat lines - but as there have been no sightings I would guess that he either committed suicide or was killed by Allied forces - many were.

Originally posted by JohnnyCanuck
The roles of US companies like GM through neutral intermediaries, and the insta-denazification of biggies like Krupp, still can't quite withstand the light of day. So all we're really gonna see is the rah-rah stuff in the hopes that we remain distracted from certain embarassing truths.

So what else is new, eh?

Do you know that GM actually applied for compensation for the damage caused by allied bombings to their works in Germany? They got it too.

Amazing.

The reason this thread never got going is because, as we are approaching the year 2008, a new generation of conspiracy-theorists dont give a ***** about world war two, much less about a single person involved.
The field has also been overloaded with much confusion and disinformation so that its a lot of WORK to tell what is what and who is who.

Since you seem to be one who has done his research though, I must ask: Where do YOU think Himmler went? East or West? North or South?

We are aware of the scientists having gone east and west. We are aware of rumours surrounding South America.

But what do you sense happened to Himmler?

Originally posted by golddragnet

www.internationalnewsagency.org...

Excellent link GD, (I hadn't realised that Hugh Thomas had also written a book on Hitler's death) - really good concise presentation of the various theories. Thanks for the pointer.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The reason this thread never got going is because, as we are approaching the year 2008, a new generation of conspiracy-theorists dont give a ***** about world war two, much less about a single person involved.

When I first came to this site I was totally amazed to find the quantity of threads relating to holocaust denial. This is really the only reason I got a little miffed at no-one being interested in the thread, that and I was at work and bored

As I have said to you before elsewhere, it is a niche interest and I don't honestly expect others to be as enthused as I am. That said, it is really the last period in history that we have where the corporations, elites and governments left a paper trail and there is much we can learn from patterns of behaviour.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
The field has also been overloaded with much confusion and disinformation so that its a lot of WORK to tell what is what and who is who.

Again, you tend to take your own knowledge for granted and you do not realise that not everyone knows what you know. It wasn't until i came here that I realised the misconceptions and also realised that there were gaps in my knowledge that I was unaware of. Members like Golddragnet really challenged my perception of events and this is why I keep coming back here, I like being challenged.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Since you seem to be one who has done his research though, I must ask: Where do YOU think Himmler went? East or West? North or South?

We are aware of the scientists having gone east and west. We are aware of rumours surrounding South America.

But what do you sense happened to Himmler?

I honestly do not have any fixed opinion on this - I find it hard to believe that someone as infamous as Himmler could have survived without anyone having ever seen him again, but plastic surgery or living in isolation - anything is possible.

East is the most unlikely, if he had been captured by the Red Army he would have been most publicly villified and most likely tortured for the information he held and by now that would have been released as we have seen with much of their WW2 archives.

In my opinion there are only three options - a) he did indeed surrender to the British and either committed suicide or was murdered by the SIS. b) He was given safe haven by the Swedes or c) he surrendered to Allen Dulles (not the US per se).

There is always the possibility that he was aided by the Vatican but I think that this is unlikely unless it was in conjuction with b) and/or c).

Himmler had, via Karl Wolff seen how Dulles would handle such a high ranking SS surrender and he had also seen via Walter Schellenberg how the Swedes would do it. Only Dulles had the means to get Himmler out of Europe without alerting either Soviet or British intelligence. Count Bernadotte who handled Schellenberg's surrender worked very hard to keep him in Sweden but eventually had to bow to pressure from British SIS and Churchill. Wolff had no such problems (until much later). If I was Himmler I would have gone for Dulles. And Dulles of course wanted Himmler's records more than anyone else.

Additionally, he did claim that he had a means for escape where no one would find him. He also repeatedly stated that he would never commit suicide. As much as I like a good mystery, at time you have to realise that you are flogging a dead horse. I can hope that come 2045 there is enough information in the British SIS dossier to reach some sort of conclusion....you never know though which is why I put it up on the board.

Thanks though for showing an interest in my interest

All the best

edit. post removed for expressing myself wrongly.

