Children herded like cattle into Maryland courthouse for forced vaccinations

Originally posted by Chyort

The amount misinformation, bad information and ignorance of this thread is amazing.

And you just keep adding to it.

I will respond to your other posts later. They are all false, with nothing to show for vaccines except the standard misleading and bogus PR.

And you are still not listening.

Originally posted by RogerT
And you are still not listening.

I'm sure he heard you. But he's probably not convinced by your argument, as am I.

Are you unaware of how the immune system works? Or are you simply trying to jam a square peg into a round hole to fit your beliefs?

Originally posted by zerotime
No one is going to rise up because the vast majority already vaccinated their children. We are talking about a very small percentage that have not or will not vaccinate.

I don't believe their vaccinations are a good thing but maybe for a different reason than most of you. First, they are vaccinating for Chicken Pox. This is a bad idea imo. The chicken pox vaccination does not work very well. My wife works at Childrens Hospital in Columbus OH. Vaccinated kids are coming in with the chicken pox all the time. A few of our family members had vaccinated children get the chicken pox. The bad part is that usually those kids who get the chicken pox after being vaccinated do not get a bad case of the chicken pox. At first that seems like a good thing, however, the problem is that if you did not get a strong case of the chicken pox the first time then you can get them again. And if you happen to get them as an adult the disease can kill you. It is much better to just get the chicken pox as a child and build up an immunity to it.

Like all vaccines you need a certain percentage of take-up (80%) before the whole population is protected. In addition Chicken Pox is one of those odd infections that you can catch twice. Unlikely a second time but it is possible. Therefore a low take-up of the vaccine coupled with its re-infection possibility and it would look like the vaccine does not work. But of course lets not get serious here. Personally I quite enjoy the total ignorance on this thread about vaccines and the absolutely insane arrogance that "my kid ain't got that poisin in them and they're good clean kids". Wow brilliant, presumably smallpox just decided to go away on its own. As I was reading the rantings a picture of those people in the film Deliverance popped into my head!

Forced vaccinations are wrong. However, if you choose not to vaccinate and thus put other people at risk then I think those people at risk from you should know about or be protected from you. If that means un vaccinated kids can't go to school then so be it.

Well, looks like people are weak and powerless now.

Government wins.

GG...

reply to post by RogerT


RogerT, I, as a concerned parent, appreciate your efforts in this thread. I can't even believe you have to defend your point of view.

I would say 90% of the parent in the US would side with you, if they knew the facts about the innoculations.

This year, the list had 10 shots for my 6 yr old, include shots for STD. STD?
WTF, she's 6 yrs old for God's sake.

Plus, these shot were going to cost us over $500. They are not free from the school.

When I went to Desert Storm, they pumped me full of every kind of chemical on the planet. Then I hear they were testing certain nerve gasses on some of the troops.

We live in a sadistic world, and it's not going to get better, before it gets worse.

I'm telling folks. Get ready, cause this is going to get ugly.

[edit on 23-11-2007 by stompk]

Forced vaccinations are wrong. However, if you choose not to vaccinate and thus put other people at risk then I think those people at risk from you should know about or be protected from you. If that means un vaccinated kids can't go to school then so be it.

Hate to be rude, but I have to deny ignorance here.

Um, if the damn vaccinations work so good, why would you worry about your vaccinated kid getting sick from my unvaccinated kid?

I think it would be the other way around, because the vaccination basically makes your kid sick, which my kid could catch.

See what I mean?

You guys do realise this is nothing new?

Smallpox was the first disease people tried to prevent by purposely inoculating themselves with other types of infections:

Smallpox inoculation was started in India or China before 200 BC. In 1718, Lady Mary Wortley Montague reported that the Turks have a habit of deliberately inoculating themselves with fluid taken from mild cases of smallpox and she inoculated her own children.

Before Edward Jenner tested the possibility of using the cowpox vaccine as an immunisation for smallpox in humans in 1796 for the first time, at least six people have done the same several years earlier: a person whose identity is unknown, England, (about 1771), Mrs. Sevel, Germany (about 1772), Mr. Jensen, Germany (about 1770), Benjamin Jesty, England, in 1774, Mrs. Rendall, England (about 1782)and Peter Plett, Germany, in 1791. In 1796 Edward Jenner inoculated using cowpox (a mild relative of the deadly smallpox virus). Pasteur and others built on this.

1853 law required universal vaccination against smallpox in England and Wales, with fines levied on people who did not comply. In the United States, the Supreme Court ruled in the 1905 case Jacobson v. Commonwealth of Massachusetts that the state could require individuals to be vaccinated for the common good.

en.wikipedia.org...

I am old enough to have had caught many of these illnesses Measles, Mumps, whooping cough, chicken pox,I sure wouldn't want to put any of my children through it.

