Russia opposition candidate shot

Few points:

Murdered candidate was no threath to Kremlin. Kremlin rather need these small parties to make the elections look at least a bit more legitimate. And for the same reasons CIA or (Insert an intel agency) wont care about these. Most of Russian politicians get their funding from very shady sources, so the criminal element (only a few factions are controlled by the Kreml) would be my best bet.

Originally posted by RedGolem

Originally posted by Rigel

Then should I guess you got ref for the three other items as well ?

For the three other items I could see where a connection might be made although doubtful any references exist.
I am aware it takes decades for official material to become unclassified. That does not mean that connections are not being made. It also most definitely does not mean that there is a CIA connection just because you say there is. So if it is just your opinion it is best to make some sort of reference that it is just your opinion.

That is not my opinon but a prediction, an analysis if you like.

Except official declaration - wich is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE by the structure of the event itself, - all you'll ever read about it will BE ALWAYS SPECULATION.

Originally posted by RedGolem

Originally posted by Rigel

Capitalism and US policies are doomed to fail soon or late. Empire syndroma, - that strucked down Roman empire as well as the Greek, the Perse, the Assyrian etc.

So you are saying you do not want Capitalism? Does that also mean you do not want freely elected governments?

I'm anarchist, kamarat. No Ca$h No $tate No Bo$$.

They just had to insert Putin's name and a rumor about harassment into that article, to remind everyone that Putin still has a firm hold on Russia.

Dagestan, where this guy was murdered, has long been a hot spot for violence in Russia. It borders Chechnya, and during the beginning of the Second Chechen War, the war actually spilled over into Dagestan. Just like in Chechnya, the violence never really subsided. In fact Dagestan is the most dangerous place in Russia on par with Chechnya right now. All the violence is fueled by Chechen and Arab Islamist insurgents who still hold a belief that they will turn Caucasus into a marvelous caliphate.

Judging by this guy's name, he is a local. That means he probably has a lot of enemies in Dagestan/Chechnya, because you cannot be a politician from that region and not have at least a few dozen people who want to see you dead. I think this guy had bigger issues to worry about than Putin slipping some obscure chemical into his morning coffee, and I think those issues just caught up with him.


Up to this day, there is no proof that anyone was assassinated by Putin's personal decree, or even for his cause. I am not saying that FSB is not involved in any of these high profile cases, but Putin is getting far more credit for these assassination than he should be. Many are forgetting that Russia is not run by any one man, or even fully by the government. It is run by powerful people who held power long before Putin became president. There are forces in Russia much more sinister in that respect than Putin, because they will not hesitate to use any means necessary to liquidate someone, and they have nothing to lose in terms of PR. Who are they? Oligarchs, corrupt officials, mafia, warlords such as those currently running Chechnya.

In fact the oligarchs and their organized corruption rings, yes the very same ones US and the West has grown so fond of, are known to have killed more people during the 90's, and to this day, than the federal government could ever hope to. They ran the anarchy that was Russia in the 90's, and any barrier to their profits and power would be liquidated in a bloody and very public matter - to make an example. This "public" assassination has become their trademark.

Same thing with Politkovskaya, and Litvinenko. Politkovskaya was a far greater enemy of Chechen pro-Russian warlord Kadyrov than Putin. And Kadyrov is well known for solving these problems the old fashioned way. There are dozens of reporters like Politkovskaya, and what would Putin gain by getting rid of only one of them. Hell he has the power to make all of them disappear in an instant. As for Litvinenko? That guy had more skeletons in his closet than even the scum he was working with in London (read Berezovsky and Chechen exiles). For all we know he had enemies across Russia and Chechnya, not limited to Putin or the Russian government.

[edit on 22-11-2007 by maloy]

Originally posted by rockets red glare
THE TRUTH IS THE RUSSIANS WANT TO SQUASH THE UKRAINE FROM MOVING TWARD THE WEST E.U. AND NATO!