[edit on 20-12-2007 by Skyfloating]

Question:

Have any claims whatsoever been made by respectable people that they saw Himmler after the war? Anything?

Originally posted by Skyfloating
was hitler funded by the west (before you edited your post)

Kilgore will likely have alot of details on that question for you.

Hitler, and the Bolshevik revolution before him, were partly funded by western money.

To learn more on it, search for info on the 1924 Dawes Plan and the 1929 Young Plan (involving the Rothschild agent JP Morgan). Some of the largest loans of the Dawes Plan went to none other than IG Farben who are briefly mentioned earlier in this thread, it is worth reading up on them, they played a major role in the Third Reich, and they received a loan from Rockefellars National City bank.
IG Farben held a near total monopoly on chemical production during the Nazi regime, including manufacturing Zyklon B, which became notorious as the lethal agent in the gas chambers of the death camps of Auschwitz and Majdanek. The company was also a major user of slave labour.
In 1941, an investigation exposed a "marriage" cartel between United States-based Standard Oil Co. and I.G. Farben.
As a result of the publicised crimes IG Farben was broken up into Agfa, BASF, Bayer, and Hoechst (which later formed Aventis with Rhone Poulenc).

A U.S. War Department investigation revealed that without Farben’s support, “Germany’s prosecution of the war would have been unthinkable and impossible.”

Henry Fords son was involved with IG Farben USA, and Henry Ford was a supporter of Hitler.
reformed-theology.org...
www.bulldognews.net...

General Electric were also involved in the rise of Hitler, also worth looking at General Electrics connections to Roosevelt (CFR member) and the Soviet Union.
reformed-theology.org...

American ambassador to Germany reported in 1936
"At the present moment, more than a hundred American corporations have subsidiaries here or cooperative understandings. The du Ponts have their allies in Germany that are aiding in the armament business. Their chief ally is the I. G. Farben Company, Standard Oil Company sent $2,000,000 here in December, 1933, and has made $500,000 a year helping Germans make Ersatz gas for war purposes; but Standard Oil cannot take any of its earnings out of the country except in goods. The International Harvester Company President told me their business here rose 33% a year but they could take nothing out. Even our airplane people have secret arrangements with Krupps. General Motors Company and Ford do enormous business here through subsidiaries and take no profits out. I mention these facts because they complicate things and add to war dangers."

Germans two largest tank producers were Opel, a subsidiary of General Motors (J. P. Morgan and the du Ponts), and Ford A. G. International Telephone and Telegraph held a substantial interest in Focke-Wolfe who produced German fighter aircraft.

Also look into Hitlers links to the Mendelsohn Bank of Amsterdam (Warburg) and the J. Henry Shroeder Bank. The Chief Legal Counsel for the Shroeder Bank, was the firm of Sullivan and Cromwell, whose senior partners included John Foster Dulles (whose son is Jesuit Cardinal Dulles) and his brother Allen Dulles (who was on the Board of the J. Henry Shroeder Bank, and later became the head of the CIA). Dulles are cousins to the Rockefellers (who also had interest in Farben).
Also look Hitlers connections to Hjalmar Schacht and Wall Street

And of course Thyssen-Harriman of New York, you probably know about already, due to GW Bush's grandfathers connections to them.

[edit on 20-12-2007 by golddragnet]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
If I was Himmler I would have gone for Dulles. And Dulles of course wanted Himmler's records more than anyone else.

Himmler and Dulles had contact on ocassions before the end of the War. Both of them had very strong family-Jesuit Order links, and further to a point you made earlier, the Vatican had alot of influence of all sides during the war.

Jan 1943 Max von Hohenlohe-Langenburg, acting as first emissary of Himmler, met with Dulles. Hohenlohe already knew Dulles personally. They met twice more during the following two months. Hohenlohe later said that Dulles had told him that he preferred dialogs with the SS over those with "deposed politicians, emigrés, and biased Jews." During that time, Dulles also held numerous meetings with Reinhard Spitzy, the SS officer attached to the Foreign Ministry. Himmler's personal attorney Carl Langbehn likewise made contact with Dulles.

