September 11, 2001

Originally posted by lilblam


More assumptions. My mother writes "From Santa" on my presents, and then tries to pass it off as Santa's work. I don't know it though. I also believe my mother is too incompetent to manage to pull something off like that, and have me never find it out. Somebody in my family HAS a conscience!
Assumptions have no business in objectivity. But some people don't consider objectivity their business! Do you?

If your mother writing from SC on your presents invovled the deaths of a few thouasand people, your analogy might be pertinent. As of now, it is not.

If you remove the "and hightail it" part, would that make your statement true? If not, why not?

So the government just wants to make money? Hoarding this wealth for what (Now, I'm not saying specific people might not want money, but an entire administration? If they have all this wealth, the deficit should be no problemo).

Hitler believed it was for the good of the people to exterminate the Jews. He really did, and he thought he was doing God's work, GOOD work. Subjectivity and "beliefs" have no business with objectivity. But some people don't consider objectivity their business. Do you?

He also was basically a dictator for life. Bush is gone in 4, 8 years tops. No comparison.

And I don't believe Hitler would allow his own "cromies" to create the Reichstag fire. Also I don't believe that he would resort to killing 6 million Jews to further his cause. There has GOT TO BE an easier way to getting what he wants. Hmmm... assumptions... beliefs... how much DO they help? I wonder...

They help alot more than assuming the Illuminati are behind every door, lurking in every shadow.

But if they are incompetent, why are they an evil shadow government? Also, isn't the word "evil" subjective and based on personal judgement of any sutiation that is derived from your preconceptions and beliefs?

You're afraid of them, aren't you? Why should you? Fear isn't an objective emotion, is it?

How does that fit into OBJECTIVITY? Doesn't seem to be able to! Does a square peg fit into a round hole?

I'm beating a square peg into a round hole. You're bashing a Mack Truck into one. You're going to completely destroy your ability to see the hole, you'll only see the truck you are driving.

Then you make assumptions that BECAUSE they didn't use their evil mind control ray and didn't plant WMD's in Iraq, all your suspicions of them being "bad" are cleared! Phew glad we solved that problem.

But 'they' don't even exist. Show me they do.

I also believe that because it was the WORLD TRADE CENTER that blew up instead of the Eifel Tower, whoever did the blowing up has NO problem with the French at all! In fact, because they didn't ALSO blow up the Eifel Tower, I believe the terrorists are also incompetent and did not have the resources to do it. Yup, my assumptions kick ass.

The terrorists could surely do it. They sure as hell couldn't cover it up, though.

They can't for the following reasons:

First, because I don't think they exist. I just assume that, but truly have no clue. But because they didn't use a death ray on washington DC and stuff, I believe that proves their lack of existance.

Whereas you assume they do exist without a shred of evidence that could lead you to beleive that there is even anybody behind the scenes, let alone a secret world government.

Second, I think our own government is very poor, weak, and has no resources to pull off what happened. I believe that islamic cave people are way smarter, richer, and more powerful than the government of the most powerful superpower in the entire world. Why do I believe that? I have no clue! I just do! It's faith I guess!

The Islamics had much more of a reason to destroy the WTC than the government did.



Tell me, liblam, why do you believe there is a Shadow Government?

First, my mother didn't cause 9/11. But neither did the government write "Santa" on my presents. Keep the analogies analogous please!

Many people throughout history decided that because they have no "proof" for the existance of something, it must not exist. We both KNOW that it didn't work out so good for them...

You assume I'm afraid of the shadow government. You assume I believe they exist. I am not afraid. Also, read the news report issued after 9/11.. in the same year I think. There already is a publically-known shadow government. Well BESIDES that...

There is plenty of evidence, clues all over the place to suggest it. Not just that, some stories have been "leaked" directly ABOUT it. People whose relatives have been recruited have come out. Historical assassinations that are covered up. Coincidental/mysterious "suicides" of important people.

Does this prove anything? No.

But it starts to build a picture that the world isn't what the idealistic view of it by most people seems to be. There is something that works behind the scene, and someone desperately is hiding it. Does this prove there's a shadow government? No

But considering what I've read and seen, from sources I KNOW are credible, and other sources I'm not sure of, I give the existance of a secret one-world government a high probability. Illuminati, 33rd degree Masons, Quarum, Consortium, and many other groups have slipped up before. If you pay attention to the signs, to the clues, and to the "evidence", you might not be so sure in your idea that they don't exist, after all. Will you find proof that they exist? Probably not... but is proof the ONLY thing that guarantees the existance of something?

Could you prove to me that YOU exist? I'd think hard on that one before you rush

[Edited on 3-2-2004 by lilblam]

terrorist of an arab nation, possibly funded by OBL. no CIA involvment what so ever

Originally posted by lilblam
First, my mother didn't cause 9/11. But neither did the government write "Santa" on my presents. Keep the analogies analogous please!

That was exactly my point.

Many people throughout history decided that because they have no "proof" for the existance of something, it must not exist. We both KNOW that it didn't work out so good for them...

I didn't ask for proof. I asked for evidence. Don't change my stipulations on me.

