Jehovahs Witness, cult or religion?

reply to post by jmdewey60


"Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit: but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." —Matt. 7:17-18

Sorry, the NWT is an evil fruit PERversion of the Bible. And look what we have today because of Illuminati Mr. Russell:

Millions of people who are convinced Jesus Christ wasn't God made flesh. Millions of people putting their trust in Westcott and Hort. Two Satanists.

Jmdewey60,

What do you have to say about this article?

Please read in it's entirety. Thank you in advance.

www.jesus-is-savior.com...

It's rare time when I use the ignore feature on this site, but I just did.

I just can't stand to read such prejudiced misinformation anymore.

[edit on 28-8-2008 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I read the version you are talking about.
I would take it to church and compare it to the King James version that was normally being read.
I never used it for serious study and mainly carried it because it was a lot smaller than the other ones available for my use.
I came to the same basic idea about the fallacy of the trinity as the JW's have but I did that completely on my own without any influence from anyone.
I have plenty of disagreements with the JW doctrines but not on that point.
They do have this idea of a pre-existence as Michele the Archangel or someone.
My church believes in that too but I totally reject it. That would make me a heretic but I do not care.
Jesus was born and that is it. The Spirit of God came down on him from heaven, like a dove.
Jesus was destined to be, and God helped it come about, for the purpose of bringing salvation to the world.
The Dying God is a pagan concept and there is any number of those to choose from.
Jesus is a created being in order to be the first born of a new creation.
Jesus was the incarnation of God's intent, put into action.
Jesus was born the Son of God because of an indwelling spirit that had been lost to naturally born men, after the fall of Adam.
Jesus was anointed by the Baptist and became Christ.
Jesus died to have sin killed, in his flesh.
Jesus rose to live in the new creation that his work had made.
As the word was with God, at the first creation, Jesus was the word at the new creation.
Jesus was there, with God at the beginning and nothing was made that was not made by him and through him.
By believing and being baptized, we enter into that new creation, as newly made men.


[edit on 28-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I am very critical of what I read in the bible.
I go back and look at what the original language words were and read up on the various uses of the word and if necessary look up some serious commentary on how the meanings are come to, from a translator's view point.
KJ version is a mandatory thing to read because the concordance numbering system is based on it.
I take my Bible reading serious and I am not going to be taken in by little tricks of translation that people have used to make the Bible support their views.
I stopped reading from the NIV because it is not a literal translation but a paraphrase.

LOL!!!


"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

1 John 5:7

www.jesus-is-savior.com...

The 1611 KJV is the ONLY version on the face of the Earth that is derived from Koine Greek.

Did you notice the chart in Green letters in the last link? It appears you never read down that far.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Only the gnostics regard them as accurate. That is why they were put into jars and hid in the Dead Sea caves, it was a crime to have them at the time and virtually all were burned.

You're not going to convince ANYONE that the Coptic versions are true scripture. No wonder you have an erroneous view of Jesus Christ.
...
The Coptic Greek translations are mingled with Buddhist and Hindu influence. That's where the Gnostics get their absurd ideas about Jesus from, the Coptic Greek versions.

I doubt that Coptic translations, mangled as they may or may not be, were the source of their particular heresies; almost all of the Gnostic texts were originally written in Greek. Did the Sahidic NT have anything to do with the Nag Hammadi codices or the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Originally posted by Eleleth

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Only the gnostics regard them as accurate. That is why they were put into jars and hid in the Dead Sea caves, it was a crime to have them at the time and virtually all were burned.

You're not going to convince ANYONE that the Coptic versions are true scripture. No wonder you have an erroneous view of Jesus Christ.
...
The Coptic Greek translations are mingled with Buddhist and Hindu influence. That's where the Gnostics get their absurd ideas about Jesus from, the Coptic Greek versions.

I doubt that Coptic translations, mangled as they may or may not be, were the source of their particular heresies; almost all of the Gnostic texts were originally written in Greek. Did the Sahidic NT have anything to do with the Nag Hammadi codices or the Dead Sea Scrolls?

"Originally written in Greek"

Which Greek? Alexander/Egyptian/Hindu/Buddhist Greek? = Coptic

Or Greek text derived from Antioch? Remember the Antioch believers were the first to be called "Christians". (Acts 11:26)

"A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE AND ITS GREEK TEXT:

I. Believers at Antioch (1st. century)

A. The believers in Antioch were the first to be called "Christians" (Acts 11:26).

B. Since Antioch is in Syria, they translated the Bible into Old Syrian. This Bible agrees with the KJB and not the Catholic line of mss.

C. The believers at Antioch copied the Scriptures in both Syrian and Greek on papyrus (a paper-like material).

II. Believers in Greece (1st.-3rd. century)

A. They used the Greek text of Antioch and rejected the Greek text of Alexandria Egypt as corrupt. (Fuller, p. 194-215).

B. This is the church which departed from Rome and the Catholic church in the 4th century. History shows that the text of the KJB always goes away from the Roman Catholic Church. This being a historical fact, then why go back to Rome to make a new translation?

