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How Does Aluminum Cut Steel?

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posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by SimontheMagus
 


What "standard" is that....

The one used by Firefighters or the one from conspiracy loons





You need to tone down your comments and stop calling people stuff like loons, no one is calling you a loon for buying what you saw on tv, you are entitled to your opinion, and resorting to name calling because peopel do not agree with you is pathetic.

You wont get people to engage with you if you keep churning out playground talk. Grow the f**k up!




posted on Jun, 10 2012 @ 06:52 PM
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Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by SimontheMagus
 



but its only because the whole game is rigged by those with all the power. That includes fire chiefs and police chiefs


So the fire chiefs were "in" on the conspiracy ....?

No evidence - just paranoia

They watched as 343 of their men died ?

You are aware that the chif of department Peter Ganci died at the scene, almost 2 dozen other chiefs from
Battalion chief to Deputy Chief died there too

So were they part of the conspiracy ......?


I thought Callan was saying it was Building 7 that had "movement". My fault. I had too many Margaritas and I got confused because all you OS'ers do nothing but obfuscate.

But as for whoever it was that Silverstein said made that decision to "pull it", they knew it was wired just like Larry knew.... that much is obvious.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 12:50 AM
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Originally posted by kidtwist
The planes should have telescoped, they didnt, the building just swallowed them up, this is not normal!
Looks like thios thread might be a good read.

There was an article published in 2003 in The International Journal of Impact Engineering which describes why and how the wings sliced through the outer columns. Get the .pdf here:
How the Airplane Wing Cut Through the Exterior Columns of the World Trade Center



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 05:49 AM
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Originally posted by SimontheMagus
But as for whoever it was that Silverstein said made that decision to "pull it", they knew it was wired just like Larry knew.... that much is obvious.

Haha "I got drunk and confused but it's your fault".

Congrats Simon. For what it's worth, it was Chief Nigro who made the 'decision to pull'. Do you feel like accusing him of being complicit in murder?

Your position isn't getting much stronger here, but that's because you're labouring under the delusion that 'decision to pull' = decision to blow up a building.

In reality it meant 'pull the firefighting operation'. Larry didn't know that they had already abandoned all attempts to save his building, he just presumed he would be part of the decision making process.

Strange what assumptions will do eh?



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 07:10 AM
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Originally posted by exponent
Congrats Simon. For what it's worth, it was Chief Nigro who made the 'decision to pull'. Do you feel like accusing him of being complicit in murder?
Pulling Building 7 didn't murder anyone, so no.



Your position isn't getting much stronger here, but that's because you're labouring under the delusion that 'decision to pull' = decision to blow up a building.

In reality it meant 'pull the firefighting operation'. Larry didn't know that they had already abandoned all attempts to save his building, he just presumed he would be part of the decision making process.


You're the one labouring under a delusion..... that the "decision to pull" wasn't made long before 911.

According to your logic, the "firefighting operation" was holding the building up. Once they abandoned all hope of putting out those raging infernos on the 7th and 12th floors, miraculously.....

".... we watched the building collapse."

It's a pretty sad commentary on the state of humanity when anybody can be manipulated into believing this crap is all a co-incidence. Nothing entertains me more than a good co-incidence theory.
edit on 11-6-2012 by SimontheMagus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by SimontheMagus
Pulling Building 7 didn't murder anyone, so no.

Depends who you believe. Alex Jones would have you believe that it did, but I don't know if he's backed down on those claims. Even so, we're all agreed WTC7 couldn't be rigged on the scene, and so he would have to be complicit in pre-rigging buildings.

If that happened, and Chief Nigro knew about pre-planted explosives at the WTC and said nothing, I think I would be calling him complicit in the demolition of WTC1+2. Luckily though it didn't happen, WTC7 wasn't 'pulled' and firefighters aren't covering up secret demolitions.


You're the one labouring under a delusion..... that the "decision to pull" wasn't made long before 911.

According to your logic, the "firefighting operation" was holding the building up. Once they abandoned all hope of putting out those raging infernos on the 7th and 12th floors, miraculously.....

".... we watched the building collapse."

It's not a particularly significant miracle that not putting out fires in a building results in a building collapse. Only in some bizarre world where buildings are invulnerable and fires do no damage could this be strange.