I do have issues with some of the newer immunizations, however, like HPV.

Well good morning Chyort

I've got a few minutes, so will respond to your posts. It seems you don't have much interest in learning an alternative view about this topic, but for the sake of others who may wish to, I'd like to counter the misinformation you are posting.

I didn't say I don't think it's credible because it is an "alternative" website. It's not credible because I have no idea where it gets its information from. Again, would you use this on a college paper?

yes, well I did tell you that, and it really doesn't take much effort to LOOK and READ, but if all you are interested in is invalidating the web location of data, then I don't expect you to be that considerate.

I have no idea about this, maybe you could point me in the right direction.

That would surely be another waste of time, given the scant effort you put into my other recommendations.

Although I will say this: If the pharmacutical companies want to make billions, why have vaccinations at all? Why not just sell the more expensive medicine after you get sick?

It's much more lucrative to sell the overpriced and mostly useless vaccines to a captive market which is legislated to buy your product, and then also sell them the overpriced and mostly useless drugs when they still get sick.

I don't see where they used CDC as a source.

Because you didn't look

I could say I've been to places like South America or the Middle East where I've seen what happens to people when they haven't been vaccinated. It doesn't really matter though.

Well are you saying it or aren't you?

I could say that you are lying, or talking out of your rear end? It doesn't really matter though. Even if you have been there in any capacity beyond tourist, how are you so certain that what you are seeing is a result of not vaccinating, rather than a hundred other reasons (sanitation, nutrition, basic health care, clean water)

No, I don't have kids, why that matters I don't know, but I do volunteer at a children's hospital. I'm glad they have recieved their vaccinations.

I asked because parents of vaccinated kids find this information the hardest to swallow, for obvious reasons.

Hehe, I'm sure finding that one website would entail quite a bit of work.

You can patronize me all you like young man
I don't do the work for you, or to compete in a puerile argument, I do it because I care about children and feel passionately that we have had the wool pulled over our eyes for long enough in regard to our health choices.
As you volunteer in a kids hospital, I'm sure you can understand.

Here's part of an article detailing the sucess of the small pox vaccine. Near the bottom is probably the information you are looking for:
Article

Yes I read that, thank you, it's pretty standard stuff and looks conclusive at first glance till you dig a bit deeper into the subject. Did you read the paper that I posted which refutes the claim that smallpox was eradicated by vaccination? The paper you posted doesn't really draw conclusions, it infers them, falsely IMO.

Here's another article from the Idaho journal as a little food for thought:
www.proliberty.com...

Here's one about measles:
Measles

First sentence of this paper:

The annual number of reported measles cases in the United States has declined from between 3 million and 4 million in the prevaccine era to

Originally posted by Chyort
I know this might be surprising, but some good information about vaccinations is not available on the internet. I would recommend visiting a college library and going to the medical section if you want some more information.

Perhaps you could do this for us, as many of us don't live that close to college libraries.

It would be nice to get some compelling evidence, rather than the junk you posted so far.

Originally posted by johnsky
Exercise is also good for you...

should we be setting up exercise camps and arresting anyone who doesn't want to run on a treadmill for 3 hours a day?

OR better yet, lets arrest anyone who is not getting their daily recommended dose of bread, milk, fruit and vegetables!

I was going to post something similar to this. Right on

Come on RogerT, we DON'T CARE if it's proven safe... it's been FORCED on the public.
This is FASCISM!

I totally agree, and you are absolutely right.

However, they are using the old "for the public good" in order to bully and harass people into acceeding.

Some people are even posting in this thread that we should be forced into vaccinations to protect the rest from these deadly diseases. So it matters a great deal about the actual efficacy, usefulness and dangers of the vaccines themselves.

You're doing a great job of pointing out the rights violations and fascism, as are other posters. I thought I'd cover another angle.

Originally posted by Chyort
reply to post by RogerT

 

Wow, a ton of posts while I was making my post. I didn't see those other two posts you made so I'll address them quick:

The measles outbreak in Texas? I don't know where you got that information, but it sounds like the outbreak came from poor areas that had not been vaccinated

I'm sorry, what part of this sentence do you not understand:

We conclude that outbreaks of measles can occur in secondary schools, even when more than 99 percent of the students have been vaccinated and more than 95 percent are immune.

I'll help a little, as it seems you definitely need it.... the words "99 percent of the students have been vaccinated" is the clue

i can't believe you got a star for that!

Originally posted by Chyort
The other post you made, all you did was give me info from another site that is not credible. Whale.to? Are you serious? Have you read their mission statement? C'mon bro, I give you good sources and this is what I get in return?

Then you add some quotes but don't put where you got them from. Are you just taking out little bits and pieces to forward your argument? Why not post the source?

That sounds like intellectual snobbery. May not be, but sure sounds like it.