C. These believers copied Scripture on papyrus in both Greek and Old Latin (not Jerome's Latin Vulgate, but Old Latin). This Bible was translated in 150 A.D. and agrees in its text with the KJB, not the modern translations.

III. Believers in Northern Italy (3rd.-12th century)

A. They copied and used the Old Latin Bible and rejected the vulgate as corrupt.

B. These believers were called "Waldensens" and were known for the evangelism they did and the street preaching.

C. During the Inquisitions by the Catholic church, the Waldensens were the believers who were put to death (see "Foxe's Book of Martyr's")

IV. Believers in Early England and France (2nd.-17th. century)

A. They used the Old Latin Bible of the Waldensens as the official translation. They also copied the Greek text which later came to be called the Receptus.

B. These believers were very evangelistic and suffered much under Rome.

V. Erasmus (1466-1536 A.D.)

A. Erasmus compiled the Greek mss. of the believers in Greece, Italy, England, and France and the Old Syrian and Latin translations to produce the Greek N.T. the Reformers used.

B. Note, this was the Greek text of the Reformation. This line always goes away from Rome.

VI. Luther (16th. century)

A. Luther translated the Bible into German using the text of Erasmus. He rejected the Greek text of the Catholic church (the text modern translations use).

B. Luther was the father of the Reformation.

VII. The King James Bible (1611)

A. The N.T. was translated off the Greek text of the Reformation. The translators rejected Jerome's Vulgate and the Catholic Bible."


AGAIN I'll post this link, seems people don't want to review ALL material sourced, or look at someones ENTIRE argument in this thread.

HERE (2nd time)

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
LOL!!!


"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

1 John 5:7

www.jesus-is-savior.com...

The 1611 KJV is the ONLY version on the face of the Earth that is derived from Koine Greek.

Did you notice the chart in Green letters in the last link? It appears you never read down that far.

This is sad. Are you really unaware of the spurious nature of this?

Please familiarize yourself with some facts about this passage.

the words “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (KJ) found in older translations at 1 John 5:7 are actually spurious additions to the original text.

A footnote in The Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation, says that these words are “not in any of the early Greek MSS [manuscripts], or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulg[ate] itself.”

A Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament, by Bruce Metzger (1975, pp. 716-718), traces in detail the history of the spurious passage. It states that the passage is first found in a treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus, of the fourth century, and that it appears in Old Latin and Vulgate manuscripts of the Scriptures, beginning in the sixth century.

Modern translations as a whole, both Catholic and Protestant, do not include them in the main body of the text, because of recognizing their spurious nature.—RS, NE, NAB.

Regarding this Trinitarian passage, textual critic F. H. A. Scrivener wrote: “We need not hesitate to declare our conviction that the disputed words were not written by St. John: that they were originally brought into Latin copies in Africa from the margin, where they had been placed as a pious and orthodox gloss on ver. 8: that from the Latin they crept into two or three late Greek codices, and thence into the printed Greek text, a place to which they had no rightful claim.”—A Plain Introduction to the Criticism of the New Testament (Cambridge, 1883, third ed.), p. 654.

See also footnote on these verses in JB, and NW appendix, 1984 Reference edition, p. 1580.

I hop you will recognize that your sources are flawed. The pagan trinity doctrine was added by those who had no real respect for Gods word.

The facts prove it. To clarify; This passage was not included in copies dated before the 6th century, except as marginal notes added by the copyists.

I hope you will acknowledge that you have been misled about this.




[edit on 28-8-2008 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
"Originally written in Greek"

Which Greek? Alexander/Egyptian/Hindu/Buddhist Greek? = Coptic

Or Greek text derived from Antioch? Remember the Antioch believers were the first to be called "Christians". (Acts 11:26)

I was referring to the Gnostic apocrypha. Their absurd ideas were concocted by people who read, wrote and thought in Greek; that does not necessarily mean the NT texts they had access to were accurate in one way or the other.

reply to post by Sparky63


lol, i found it ironic too that he should use a fake inserted scripture to show how corrupt the NWT is

LOL

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You can't for a second thing these people did the work of God. They serve satan and have lied to millions of people.

and yet you completely ignored my post showing scripture by scripture that you website you keep quoting from is wrong.

if they are lying... why are they right?

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
You can't for a second thing these people did the work of God. They serve satan and have lied to millions of people.

and yet you completely ignored my post showing scripture by scripture that you website you keep quoting from is wrong.

if they are lying... why are they right?

You quoted from the COPTIC Greek, that's garbage. That came from the Alexandria Egypt area, where they intermingled Hindu and Buddhist ideas. It's trash, the NWT is trash.

Spanky esteems Westcott and Hort, they were Satanists who were heavily involved in the Theosophy Society.

We are to trust the Greek from Satanists???

"No evil tree can produce good fruit..."

You should be deciding whether of not you trust Satanists to bring you "truth", or if you should trust the Greek translation from the sect that Acts calls the first "Christians".