Back to Ukraine? Is that your agenda or something? Is this the same Ukraine you were making referrenced to in the other thread? The same Ukraine which you alleged had 20% of Russia's nukes and had Putin "scared ****less"? If it is, then you might want to take some time off to read about what has been happening in Ukraine for the last 15 years, and what is happening there today.

Originally posted by rockets red glare
THEIR GOV. IS STILL ATHORITARIAN SCOCIALISM.

As opposed to the U.S. government, which is a CAPITALIST MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX RUN BY A COURT JESTER.

Originally posted by rockets red glare
KEEPING THEIR BOOT ON THE NECK OF EASTERN EUROPE IS THEIR GOAL.

Someone needs to lick the dirt off our boots. U.S. has the whole world licking the dirt off their boots, can't we at least have Eastern Europe? Pretty Please?

By the way - is your caps lock button stuck?

Originally posted by rockets red glare
BUT, HEY LETS BLAME THE EVIL UNITED STATES!

Works for 2/3 of the world. How do you think Chavez and Ahmadinejad, among a dozen other world leaders got elected. Blaming the U.S. is now a PR stunt, just like blaming Russia is a political stunt. The world is a circus.

Originally posted by rockets red glare
HOW DARE THEY HAVE A FOREIGN POLICY. HOW TERRIBLE OF THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES HAVE A GOVERNMENT TO REPRESENT THEM IN WORLD POLITICS.

Holy damn. The US people have a government that represent THEM in the world politics? All this time I thought the US government was an employee of the capitalists and corporations. Well maybe this representative government is a little laggy to follow the public wants, but I would say it is representing someone other than its people in Iraq.

Originally posted by rockets red glare
WHO DO AMERICANS THINK THEY ARE? WHY SHOULD THEY HAVE A VOICE IN THE FUTURE EVENTS THAT SHAPE OUR WORLD.

Sadly it is not just THEIR world that the US is shaping, but it is everybody elses too.

Originally posted by rockets red glare
LETS FACE IT, EVERTHING THAT HAPPENS THAT SEEMS BAD, IT'S AMERICA'S FAULT!

Thats what you get for being the world's sole superpower. How about this - give your place on top of the hill to Russia, along with all the blame and negative publicity. Mkay? You can't have your pie and eat it too.

[edit on 22-11-2007 by maloy]

Ok everyone, this thread is about a dead Russian politician, not whether or not US foreign policy is the cause of all the world's problems. That is a debate for another time. Rigel, the Russians are more than capable of having their own conspiracies without American involvement. Rockets red glare, please undo your caps lock, you're making the rest of us Yanks look bad.

Back on to the actual topic at hand. The guy does seem a bit too small time for FSB or the CIA to take an interest in him, and if anything small guys like that do make elections look more legitimate without undermining anyone's power. The criminal element in Russia seems likely, and I wouldn't put it past any of the local religious extremists either.

Stay tuned on this election folks, I get the feeling this isn't the end of it.

Originally posted by cyberdude78
Stay tuned on this election folks, I get the feeling this isn't the end of it.

The West seems to have already shunned and discredited this election, by withdrawing its election analysts so far ahead of time. It think that was done on purpose, to underline that whatever the result will be (and we all know what it will be), they disagree with it.

To the West it seems unthinkable that a leader and his party can legitimatelly have 70% of the public support. I have a feeling that the West will not be acceptable of the next Russian President, if he maintains Putin's policies.

The reason the governments out here in the west don't trust Russia's elections are because Russia is still our big rival. I'd like to see that change since both Russia and America can learn a lot from each other, but it's easier for politicians to simply demonize the rival. The game of mud slinging at your opponent takes place on both sides and has been for many years.

The western public in my opinion distrusts Russia simply because we see comparisons to Nazi Germany. What we see is large amounts of loyalty to a single leader while also seeing opponents mysteriously poisoned. Right or wrong, it doesn't look too good from our perspective in the west.

