Para, look its like this, the civillian is not triend to act in a certain way to given situations as the police are, you can tell alot from that footage a the cops body langauge told me that at not point did he feel threatened until the driver walked to him.

The cop stood at the drivers window, he walked away with his back to the occupants of the vehicle all signs that he did not feel treatened.

Unfortunately as a previous poster stated cos he did not kiss ass the driver got tasered pure and simple. Yes the cops deserve respect but you have to give respect to earn respect, this cop has one and now the driver and his partner have none either. Thas my point many cops think they are above the law and all no cops are criminals, if you start your day with a bad attitude expect to get it back.

As for my comments, I have posted many times that I know of no other democratic country other than the US that its law officials regularly shoots its citizens, be it Waco, Ruby Ridge etc.

Just think of Waco alone, the authorities could have knocked every one out in that building without a shot being fired and no one would have died.

How many innocents were killed, Waco is a great stain on your country and even worse that so many sat back and did nothing.

magicmushroom

I just saw your signatures view on pain and thought it was an interesting contrast to my own signatures thoughts.

Para, I know the driver could have been smarter, but sometimes we have to relly on the proffesionals and I just see it as a worrying sign overall.

Just likwe here in the UK cops have been killing people for years in RTA's and other incidents and not one hads ever been prosecuted, the police overall have lost alot of respect from the people and its getting worse.

An important point is that the cop should not use his considerable power unless he absolutely has to - the situation basically demands it.

Neither should he be too slow to use it, because making assumptions about the detainee by how he/she looks is perilous.

But if I had to guess, I'd suspect the guy he just stopped prior to this one probably bullied him and got over a little and the cop was smarting from that - feeling he was too generous. Drivers don't always realize that the cop sees this crapola everyday all day - people wanting to argue with him.

I think studies have shown that some guys who get into law enforcement suffer from some low esteem issues, and have bullying tendencies.

Couple this with the hidden dangers of traffic stops and you can see what happens.

I think if you're normally calm and assertive and self-confident you don't need to let every little jerk you stop get your goat and make it into an ego-challenge. Back off unless you really have no choice (i.e. the guy is much bigger, threatens you, etc.)

This is why I agree with the previous poster that as soon as the guy declined to sign, he should have gone back to his car and called for backup and told the guy to stay in his car. Better to use the overwhelming numbers technique in this case.

I mean this is how you'd act if you -really- thought the guy was enough of a threat to the public to taze - so do it by the book.



[edit on 23-11-2007 by Badge01]

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Para, I know the driver could have been smarter, but sometimes we have to relly on the proffesionals and I just see it as a worrying sign overall.

I can 100% agree with that. I think that's really what it comes down to. We have to be smart and handle situations like this as best as we can, in that we worry about the things we can control. I think then, and only then, can we accurately determine what force or coercion is being used against us because we've done all we can do. That is how we get answers, but we have to be smart to begin with.

To me if the driver would have been a little more cooperative and the had cop acted the same way I'd be all over it. But the drivers behavior leaves that bit of doubt or whatever that is open to, 'well maybe the officer had some reason to feel threatened (not to taze)'. The whole acting smart thing can hopefully take our responsibility out of the equation so we can see the officer, and his actions, for what they truly are.

Originally posted by Badge01
This is why I agree with the previous poster that as soon as the guy declined to sign, he should have gone back to his car and called for backup and told the guy to stay in his car. Better to use the overwhelming numbers technique in this case.

What is wrong with not signing the ticket? I can't find anything where it says it is breaking the law if you don't sign a speeding ticket. Why couldn't the officer just said "Ok, don't sign it. It is still a valid ticket and will be admited to the court. Have a nice day"?

Does anyone have any info on how this thing ended? Was the officer found in the wrong? I read that all charges except the speeding ticket had been dropped.

[edit on 23-11-2007 by assassini]


[edit on 23-11-2007 by assassini]

Hello,
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SIGN A TICKET. Signing a ticket doesn't mean jack. ZETA is a mental case who if he is still in law enforcement after 3 whole years he should have his head examined. Any who think like him, too. The officer should have marked on his copy driver refused to sign. It was clear to me that the Utah nazi was way out of bounds.
f3

Can you imagine if the driver had just said "ooops, I screwed up, sorry, wont do it again".....he might not have even gotten a ticket. And this video would not be.

One of my very close friends is a cop (*GASP*)....and he told me that if he pulls someone over for speeding and they are polite and not giving lip...he usually will just give them a verbal warning and that's it.

But as soon as someone gives lip, they get a ticket no matter what.

Common courtesy and respect goes a long way. Giving attitude doesnt.

YOU DO NOT HAVE TO SIGN A TICKET. Signing a ticket doesn't mean jack.

This is NOT true in every state. In some states you can go to jail for refusing to sign a ticket.

[edit on 23-11-2007 by greeneyedleo]

He was told why he was pulled over. The officer told him to place his hands behind his back and he refused. All you do is follow the officer's orders and nothing will go wrong. Refusing to sign and refusing to show your license and registration is an act of defiance. The guy was looking for trouble and he got it.

Doesn't this simpleton know that signing a speeding ticket does not mean you are confessing guilt?