Look bro', you are certainly not credible, but if you are quoting something from somewhere or someone that is, then I'll listen.

I quoted from individuals who are certainly worthy of a little credibility and gave details of their affiliations etc. It's not that hard to look up, why are you moaning so much?

Originally posted by Chyort
Un-vaccinated world? Well, I guess that the U.S., World Health Organization, and other organizations sending doctors, nurses and voluteers out to vaccinate third world countries never happened.

The amount misinformation, bad information and ignorance of this thread is amazing.

You mean the eugenics programs

Don't go down that route. Try Mbarara main hospital, Uganda, where 600 children died immediately following an oral polio vaccination campaign in 1977. Why do you think they have to bribe and coerce the locals into getting the shots now?

Originally posted by Beachcoma

Originally posted by RogerT
And you are still not listening.

I'm sure he heard you. But he's probably not convinced by your argument, as am I.

Are you unaware of how the immune system works? Or are you simply trying to jam a square peg into a round hole to fit your beliefs?

He may have heard me but he's not listening. Sorry if you don't get the difference, but there is a distinction between hearing and listening. One's active the other passive, one reactive the other proactive.

I'm not unaware of how the immune system works. (surprised you asked the question). Vaccination by injection does not mimmick a natural immune response. Whilst the theory of immunisation is very seductive, the current practice is way off mark IMO. [Bizarrely, the Indians who used to 'snort' smallpox scabs hundreds of years ago were closer to it then our injection methods (IMO), though I think that's unnecessary and there are far more effective ways of protecting oneself.]

I'm not attempting to convince, though it may appear that way.

I'm attempting to provide a little access to alternative information for those that would like it. A wee path to follow. Which means at least a little work with an open mind at the other end.

Challenging a global assumption is not an easy thing to do. Convincing someone who's spent a lifetime being trained to believe certain 'truths' as indisputable, via forum posts.... no I don't think so.

Maybe I can plant a few seeds of doubt and a desire to take a closer look.

Is your mind already made up on the issue?



[edit on 23-11-2007 by RogerT]

Originally posted by malcr
Personally I quite enjoy the total ignorance on this thread about vaccines and the absolutely insane arrogance that "my kid ain't got that poisin in them and they're good clean kids".

How very arrogant of you to say so

As for the total ignorance.. it would be great if you could enlighten us, but the garbage you posted is only clouding an already confusing issue further.

See if you can find some info on Charles Creighton. He was a courageous and outspoken Scot, so you should enjoy that. He challenged Jenner outright though, so you may find that a little difficult. (BTW, for the ignorant chappies, Jenner was the bloke that started it all off, or at least the 'modern' 'dirty needle' version)

Here's one link:

www.reformation.org...

reply to post by stompk


I'm very sorry for what they did to you and others in desert storm.

Thanks for the words of support.

What do you actually think you could do if people did stand up? If the local and state gov have taken the steps to do what they have. With no apparent regard to the people, could you imagine what would happen if groups did riot and protest? I mean since they have total disregard for your liberties anyways, what would stop them from totally crushing you while showing who's really in charge of everything...

Just watch your local or world news, the events that happen everyday in the US, that to normal people (ats members) enrage us, yet the media just brush off as just plain ole everyday incidents.

The constitution referred to by our supreme leader in the usa, is regarded as just a G__ D___M piece of paper anyways. That term was used when talking about Patriot act issues, last year I believe. Sorry folks I don't know how to put up links to things. Just google it, you'll find it. Pretty sad though, I'm just curious where we all will be in a few yrs with a new president. Or if the current administration will remain in power from some terrible unforseen event before the next election.... Elections suspended, martial law, another term. That would SUCK!!! Who knows what the future holds.