Either way I think that with the rivalry between America and Russia heating up again this is going to be an important election for everyone. Hopefully we'll see Russian leadership that's a bit more friendly, and then hopefully that will be matched by the elections coming up next year in America.

Originally posted by cyberdude78
The western public in my opinion distrusts Russia simply because we see comparisons to Nazi Germany.

This is the same reason Russians are somewhat ampathetic of Americans. They see Bush's actions are highly assertive and aggresive, especially concerning wars in the Middle East and the missile shield. No doubt the media propaganda on both sides largely attributes to these feelings. And if the media sends such message, the politicians likely benefits from it. So this animosity is largely fueled for politicial interests of both sides, and I think it will not go away easily.

Originally posted by cyberdude78
Either way I think that with the rivalry between America and Russia heating up again this is going to be an important election for everyone. Hopefully we'll see Russian leadership that's a bit more friendly, and then hopefully that will be matched by the elections coming up next year in America.

I doubt you will see an ease of relations and more friendly leadership on Russia's side. One bad thing that Putin has done, is create a malicious sense of nationalism among many Russia - and I say malicious because in my opinion all ignorant nationalism is malicious. This nationalism might have united Russians, but it also united them against the U.S., which they now perceive as an enemy - whether it's right or wrong. This is what is termed as the "narcissism of minor differences" in my sig. And Putin's speeches are only reinforcing this.

And as such the next leader will likely be even more of a hardliner than Putin. Honestly, the choice that Russians face right now in elections is very poor in all respects. First it doesn't seem like anyone is in a position to replace Putin and continue his policies with same success and support. Second it doesn't seem like any potential candidates even known where they want Russia to head in the future. I don't expect much of any of them right now, but then no one expected much from Putin in 1999 either.

I think the U.S. has more potential in term of candidates. But it doesn't seem that even the Democrats will change the U.S. foreign policy by much - thus foreign relations will stay as they are.

Originally posted by Rigel
I'm anarchist, kamarat. No Ca$h No $tate No Bo$$.

ahhhh... so you understand nothing about social structures and the need for leadership eh? come back when you know a little about governance.

saying your an anarchist is like saying your an arsonist... not really showing the smart side of your card.

Basically when I read that, I read "I don't like authority; but I'm to lazy and uninformed to actually do something about it"

if you think I'm being harsh research anarchy on the net, and any educated website will inform you of the HUNDREDS of flaws with this political viewpoint.

just for one example good luck eating... after all no bosses, no control... lots of food not being gathered equals food shortage... equals massive starvation, which yields to the anarchists idea of I'll just steal food. Thing is there is no one to punish you from stealing from me... Soooo... theres no one to punish me for blowing your head off for stealing my crops/corn/food whatever term you like to use.


have fun trying to find a way to explain that down... Remember... No One is In Charge...

edit to add
also... why do you assume the CIA was involved? Why couldn't it have been the Kremlin? after all... THERE RUSSIA'S covert agency. Hell they've been in charge of every coupe in russia since the removal of Gorbachev from power.


[edit on 11/22/2007 by coven]

What does Russia stand for? They are a miserable nation. All the Soviets care about is how they can make their country bigger and more powerful to have more slaves for the states machine. The Soviets lost and they wont ever get that back. All their neighbors will fight the next time Russia comes calling and the have allot of help this time. They don't care about there people. They have ticking time bombs all over that country in the form of nuclear subs rotting and Chernobyl is going to get exposed again soon and what does Russia do about? Stomp their feet and yell at the U.S. for no good reason, Then build more nukes.
ATTENTION: We Americans and our government don't care about your Pooh hole of a country. We will watch you implode with your irresponsible acts. If you want help you don't cry like North Korea, You ask us and we will give you the shirts off our backs. You threaten us and we will watch you starve. Remember we feed you.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
What does Russia stand for?

Just a country really. What do you want them to stand for?

Originally posted by Sky watcher
They are a miserable nation.