There was no 'decision to pull' long before 911, because the person who make the decisions has told us when he made them and why. It's not a question of mystery or miracle, just reading.


It's a pretty sad commentary on the state of humanity when anybody can be manipulated into believing this crap is all a co-incidence. Nothing entertains me more than a good co-incidence theory.
edit on 11-6-2012 by SimontheMagus because: (no reason given)

Yeah I mean what sort of idiot actually reads the accounts of that day or listens to the people who were in charge. We all know that we just need to invent new definitions of words and insist that someone would admit a crime on national TV and somehow his insurers and his workers wouldn't sue the crap out of him for it.

You believe in fantasies, it's as simple as that. I hope you don't find it offensive as it's genuinely true.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 10:44 AM
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Originally posted by exponent
It's not a particularly significant miracle that not putting out fires in a building results in a building collapse. Only in some bizarre world where buildings are invulnerable and fires do no damage could this be strange.


No, but it is a particularly significant miracle that Giuliani was told just before the collapse of the South Tower that it was going to do so, while we all know that the firefighters were confident that they had it under control. That is certainly backed up by the visual evidence of black smoke which indicates an oxygen starved fire. That together with the north tower and foreknowledge of building 7's collapse make three miracles in the same day, that has never been repeated before or since.



You believe in fantasies, it's as simple as that. I hope you don't find it offensive as it's genuinely true.
I find nothing you say offensive, you are just a professional programmed OS'er with all your canned responses lined up like the rest of your tag team buddies. Your constant turd-polishing plus 2 bucks will get me an extra-large coffee at 7-11 and will do little else to change the reality of 911 being an inside job.
edit on 11-6-2012 by SimontheMagus because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-6-2012 by SimontheMagus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 03:36 PM
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reply to post by SimontheMagus
 



No, but it is a particularly significant miracle that Giuliani was told just before the collapse of the South Tower that it was going to do so, while we all know that the firefighters were confident that they had it under control. That is certainly backed up by the visual evidence of black smoke which indicates an oxygen starved fire. That together with the north tower and foreknowledge of building 7's collapse make three miracles in the same day, that has never been repeated before or since


Wow - cant get much delusional than this...........


For one the FDNY did not "have it under control" - The first crew were only just completing the long climb
to the 78 th floor sky lobby. This was the lowest floor of the aircraft impact zone - most the fires were above
them on floors 79-84 which took most of the impact. They did not have time to do anything meaningful

Two - black smoke does not mean "oxygen deprived" - it signals only that the fuel is rich in carbon .

As for warning of the building collapse - an engineer in the building department tols FDNY EMS Chief John
Perugiga that the towers were in danger of collapse. He then relayed this to FDNY Chief Peter Ganci

Unfortunately the South Tower collapsed right after before any action could be taken Even then was too late
to get the crews out before collapse


".."...Again, times are a little fuzzy initially for me. A few minutes later, John came to me and said you need to go find Chief Ganci and relay the following message: that the buildings have been compromised, we need to evacuate, they're going to collapse. I said okay. I went down Vesey Street towards West.

Q. You were by yourself?

A. I was by myself, me and my helmet and my radio. I got to the corner of Vesey and West. I found some EMS vehicles. I think I saw Chief Gombo there. I'm not really sure. I mentioned to the EMS people there, again, not knowing who they were, I said you need to get away from here, the building might collapse, we need to leave this spot. As I was walking towards the Fire command post, I found Steve Mosiello. I said, Steve, where's the boss? I have to give him a message. He said, well, what's the message? I said the buildings are going to collapse; we need to evac everybody out. With a very confused look he said who told you that? I said I was just with John at OEM. OEM says the buildings are going to collapse; we need to get out.

"...it's coming over our radio, get out of the area, the second tower's coming down."

"They're saying the second tower is coming...?"

"Yes, it's about to collapse."

He escorted me over to Chief Ganci. He said, hey, Pete, we got a message that the buildings are going to collapse. His reply was who the # told you that? Then Steve brought me in and with Chief Ganci, Commissioner Feehan, Steve, I believe Chief Turi was initially there, I said, listen, I was just at OEM. The message I was given was that the buildings are going to collapse; we need to get our people out. At that moment, this thunderous, rolling roar came down and that's when the building came down, the first tower came down.

..



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by thedman
Wow - cant get much delusional than this...........