I was laughing when the man was saying, "read me my rights". His rights are not required to be read. He is not a suspect and he is not being questioned.

Good job to the officer

Great find. Good questions on the part of the interviewer.

The spokesman was pretty good though he lied when he replied to the question 'does "he took a ride on the Tazer" does that suggest that this sort of thing is routine"'. Hell, yes it means that. The higher ups have to give defacto approval for the tazer to be used this causally.

AND, if they are so open in the Utah PD, why not PUBLISH the 9 page guidelines on Tazer usage?

I know I defended the cop but it was with qualification. I don't expect them to be put in a position where they have to argue with the detainee. If the guy doesn't co-operate then yes, he gets tazed. It would be NICE if there was more warning, more dialog, and I question this cops motivation, but as it happened, he is allowed to taze at the point he did (excepting for omitting the warning - maybe due to stress he forgot).

To the poster above - fossil - yeah, but it's not the same - traffic stops are among the most hazardous and the cops must have fairly wide latitude to get compliance. By rights, he could have shot the wife when she didn't get back in the car and started advancing on him.

[edit on 23-11-2007 by Badge01]

Originally posted by xmotex

It is amazing to me that there are so many people out there defending this officer, who clearly escalated a nonviolent situation into a violent one without any provocation.

Look, I don't know if you're lumping me in there but I assume I may be seen on the side of the officer because I'm not damning him to hell. The driver didn't do much in the way of directly provoking the officer but regardless of any previous situation, if you are asked to put your hands on your head and you are ordered to turn around, multiple times, you are indirectly provoking action by the officer.

Not that he provoked the officer into tazing him, but when you present yourself as a threat, even when you are not one, the police officer has to act in some manner. What was the cop supposed to do, just let him walk back to his car and drive away? He didn't have to taze him, to make it clear again, but the driver was not helping the situation and is partly responsible because he has the power to choose his behavior. The driver would have never been tazed had he put his hands on his head and not attempted to go back to his vehicle. That's all I'm saying. Doesn't clear the cop, but the driver played a part in the incident.

Lets just take a step back for a second I've seen some interesting and very very manipulated and conditioned posters in this thread justifying this act and wronging this CITIZEN.
First at most this CITIZEN went a little over the speed limit a MINOR traffic infraction warranting ONLY at MOST a ticket,
Lets move ahead a bit, Ive seen replies which imply this CITIZEN for some strange reason is OBLIGATED to be talkative, friendly and courteous to this cop,
Really? so a badge and a gun somehow earns such things?

Is it really earned or is it instilled by preconceived fear?

Also maybe you all are forgetting the whole fact you don't have to say a damn word to a cop I don't care what they threaten you with you don't have to talk.

But the cops does, he works for YOU, He has to identify himself at your request, he has to tell you what you have done which warrants him to interrupt YOUR LIFE.

I don't know what world some of you live in, or how anyone finds it acceptable for whats essentially a perfect stranger much less someone you know, ordering you around like a little monkey when you have committed no crimes against another, and not violated anyones individual rights...

as stated at most this guy went a little over speed limit warranting at most a ticket who cares if he signs it? hes getting a summons to TRAFFIC COURT regardless of what he doe's with the ticket...

some will say the COP may have feared for his life which is funny seeing as the mans life was more in danger then the cops as the cop had on a Kevlar vest...


Also the cop never once acted nor handled the situation at all as if it were one that warranted fear of life, he turned his back on the man multiple times, even when he ordered the man to step out of the vehicle he had his back turned.. so thats just a BS excuse... that cop didn't fear anything he had no reason to..

he already ran the guys plates and License which would show if the man had a record... and I'm not sure about the laws in that state, but also a CCW license..


But whatever lets live in lala land where its acceptable for someone to resort to VIOLENCE for a petty TRAFFIC INFRACTION and victim less crime...

Some of you need to grow a spine and understand you are born free men, Citizens, understand that no man, no majority, and certainly no government holds power over you unless you violate the rights of another, you aren't some little monkey to be ordered around thrown on the ground and treated like dirt, you are free men, act like it.


civil disobedience, try it sometime.

[edit on 23-11-2007 by C0le]

The Driver did not obey rule #1 when pulled over by the police, follow the policeman's directions. That he repeatedly kept questioning the officer about the details did not help him.

All he had to do was provide his insurance, registration and license and the officer would have been on his way, but the driver insisted on trying to prove his point. When asked to sign the ticket and then refusing, he basically gave the officer no choice. Signing a ticket is not an admission of guilt, just acknowledgement of receiving the ticket. By refusing to sign it, the driver basically said "go ahead and arrest me", which is why the officer asked him to step out of the vehicle and put his hands on the car. That the driver left the car, proceeded to disobey a direct order from a police officer, walk past him with a hand in is pocket and then again disobey another direct order from the police officer did not leave the officer with many options. I guess he could have tackled the driver and then handcuffed him, but I am guessing the proper procedure is to use more hands off methods of subduing people, like the taser or pepper gas.

Point blank, if the driver just obeyed the directions of the officer, he would not have been tazed. Officers don't have to be charming when pulling over cars, antagonizing and disobeying them is a sure way to get in more trouble.