MSTKN

point one is that yes, this is a personal rights issue, and as an adult i refute my governments ability to dictate to me choices i make for my own personal lifestyle, whether that be seatbelts, smoking, vaccines, drugs, etc. All of these are my PERSONAL choices as an adult and i will make them as i please with rights given by GOD not man, and not to be rescinded by man.
Now onto the fact that there is a MOUNTAIN of evidence of the dangers and toxicities of mercury and other preservatives (also equally dangerous) in vaccines (benzene, alluminum, etc) which serve no function but to make pharma's huge profits into obscene profits by allowing multi shot bottles (where each patient is charged the whole bottle price even though each bottle is used on 10 patients for some vaccines). In ALL independent unaffiliated studies mercury is a highly dangerous neurotoxin, it destroys brain cells, and causes many systemic disruptions. At the height of thimerosal use, baby's were given doses that exceded safety recomendations by 500X!!! Tracking of autism shows direct corellation with use of vaccines in countries, with China's autism expanding hugely since their beginning of mass vaccines, americas growing autism since the 30's coinciding with their growing use of vaccines, and the amish communites almost total lack of autism except for 2 children, 1 who was adopted from non amish parents and fully vaccinated and 1 who was vaccinated due to special circumstances. I can source this info if you are TRULY interested, but dont bother me about it if you arent willing to learn and just want to point and jeer.
Point being, the whole thimerosal and vaccine debate is similar to the global warming debate. In other countries global warming is accepted, but here where it conflicts with corporate interest it is a "debate" fueled by info mostly produced from corporate studies. In some reviews, studies funded by involved parties favored the parties desired outcomes over 90% of the time, so of course these must all be taken with a grain of salt. The EPA knows how dangerous mercury is and charges thousands of dollars to homes or schools with a small (5mg) spill to do cleanup, insisting areas or rooms be cordoned off and isolated until cleanup, so how is it that our dentists and doctors are lagging so far behind in this? Very similar to the fact that no other countries allow flouridation except america where we have a huge chemical fertilizer industry who needs a good way to dispose of their floride waste without polluting the environment, so they put it in our water and toothpaste and such and tell us its "good" for us. ok, im ramblin know, this is just food for thought, and truly only my opinions on the subject. Thanks to everyone here for your interesting comments as well

Originally posted by RogerT
..
i can't believe you got a star for that!

anyone can get ONE star, iirc

the typical response by people who know the outcome of a 'discussion' such as this one is to cast doubt on a few points, which may or may not have been previously mentioned, while ignoring what they can't or won't try to refute.

vaccine effectiveness and its implications being the prime example (ie. using their train of thought against their line of reasoning and intent).

someone posted a figure of a vaccination rate of 80% before it becomes truely effective. such attempts inevitably lead to a slippery slope, because my next questions will be:

• how did you arrive at that figure? how high is the real threshold - if there is any?
  
• wouldn't a failure rate in the order of double digit percentages warrant individual testing, both, to avoid superflous vaccinations and for further refinement of the vaccines?
  

as you might have noticed, you will be in all probability completely unable to retrieve any tangible data on vaccine's effectiveness, because it is, for all intents and purposes, classified.

[edit on 23.11.2007 by Long Lance]

Originally posted by RogerT
Well good morning Chyort
I've got a few minutes, so will respond to your posts. It seems you don't have much interest in learning an alternative view about this topic, but for the sake of others who may wish to, I'd like to counter the misinformation you are posting.

Good morning to you RogerT. I'll get right into it.

My misinformation? So peer reviewed papers and actual studies are misinformation? I don't know what else I can really give you. I guess I can make my own website and just put down any information I want without giving credible information or citing sources.

I'm trying not to sound condescending the way you sound in most of your posts, but all you give me are websites that no one would use on their college papers. I'll ask you again; would you use these sources on a college paper?

That would surely be another waste of time, given the scant effort you put into my other recommendations.

Ouch, well I've looked at all your sources and have yet to come across anything credible, except your one study on thermosil.

It's much more lucrative to sell the overpriced and mostly useless vaccines to a captive market which is legislated to buy your product, and then also sell them the overpriced and mostly useless drugs when they still get sick.

Ok, well the measles vaccine cost about 80 dollars to get. How much do prescribed drugs cost? I'm sure some people here can tell you they are more than 80 dollars.

Well are you saying it or aren't you?
I could say that you are lying, or talking out of your rear end? It doesn't really matter though. Even if you have been there in any capacity beyond tourist, how are you so certain that what you are seeing is a result of not vaccinating, rather than a hundred other reasons (sanitation, nutrition, basic health care, clean water)

Yes, I went to Iraq as a tourist and to Peru just for fun... Have you ever seen a child that didn't receive a vaccine and now is sick because she didn't get one? You're right, it doesn't really matter.

Here's another article from the Idaho journal as a little food for thought:
www.proliberty.com...

Interesting article, although it seems to quote a lot of old information. It gives a few names but fails to cite where it received its sources. It seems to mention the 1935 Medical Voodoo book quite a lot though. I wonder who the author is of this article is? "Vaccination Liberation."

I don't want to quote everything you said to save room, but you give a graph of the measles vaccination. Well, here's another one, from... the evil CDC...

I'm not sure if your sources deliberately give bad information, or just don't do any research. For example, that graph about the measles you gave me, it says measles mortality. This is only giving me information on how many people died of measles. How about how many people actually contracted measles?

Also, I find it interesting that even on the graph you gave me, after MMR is introduced there is a sharp decrease of measles mortality.

Almost every source you give me obviously has an agenda, which is to say vaccinations are bad and don't work. However, that study you posted about the thermosil; that is what I'm talking about. Of course it's not complete yet, but if you give me more of those sources you will have a strong argument. See I do listen and I can read!

It would be nice to get some compelling evidence, rather than the junk you posted so far.

Well, if you consider my sources junk, I don't know what to tell you.
(cont)