You assume I'm afraid of the shadow government. You assume I believe they exist. I am not afraid. Also, read the news report issued after 9/11.. in the same year I think. There already is a publically-known shadow government. Well BESIDES that...

Coulda fooled me on the fear part.
And I assume you believe in the SG because you have said as much.
And if the shadow government you are referring too is an advisory council...I don't see how that can be blown up into a worldwide conspiracy.

There is plenty of evidence, clues all over the place to suggest it. Not just that, some stories have been "leaked" directly ABOUT it. People whose relatives have been recruited have come out. Historical assassinations that are covered up.

Care providing a link to one?

Coincidental/mysterious "suicides" of important people.

Government murders of political enemies does not equate to worldwide conpsiracy.

Does this prove anything? No.

Doesn't have too. Just has to prove a possibility. Which you have not provided.

But it starts to build a picture that the world isn't what the idealistic view of it by most people seems to be. There is something that works behind the scene, and someone desperately is hiding it. Does this prove there's a shadow government? No

There are people behind the scenes, yes. That question, though, is the worldwide control they seek.

But considering what I've read and seen, from sources I KNOW are credible, and other sources I'm not sure of, I give the existance of a secret one-world government a high probability. Illuminati, 33rd degree Masons, Quarum, Consortium, and many other groups have slipped up before. If you pay attention to the signs, to the clues, and to the "evidence", you might not be so sure in your idea that they don't exist, after all. Will you find proof that they exist? Probably not... but is proof the ONLY thing that guarantees the existance of something?

It's amazing that there are so many different one world governments .
Show me a sign. Show me a clue. Show me something. Vague allusions to 'your sources' are not convincing.

Could you prove to me that YOU exist? I'd think hard on that one before you rush

Give me your address, and I could visit your home, shake your hand, mayhap deliver a code word only I would know. Whether you believe me is up to you, though.

Exactly my point! No matter how much proof you give to some people, they can still NOT believe you. If proof guaranteed existance, I'd have NO CHOICE but to believe you.

But you shaking my hand doesn't mean you exist at all. I could be hallucinating. Could be a dream. Could be a robot!

Anyways, why do you want ME to give you links to hint or suggest the possibility of the existance of the shadow government? Look around on ATS and read some research that has been done... look it up on google.. just see if you can find anything.

If you really don't want to, then don't bother. But I'm not going to go dig for it just to show you here. I didn't "save" anything... didn't think I'd have to use it again. There's really lots of stuff though...

So, you are telling me that there is definitely a Shadow Government, but aren't willing to provide a single shred of evidence?

Why should I search ATS? So I can see more threads of allusions to "credible sources" and "government defectors"?

You claimed that the SG existed, I asked you to back it up. Not prove, just provide a single...anything, that could cause someone to enterain the idea as more the total fantasy. You didn't.

I can shake your hand. I can call you on the phone. I can do any nubmer of things, and none of them have to convince you. But at least I would have given you the evidence. You haven't given me anything except the run-around.

I just performed two forum searches.

Shadow Government Evidence.
Shadow Government Proof.

Grand total of hits- zilch.

But what makes you think it doesn't exist?

Also, I'm dropping this. With enough research, you can find evidence. I did, and VERY credible evidence at that. But unless you spend many hours reading and thinking about it, it doesn't make a difference.

So let's pretend I have no evidence, and if I did, it wouldn't do you any good anyway. Do you have any reason to assume that the shadow government doesn't exist?

I guess that would depend on the definition of shadow government. Does a secret society count? What would fall under the meaning of "shadow government"?

Oh I found this as one of the main links right off the front page of ATS...

www.abovetopsecret.com...


here's something interesting..

www.wacoexaminer.com...


[Edited on 3-2-2004 by lilblam]

Alright, after this I'll drop it to.

Originally posted by lilblam
But what makes you think it doesn't exist?

The total lack of any evidence whatsoever that I have ever seen.

Also, I'm dropping this. With enough research, you can find evidence. I did, and VERY credible evidence at that. But unless you spend many hours reading and thinking about it, it doesn't make a difference.

You make the claim, you need to provide the reason for your claim. Forgive me if I don't take you completely seriously from now on

So let's pretend I have no evidence, and if I did, it wouldn't do you any good anyway. Do you have any reason to assume that the shadow government doesn't exist?

If I have no reason to assume they do exist, I certainly have reason to assume they don't exist. I have no reason to assume a dog isn't living in my room, besides the fact that I have never seen any reason to believe a dog is in my room.
It's not that I'm actively disbelieving. I'm just not believing, because I have no reason to do so.

I guess that would depend on the definition of shadow government. Does a secret society count? What would fall under the meaning of "shadow government"?

The NWO, Illuminati, secret society controlling the administration...you know, crackpot stuff.

Oh I found this as one of the main links right off the front page of ATS...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[Edited on 3-2-2004 by lilblam]

None of which have anything to do with a secret world government. Secret governemnt agencies, yes, but I doubt that is what you meant by shadow government.