The SS leadership's contacts with Dulles are largely shrouded in mystery. Efforts have been made to make it appear as if Dulles had been taking steps to strengthen the resolve of the resistance groupings within Germany. But a closer examination reveals that Dulles clearly preferred to negotiate with the SS—over representatives of the anti-Hitler resistance conspiracy. Dulles's negotiations with SS representatives occurred at precisely the same time as the SS was carrying out the most monstrous phases of its extermination and terror measures and Dulles was aware it. Dulles was also in contact with Hjalmar Schacht who maintained his contacts with the British and American financial oligarchy

The SS became a huge economic empire. It ran a gigantic "labor-lending service" with concentration camp prisoners and forced laborers, all the while enriching itself with the seized assets of persecuted Jews; but the SS empire also had enormous financial and industrial assets at its disposal. This included extensive intersecting stock holdings with private financial and economic interests. Leading bankers and economic managers constituted a veritable "advisory council" for the SS economic empire, in the guise of advisory boards, "circles of friends," and through membership in the Allgemeine SS. This latter practice meant that bankers, economic managers, academics, aristocrats, and other members of Germany's "elite," could hold high-ranking positions in the SS, while still continuing their business activities.

The SS was much more than a police-state institution par excellence. It was an apparatus for oppression and a mass-murder machine and at the same time, it was a huge corporation. As far as the financial circles in the US and Britain were concerned, it was an acceptable partner which one could do business with!!!

Aug, 1944 the SS leaders held a meeting discussing with the top bankers and economic bosses on how to transfer financial assets held by the SS abroad before Nazi Germany collapsed altogether. This could be expected to strike a resonant chord with the financial circles in the US and Britain. The Nazi leadership had never carried out a thorough expropriation of the huge Anglo-American financial and physical assets in Germany and in the occupied territories. That was where Hjalmar Schacht's influence had prevailed. No surprise that the key figure in the mega-transfer of SS assets was Schacht himself. Schacht's mentor for some years was Montagu Norman, who headed the Bank of England.

Yet another key figure in the transfer of SS assets was Swiss Nazi activist François Genoud, who had an extensive contacts in the Arab world. Genoud had been in contact with Allen Dulles since 1943. Large chunks of SS assets were transferred via Switzerland into Spain and Portugal, and from there to Turkey, Sweden, and Argentina, where they were invested.

We can assume that Dulles was well informed about this transfer of SS assets abroad, since it was Dulles who made sure that after the war, Schacht was appointed as the so-called "trustee" of the SS funds.

I am sure that you will know alot more details on this than I, but it may be of interest to other readers

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Question:

Have any claims whatsoever been made by respectable people that they saw Himmler after the war? Anything?

None that I am aware of - respectable or otherwise. This is why I was so taken aback by the very possibility that the man who 'committed suicide' in British custody was not Himmler. If that is the case, and there is reasonable doubt, then Himmler vanished. He would not be alone though - Gestapo Mueller also has never been heard of again (although there have been spurious reports to the contrary), as well as tens of less well known Nazis who successfully evaded capure.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
was hitler funded by the west

Golddragnet has answered this question for you but it may help as he suggested if I give you a bit more detail.

The difficulty is that we should consider that though the US was the source of 70% of all overseas investment in Germany that until late 1941 it was a neutral country and theoretically within its rights to trade with Germany. The same could not be said of UK investors who continued to conduct business with Germany after September 1939.

However while it was legal to trade, it was not considered 'American' to use the opportunity that Germany presented to bypass Anti-Trust, Cartel and monopolies legislation. Nor when the US was struggling to rebuild its own post-depression economy, could it be considered patriotic to direct much needed investments overseas. When it came time to prosecute the Nazis, Robert Jackson pressed vigorously for the charge of Planning and Preparation to Wage Aggressive War to be amongst the indictments. Under this charge many of the industrialists and bankers who had been integral to Hitler's rise were prosecuted. If they were members of the Axis.