Many Russians may be miserable, but its more because its cold and there is a constant shortage of vodka. You know who I think is more miserable? Canadians!!!

Originally posted by Sky watcher
All the Soviets care about is how they can make their country bigger and more powerful to have more slaves for the states machine.

We can always raid neighboring Eastern Europeans and Mongolians for slaves and war booty. As for size - I think Russia is not lacking in that department.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
The Soviets lost and they wont ever get that back.

How come the Soviets are involved in every discussion about Russia? Are they the new overt NWO or something?

Originally posted by Sky watcher
They don't care about there people.

Thats because we Russians are so caring - we put other people first, before our own people.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Chernobyl is going to get exposed again soon and what does Russia do about?

I am thinking what is Ukraine going to do about, seeing as how Chernobyl is in Ukraine.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
Stomp their feet and yell at the U.S. for no good reason, Then build more nukes.

We stomp our feet and yell alot because it keeps us warm. As for nukes - well they can also keep us warm.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
ATTENTION: We Americans and our government don't care about your Pooh hole of a country.

Oh no - that just ruined Russia's day. Just the thought of US not giving a pooh about us, makes us feel lonely and sad. Unfortunately I think Russia's presence in your news speaks differently concerning your priorities. I think deep inside you care about us - and thats sweet, really.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
We will watch you implode with your irresponsible acts.

And we will watch you implode with your irresponsible acts. And why would you be watching us anyway - I though you didnt care about us?

Originally posted by Sky watcher
If you want help you don't cry like North Korea, You ask us and we will give you the shirts off our backs.

We don't need your shirts, we will keep warm by stomping our feet and yelling and building nukes.

Originally posted by Sky watcher
You threaten us and we will watch you starve. Remember we feed you.

I gotta say - for all of Russia - AMERICA THANK YOU FOR FEEDING US PUTTING FOOD ON OUR TABLE. Whatever would we do without you. I had a McDonalds today, with some fries and a milk shake, and I gotta admit it was good. Please don't starve us of McDonalds.




Hey at least your post wasn't in all CAPS.

[edit on 22-11-2007 by maloy]

reply to post by maloy


Maloy
thanks for taking the time to replay to the statements and questions put forth. Those who have taken the time to read your posts now have at least a little better understanding of what is going on.

reply to post by Rigel


Even though I'm an American man, I know about our CIA. I agree with you my friend. We need to take a lesson or two from the French and have a full fledged revolt in this country.

reply to post by maloy


Instead of bashing Russia, I will use this time to learn more about Russia. Maloy, What do you think about the political situation in your country? It seems to me that you all have made much economic progress in the last few years, are you living well over there?

One other thing that I would like to know about is your petroleum situation. If I understand correctly Russia is the world's leading producer of crude oil, and gas. How has this changed things in Russia?

Also what is your relationship like with China? What about Iran?
Do you think Russia would back Iran militarily against U.S. forces in the Middle East if Iran was bombed by a coalition of U.S./Israeli forces?

What is your favorite kind of Vodka?

Thanks in advance
DT

Originally posted by Sky watcher
What does Russia stand for? They are a miserable nation. All the Soviets care about is how they can make their country bigger and more powerful to have more slaves for the states machine. The Soviets lost and they wont ever get that back. All their neighbors will fight the next time Russia comes calling and the have allot of help this time. They don't care about there people. They have ticking time bombs all over that country in the form of nuclear subs rotting and Chernobyl is going to get exposed again soon and what does Russia do about? Stomp their feet and yell at the U.S. for no good reason, Then build more nukes.
ATTENTION: We Americans and our government don't care about your Pooh hole of a country. We will watch you implode with your irresponsible acts. If you want help you don't cry like North Korea, You ask us and we will give you the shirts off our backs. You threaten us and we will watch you starve. Remember we feed you.

Your post is quite a stereotype and quite untrue. I'm American and I for one think Russia has alot of wonderful culture and heritage. They suffer from many of the same afflictions as we do here in our Government. This was in my opinion probably a mob type hit now I think about it.