I've posted PLENTY of proof that A: the Coptic Greek translations were deemed heresies, B: I've posted pictures of Mr. Russell's grave which is an Illuminati pyramid, C: I have posted pictures showing their "Watchtower" magazine has Masonic Symbols, D: I have posted the "qualifications" ,*giggle", of the NWT translators, and E: I have linked the qualifications of the 1611 KJV scholars.

If you still want to cling to heretical Greek translations that came from the pagan Egyptian Greek, then what else can I do?? Miriam, you'll have to answer to Jesus Christ on judgment day for this. I pray you'll look at the facts for a minute. Remember, when the rapture happens and your sitting at home hearing about the millions that have disappeared you'll know why.

You are denying the deity of Christ.

"If you deny me before man, I will deny you before my Father in heaven."

Miriam:

Lemme get this straight, you think the NWT is the "best" translation. Even though it was taken from the Greek used by Westcott and Hort???

Lemme remind you about these men:

"This Satanic society used Catholic Church Sources in order to produce its New World Translation. Westcott and Hort were two Satanists, founders of the Hermes Club and members of famed Russian witch Madam Blavatsky's Theosophy cult."

You trust a Bible that was derived from Satanists?????

Westcott and Hort will lead you straight to hell. Their perverted Greek translation has given us the perverted NWT. They got their perverted Greek translation from the Coptic Greek version.

Use your head lady. Nothing that comes from the pits of hell can lead you to God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Spanky esteems Westcott and Hort, they were Satanists who were heavily involved in the Theosophy Society.

We are to trust the Greek from Satanists???

Were still waiting for some credible evidence that these Bible Scholars were Satanists. LOL Are you going to produce some or are you going to be intellectually honest enough to admit that you have none.

And please do not trot out some more drivel like from the Spiritist Barbara Aho who even you denounce.

The discussion as to whether they are a cullt or a religion seems to some to be a numbers game.

As was stated in a previous post JW number their members somewhere around 7 million world wide. But you should keep in mind that this number is only derived from those who are baptized & actively involved in their preaching work. They do not count unbaptized children or infants, or people who do not have a regular share in the ministry.

The attendace at their Annual "Memorial" meeting in 2006 was almost 17 million.



[edit on 29-8-2008 by Sparky63]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Spanky esteems Westcott and Hort, they were Satanists who were heavily involved in the Theosophy Society.

you keep sayign that over and over again, but where is the proof?

"No evil tree can produce good fruit..."

also ironic you should quote this scripture.

lets see, jesus said you could identify his people by love.

- JWs do not join the army. even if it means being sent to prison for years. they are the only religion that does this.

- JWs are known to be honest hard workers. i used to work at a cafe that employed a few. i can attest to this personally.

jws are KNOWN for these things. so if you count them by their fruits, id say they are doing really good. certainly doesnt sound like the evil, secretive, satan worshipping, card carrying commies you seem to think they are.

I've posted PLENTY of proof that A: the Coptic Greek translations were deemed heresies, B: I've posted pictures of Mr. Russell's grave which is an Illuminati pyramid, C: I have posted pictures showing their "Watchtower" magazine has Masonic Symbols,

again i ask, of what use to the illuminati is an organization that doesnt concern itself with politics or war?

D: I have posted the "qualifications" ,*giggle", of the NWT translators, and E: I have linked the qualifications of the 1611 KJV scholars.

again, where is your proof they were the commitee. you posted a site that said they were but it offered no proof.

Miriam, you'll have to answer to Jesus Christ on judgment day for this. I pray you'll look at the facts for a minute. Remember, when the rapture happens and your sitting at home hearing about the millions that have disappeared you'll know why.

the rapture is theological B.S. if you read the bible instead of clinging to dogma, you´d realize this.

You are denying the deity of Christ.

"If you deny me before man, I will deny you before my Father in heaven."

i most certainly am. i would also like to point out that your quote has jesus talking about god in the third person (my father), not first person (me, the father)

just because you dont know how to read doesnt mean the rest of us dont.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Lemme get this straight, you think the NWT is the "best" translation. Even though it was taken from the Greek used by Westcott and Hort???

never heard of them before this thread.

i think the NWT is the best translation because i do lots research into original translations, and i find its the most accurate. thats it, that is opinion based on my own 2 eyes.

but cant understand this can you?

any argument i give on this site i use the KJV, and its the same as if i used the NWT. that fact you also ignore.

the trinity isnt missing from JW teachings because of THEIR bible, its because it isnt in THE bible.

even the list of scriptures you posted from the website, i refuted them all, but you ignore that.

open your eyes, do you research instead of letting others do it for you.

Westcott and Hort will lead you straight to hell. Their perverted Greek translation has given us the perverted NWT. They got their perverted Greek translation from the Coptic Greek version.

Use your head lady. Nothing that comes from the pits of hell can lead you to God.

jesus went to hell, so it cant be all that bad.

Originally posted by never_tell
i think they'd be considered a "sect" of christianity....

Yeah, a bloody bloody annoying one...