Stay focused on the issues and keep your asinine hallucinogenic assessments of my mental health to yourself....

This will negate the crap you just made up....

Fire Dept Tape Invalidates Key Points Official 911 Story

www.rense.com...
edit on 11-6-2012 by SimontheMagus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 05:33 PM
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reply to post by SimontheMagus
 


Oye vey.

What did thedman just finish saying?


For one the FDNY did not "have it under control" - The first crew were only just completing the long climb
to the 78 th floor sky lobby. This was the lowest floor of the aircraft impact zone - most the fires were above
them on floors 79-84 which took most of the impact.


Your link just shows the exact point he just said: The firefighters had just barely reached the 78th floor, the LOWEST affected floor, which had the least amount of fire and damage. If they had gone up an extra floor or two, they'd have encountered a far worse scene.

Deny Ignorance Simon.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by open mind
It's a good question however the simple answer is:
when it's going 600 mph


I'm not an engineer, but an architect. There are two issues with your answer. One is the alleged speed of the craft. It's been proven the airliners could not reach that velocity at sea level. The other issue is, even if they did, the aluminum is still weaker and the wings would have given way before the steel. The steel columns are attached at both ends, are shorter and have more mass than the wings. The wings are longer, with one attachment point and have less mass than the steel columns. The shearing force would have had a greater effect upon the wings vs that of the steel columns.

I live in NYC. At that time I lived on Staten Island. A friend called me from his car and told me to put on the TV, that a plane hit one of the towers of the WTC. I did so and as we were speaking I saw the second plane hit. It looked not only horrendously spectacular, it looked real. I told him I was going down to the water front because I didn't want to see this happening like a bad B movie. I road my bike down Victory Blvd. which went directly to the water front and had a view of the towers from a crest in the hill leading there. As I reached the intersection and that crest in the hill, a bus full of people and many cars were all stopped in the intersection with their occupants just standing in the street and staring in disbelief. When the first tower fell, I just can't explain the emotion I felt and that of everyone else that was standing there seeing this right before our eyes. It was a day I'll never forget.

That said I was one who believed what I thought I saw. It was such a traumatic event, especially for Staten Island, as many of those that perished were Islanders. Now looking at that event after enough time has passed, and being able to see it with less emotion, in my opinion, what we think we saw, wasn't possible from an engineering standpoint. Those planes would have obviously done sever damage but would have crumpled against the framing of the structure. No doubt in my mind on that.

Link shows the framing of the upper portions of the towers. There's no way a jet liner would have disappeared into the building as it appeared to do so on that fateful day. It would have broken apart into many pieces and especially the wing sections. JMO



edit on 11-6-2012 by Bilk22 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-6-2012 by Bilk22 because: (no reason given)

edit on 11-6-2012 by Bilk22 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 05:47 PM
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reply to post by SimontheMagus
 


And your "evidence" is a 2003 post on a conspiracy website by some fruitcake..........

Somehow I'm not impressed



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 05:55 PM
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Originally posted by GenRadek
Deny Ignorance Simon.


"Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines." - Orio Palmer
Deputy Chief, Battalion 7

Deny ignorance, Radek.

And if you come back with your usual nonsense that the upper floors pulverized 78 floors below them, even if the fires WERE hot enough to weaken the structure to the point of initiating the collapse, you're going to have to prove that this is even possible, which you can't, because it denies the known laws of physics. Contrary to your beliefs, NIST does not have the ability to rewrite those laws.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 06:00 PM
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reply to post by Bilk22
 


Perhaps you may be an architect.. (?)...but, this is incorrect:


It's been proven the airliners could not reach that velocity at sea level.


Not "proven".....it's true that in level flightthose speeds could not be achieved, with the available thrust....but, in a descent with the addition of gravity, acceleration CAN be attained, briefly.....again, gravity can only do so much....either you run out of altitude and hit the ground, or (as in the case of UAL 175) hit an obstruction before there is time for the airplane to decelerate in level flight.


This is also fallacious:


The other issue is, even if they did, the aluminum is still weaker and the wings would have given way before the steel.


Inasmuch as it wasn't the "steel" itself that gave way ---- but, the connections. The inertia and kinetic energy of a massive airliner at those velocities was all that was required.....no, the "aluminum" didn't "cut steel", as in the facade columns.....the bolts and welds that held the various pieces together failed, at impact.