The IG Farben Cartel was established in 1925 and encompassed, Badisch Anilin, bayer, AGFA, Hoechst, Weiler-ter-Meer and Griesheim-Elktron. In 1928 the US holdings of IG Farben were organised into a Swiss holding company called IG Chemie (Bayer, General Aniline Works, AGFA Ansco and Winthrop Chemical Company). These firms were then merged the following year and renamed American IG Corporation (later renamed General Aniline and Film when the groups sought to further distance itself in the US publics' minds from Nazi Germany).

Hermann Schmitz was the Chairman of Swiss IG Chemie and President of American IG until 1936 when his brother Dietrich a naturalised US citizen took over. A similar tactic was taken by the Warburg brothers, with Max sitting on the board of IG Farben and his brother Paul on the board of American IG.

In 1929, IG Farben retained the services of Ivy Lee & TJ Ross, who at the time were pioneers in the field of Public Relations and had famously been assigned the task of changing the US perception of John D Rockefeller as the 'most hated man in America.' Lee was paid $25,000 a year by IG, although the initial deposit was paid by IG Farben all subsequent payments were made by American IG. Lee was also paid a further $33,000 a year by Joseph Goebbels to improve his image in the eyes of the American public.

In 1933 IG Farben made a contribution of 400,000 RM to Hitler's campaign fund. At around the same time National City Bank issued IG with an investment bond worth $30,000,000 allowing it to continue its expansion.

As early as 1934 IG Farben began mobilisation for war, drawing up plans that were eventually adopted by the central administration of Germany. In the period of 1935-6 IG were running 'war games' at their major plants. In the preamble to the war, IG acted in direct conjuction with the Wehrmacht and Goerings Four Year plan in researching and developing military chemical technology.

By 1939 the IG Farben cartel had acquired some 380 German concerns and over 500 non-German businesses, and held 2000 cartel agreements with companies such as Standard Oil, Dupont, Alcoa and Dow Chemical.

Standard Oil not only agreed to provide IG with its patents for synthetic rubber (buna) and synthetic oil but it also agreed to suppress and control the manufacture of both these products in the US and abroad, thus gifting the Germans the monopoly. This would be a enormous factor as soon as Britain's trade routes to the East Asian colonys were cut.

Of those who sat on the board of IG Farben (Germany) only Max Warburg escaped prosecution at the Nuremberg War Tribunals. Those tried were found guilty under the charge of planning and preparation for Aggressive War, though this charge carried the death penalty none of the Board members of IG Farben recieved a sentence greater than 20 years. Most were let out early due to ill health. After 1949, many of the 'Nazi Industrialists were given pardons by the then US HIgh Commissioner for Germany John J McCloy, who like Dulles had served as legal counsel to the Farben group early in its career. He had also as Assistant Secretary of War vetoed any ideas of a bombing run against Auschwitz Concentration Camp which was inextricably linked to a massive IG Farben operation.

Those that sat of the board of American IG suffered no prosecution for war crimes despite having profitted from both the planning of the Nazis offensives but also from the use of forced labour. There is also adequate documentation to suggest that IG subsiduaries based at Auschwitz participated in crimes against humanity.

The Board of American IG comprised as follows;

Charles E Mitchell, National City Bank and Federal Reserve of New York
Walter Teagle, Standard Oil New Jersey and Federal Reserve of New York
Paul M Warburg, Bank of Manhattan and founder member of Federal Reserve of New York
H A Metz, Bank of Manhattan
Edsel B Ford, Ford Motor Company
Carl Bosch, Ford Motor Company

There are other instances, IG was not isolated. Investors and bankers in Britain, the US, Switzerland and Sweden all provided Hitler with the means to launch his attempt to dominate the new, proposed Eurasian heartland. The majority of those people not only escaped prosecution but flourished in the post war economic booms.

If there is anything else you'd like to know don't hesitate to ask, may not know the answer but I may be able to find it out (if not I'm sure Golddragnet will also give it a go).