Wow!!! Really going back and forth with the French here. Do you want the Statue back? just kidding. In all seriousness, I believe Putin and the CIA are involved. We all know (well maybe not all) we are only shown what the elite want us to see. We are never and will never be given the whole truth.
It is very hard not to believe that Putin is involved somehow. I believe he has a master plan to bring Russia back to the way it once was. Not friendly with the US. At the same time, I must add that we (the US) are not doing the greatest things that we can to ensure our solid place among foreign relations.

[edit on 11/22/2007 by palehorse23]

Originally posted by downtown436
Instead of bashing Russia, I will use this time to learn more about Russia. Maloy, What do you think about the political situation in your country?

Political situation is very sad really. Politics in Russia right now are mostly reserved for the following groups: Putin; oligarchs and their puppets; morons; even bigger morons. So really the choice for those who possess anything resembling a brain is Putin or oligarchs (a very limited choice), while others resort to rallying behind the two divisions of morons. And although it is sad, it is not like Russia had it any better in the 90's. It hit rock bottom then, and has slowly crept up.

Personally I do not see any promising candidate. What many Russians definitely do not want is a return to oligarchy that was in place under Yeltsin. The country was robbed by a serious of opportunists, who managed to secure allies within the goverment, as well as alliences with the West. Meanwhile everyone else was left with nothing. Putin's politicies more or less are nationalistic, in that they favor the nation over individual oligarchs. That is not to say there are no more oligarchs and corruption, only that there is more emphasis on the "country".

And while Putin was able to improve the economy and nationalize national resources, which in turn improved the standard of living, he is creating a new malicious nationalistic cult. This cult seems to believe that Putin is their new messiah, and they place full trust in him. And this following make him yet more arrogant. I think it is the case of the people corrupting the leader with their overwhelming support. There are no checks and balances, just Putin. So far he hasn't really abused his leadership, but if he does there is nothing stopping him.

As for the future it all depends on what Putin will do, and who he will install to succeed him. Whoever he installs, will get elected, if only because of overwhelming support. So all eyes now are on the "successors", and currently they are not yet identified.

Originally posted by downtown436
It seems to me that you all have made much economic progress in the last few years, are you living well over there?

In the period of 1996 to 1998 Russian economy (and standard of living) hit rock bottom. And by that I mean it could not go any lower, because it was reduced to nothing. So naturally any progress since then, has been positive.

Reinforced by prices of natural resources and energy (not just oil, but natural gas, precious metals, and other resources), which Putin mostly nationalized, the Russian economy has been growing rather well without any obstacles for about 8 years now. There are still primarily two classes: the super rich, and everyone else. The super rich are the oligarchs, or better termed as the new Russian aristocracy. These "new Russians" border on flithy rich, and throw away their money on luxuries all around Europe, while much of Russia despises them. Maybe that is why they are slowly isolating themselves from the rest of Russia, much like the aristocracy did 100 years ago.

But those who are not among this "aristocracy" are living better now I must say. While wages are low and prices are high, there are low income taxes, and almost no property taxes. Most people can afford things like cars and computers. The younger generation is especially better off, are able to adapt to new job requirement (managers, attorneys, financists). There is always need for this blue-collar workforce now because of the growing economy, so almost all college graduates find a job right away. I work as an analyst for an insurance and finance firm. The older generation is not as well-off, and still lives like they did in 1990 - but they are not exactly dying of hunger.

And of course all money in the country naturally flows to Moscow, leaving all other regions underdeveloped while Moscow rivals London and New York.

Originally posted by downtown436
One other thing that I would like to know about is your petroleum situation. If I understand correctly Russia is the world's leading producer of crude oil, and gas. How has this changed things in Russia?

I believe it is the biggest exporter of energy in the world (gas, petroleum, electricity). Under Putin profits from these enterprises flow to the government, alas through a network of new oligarchs - CEOs and Investors. But the government's large new budget is easily felt in large cities. Construction, public developments, and restorations are everywhere. But the main result is the improvement of economy.