I heard from a friend who lost someone in the attacks that they had fire drills all that week except on the 11th. I find that quite odd

Originally posted by Esoterica
I just performed two forum searches.

Shadow Government Evidence.
Shadow Government Proof.

Grand total of hits- zilch.

Ummmm, I'm not making fun of your "search" but really....don't ya think they would REALLY keep tabs on that kind of info? But you do get results from the queary
www.google.com...

But there is a real Shadow Goverment...they are the people that went to the bunkers when 9-11 happened, in case something major happened to the US.

abcnews.go.com...



[Edited on 10-2-2004 by NetStorm]

If there was not an inside job, then why WT7 collapsed ? a jew named Silverstein was the owner.

Too many coincidences with Jews involved.

Originally posted by Esoterica
First, I invoke Godwin's Law. (Look it up on google if you have no clue what I'm talking about).

Second, you claim I am making assumptions.

Show me one (1) iota of evidence that there is a shadow government. And by evidence, I don't mean "Bush said one thing, and another happened, so therefore the Shadow Government is in control."

Show me one source that is actually checkable (which means conspiracytheorist4life.com's "Mysterious Informant" does not count) that would lead me to believe there is an SG at work. Once you do that, I will consider that it may exist. Otherwise, stop telling me not to make assumptions when your entire world view is based on them.

Let me make a law an post it on a website called "Lilblam's law" that says "Anyone who argues with lilblam is wrong, but also anyone who verbally invokes the law on a message board will be ignored" and it will be the equivalent of Godwin's nonsense.

The point of the shadow government is to remain secret, so therefore I can't show you a checkable source. If someone says they've worked for it and went public for their own safety, is that a source for you? What about Bob Lazar? You can call him up and "check" and he'll tell you the same thing he said on his website. But let's not "assume" there isn't just because it makes you feel good to hope that there isn't. And let's not assume that because there is no "mind control death ray in cherios" that you're aware of, doesn't mean mind control tactics aren't widely and obviously implemented.

I believe the U.S. cause 9/11 to happen for one reason:

Everyone repeat after me. Oil! Oil! Oil! Read the following for more:

www.disclosureproject.org...
www.seaspower.com...

[Edited on 10-2-2004 by mrmulder]

The point of the shadow government is to remain secret, so therefore I can't show you a checkable source. If someone says they've worked for it and went public for their own safety, is that a source for you? What about Bob Lazar? You can call him up and "check" and he'll tell you the same thing he said on his website. But let's not "assume" there isn't just because it makes you feel good to hope that there isn't. And let's not assume that because there is no "mind control death ray in cherios" that you're aware of, doesn't mean mind control tactics aren't widely and obviously implemented.

If its so obvious, why is there no evidence?

I don't accept the NWO not because I don't want to, but I ahve no reason in the wolrd to think it exists. Not one. Not a single shred of evidence form anyone that can back up their story in the slightest. You seem to be the one that is believing in something because you want to.

Let me make a law an post it on a website called "Lilblam's law" that says "Anyone who argues with lilblam is wrong, but also anyone who verbally invokes the law on a message board will be ignored" and it will be the equivalent of Godwin's nonsense.

It exists. Just because I have no evidence it is real does not mean it isn't. You jsut don't want to beleive that it is real. I have seen many thing to assure me Godwin's Law is real...unfortunately, I can provide none of them. But don't let that stop you, you MUST believe in it.

I thinks thats crazy.
Who would blow up billions of dollars worth of buldings and kill all those people just for some oil?

I dont think that the 9/11 had anything to do with the oil crisis But I do believe that the US attacked Iraq for this reason.

Saying that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and in the end it was announced that no such weapons were found.

If this link doesn't work go to from the wilderness and then to life after September 11. If they didn't do it themselves they allowed to happen.
www.fromthewilderness.com...

Originally posted by masterp
If there was not an inside job, then why WT7 collapsed ? a jew named Silverstein was the owner.

Too many coincidences with Jews involved.

Well, first let me say...we don't need racist terms such as this here. I'm sure there is some derogatory term that applies to you masterp. I don't think you would appriciate that either.

Second, I just don't buy the "look under every rock shodow government". If any of you have been in a situation of extreme chaos...you would know. Things go crazy and extreme things happen. People don't think right, people don't react right. Normally, the government armchair buracrats will then sit back and pick the situation apart. That is what they do.

Something people think a shred like "the building collapsed and Bush didn't blink..." just doesn't do it for me. Some terrorists take over planes, kill people and then crash them killing thousands, and people take that an try and say America or Bush planned it?

I get so tired of this one.

Originally posted by Eternal
I thinks thats crazy.
Who would blow up billions of dollars worth of buldings and kill all those people just for some oil?

I dont think that the 9/11 had anything to do with the oil crisis.

You need to read the two links I provided in my post above. i believe them to be true.

"The pattern was set early in his administration: leak a scary story about foreign enemies, grab the headlines. If, much later, reporters poke holes in the cover story, so what? The truth will receive far less attention than the original lie, and by then another round of falsehoods will be dominating the headlines." -Unreliable Sources by Martin Lee and Normon Solomon