Oh, and BTW....UAL 175 (second impact at WTC) was considerably faster than AAL 11, at impact. UAL 175s hijacker pilot apparently planned a steeper dive, and built up more speed than Atta did, on AAL 11.

American 11 was somewhere around ~400 - 420 knots (460 - 483 MPH)......360 knots is the "Max" airspeed limit, but exceeding that is certainly possible, and full control of the airplane can still be maintained.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by SimontheMagus

Originally posted by GenRadek
Deny Ignorance Simon.


"Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines." - Orio Palmer
Deputy Chief, Battalion 7

Deny ignorance, Radek.

And if you come back with your usual nonsense that the upper floors pulverized 78 floors below them, even if the fires WERE hot enough to weaken the structure to the point of initiating the collapse, you're going to have to prove that this is even possible, which you can't, because it denies the known laws of physics. Contrary to your beliefs, NIST does not have the ability to rewrite those laws.


Yes, where were they? Ah yes, FLOOR 78. Which floors were affected the most? Floors 79-84. Good job in your failure of reading comprehension. The firefighters reached the LOWEST floor affected, which had little flammable materials.

Yes, this looks like two isolated pockets of fire that can be knocked down with two little lines:









By the way, look at where floor 78 is. Look what is happening above floor 78.


Laws of physics? You cannot even grasp a simple sentence and the meaning behind it. How are you suppose to understand the laws of physics, when you cannot even comprehend a simple sentence?



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by PluPerfect
 

I read the linked report above regarding the analysis of the wing impact upon the box construction of the columns. I have to admit it's way more math than I'm capable of getting into. However what was never even addressed is the floor structure which was also impacted. Multiple floor structures in fact were impacted. They would offer even greater resistance to the frontal impact than even the columns would. Clearly parts of the plane would have been rejected by the impact of not only the columns, but also impact with the floor structure yet we saw none of that.

I'm sorry, but the whole thing just doesn't make any sense, even discounting the idea that a novice was able to navigate a sophisticated plane in the manner you suggest when professionals have said it would be virtually impossible even for trained pilots. Something is amiss but you can believe what you wish.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 08:05 PM
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reply to post by SimontheMagus
 



"Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines." - Orio Palmer


78th floor was a skylobby where people change elevators from the high speed express to local elevators
which stop on each floor

The floor was filled with elevator machinery and lined with tile and marble - no carpets or furniture to burn

Also a "line" in FDNY speak means a 2 1/2 in hose which can flow 250-300 gpm, most Fire departments
use a 1 3/4 in

As the General showed the main body of fire was on the floors above them



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by Bilk22
reply to post by PluPerfect
 

However what was never even addressed is the floor structure which was also impacted. Multiple floor structures in fact were impacted. They would offer even greater resistance to the frontal impact than even the columns would. Clearly parts of the plane would have been rejected by the impact of not only the columns, but also impact with the floor structure yet we saw none of that.

I believe the subject of the article was pretty clear: "How the Airplane Wing Cut Through the Exterior Columns of the World Trade Center". Seems pretty relevant to the subject of this thread. If you want to know about the floor structures, perhaps you need to look to another source of info.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by lunarasparagus

Originally posted by Bilk22
reply to post by PluPerfect
 

However what was never even addressed is the floor structure which was also impacted. Multiple floor structures in fact were impacted. They would offer even greater resistance to the frontal impact than even the columns would. Clearly parts of the plane would have been rejected by the impact of not only the columns, but also impact with the floor structure yet we saw none of that.

I believe the subject of the article was pretty clear: "How the Airplane Wing Cut Through the Exterior Columns of the World Trade Center". Seems pretty relevant to the subject of this thread. If you want to know about the floor structures, perhaps you need to look to another source of info.

Sorry wrong answer. They cannot be looked at separately. They're are part of a system just as the wings are part of a system. The columns didn't stand and thus fall on their own. Try again.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 10:30 PM
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reply to post by Bilk22
 


The exterior columns of WTC were made of group of 3 steel columns held together by welded spandrel plates
These "column trees" were bolted together in sections 3 stories tall

The aircraft impact snapped the columns at their weakest points - the welds and bolts connecting them together

Here is a picture of a columns section in the street after being dislodged from the building by the impact

Piece of the aircraft landing gear is embedded in the section








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