I know many people say that Russia's fast growing economy revolves around natural resources. That is true, and I believe the country (both government and private investors) should use their new fortunes to fund industries - but this is barely happening. If oil prices dip, Russian economy follows them. And when oil runs out - one can only guess. It is likely that Putin's successor will face major issues about where to take Russia's economy.

Originally posted by downtown436
Also what is your relationship like with China?

I'd summarize it as tolerable - Russia tolerates China and China does otherwise. The two never really were allies since Stalin died, and although relationships are improving Russia and Russians do not trust China and are cautious of it. I do not believe Russia and China will have a true alliance anytime soon, unless U.S. steps up its assertiveness on the world stage even more.

China has been slowly encrouching on Eastern Siberia, mostly overtly but still aggressively. Tens of thousands of illegal Chinese migrants cross into Russia every year. Now I do not have a problem with that, given Russia's demographic problems. But the thing is that Chinese government is known to facilitate and encourage these crossings, to develop a large Chinese diaspora in Russia. The Chinese illegaly transpher poor-quality goods into Russia, and illegaly take resources like timber and precious metals back into China. Many Chinese investors (likely funded by the government) have been buying up Russia's resource (metals and coal) mines and timber yards. To maintain relations with China, Russian politicians close their eyes to this issue.

Originally posted by downtown436
What about Iran? Do you think Russia would back Iran militarily against U.S. forces in the Middle East if Iran was bombed by a coalition of U.S./Israeli forces??

Short and simple - NO. Russia would not lend firect military assistance, as in its own military personel or assets, to Iran. However it very well could sell (emphasis - not GIVE) Iran some new military hardware, such as the newest SAM systems, which US and Israel have been so affraid of for years now. These systems would make the initial air war in Iran a pain in the ass for the U.S/Israel (do you honestly believe Israel is in a position to attack Iran)? That is about as far as Russian help would go. Of course I am speaking in terms of Putin politics. God forbid someone from the moron league such as Zhirinovsky comes to power - than anything is anyone's guess.

There is no basis for a Russian-Iranian allience. Russia is only helping Iran to create an issue of contention, which it can later use to bolster its side in some negotiations. For example - if US decided against placing the missile shield in E. Europe, Russia will cease aiding Iran and building their reactor.

Originally posted by downtown436
What is your favorite kind of Vodka?

The moonshine my grandfather used to make beats any vodka, or the fruit drinks they call vodka these days. As for the store brands, almost anything is acceptable, especially after 4 shots, particularly Swiss (Xellent). And no fruits of any kind.

Good hopefully putin and can stop america he is the only one stopping ww3 he must take power or bush will nuke us all.

As much as we all may dislike Bush, saying that he's going to nuke everyone if Putin doesn't take power is a tad bit extreme. Bush is no idiot, he knows just as well as everyone else that there's nothing to actually be gained from a full scale nuclear war. And if you look closely, you'll notice that Putin isn't all that different from Bush.

Originally posted by coven

Originally posted by Rigel
I'm anarchist, kamarat. No Ca$h No $tate No Bo$$.

ahhhh... so you understand nothing about social structures and the need for leadership eh? come back when you know a little about governance.

saying your an anarchist is like saying your an arsonist... not really showing the smart side of your card.

Basically when I read that, I read "I don't like authority; but I'm to lazy and uninformed to actually do something about it"

if you think I'm being harsh research anarchy on the net, and any educated website will inform you of the HUNDREDS of flaws with this political viewpoint.

just for one example good luck eating... after all no bosses, no control... lots of food not being gathered equals food shortage... equals massive starvation, which yields to the anarchists idea of I'll just steal food. Thing is there is no one to punish you from stealing from me... Soooo... theres no one to punish me for blowing your head off for stealing my crops/corn/food whatever term you like to use.


[edit on 11/22/2007 by coven]