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Can you show any real evidence (Not NIST) that proves the planes and fires bought the buildings down?
Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Originally posted by jfj123
So all of a sudden, the NIST is not real evidence even though you have been quoting it as real evidence up to this point ????????????????????????????????
I have been using NIST to prove Disclosed wrong, he thinks it is real evidence. Its fun to use a persons site against them. He can only use NIST becasue most other reports state that the planes and fires did not casue the collapse.
I never stated NIST was real evidence, besides NIST reports are not peer reviewed and NIST is not the main investigator for 9/11.
[edit on 26-11-2007 by ULTIMA1]
Since 1959, the National Research Council (NRC) has assessed the technical merit, relevance, and quality of NIST's (previously NBS's) laboratory programs in the context of NIST's mission. The NRC review by expert panels is independent, technically sophisticated, and extensive, The individual FY 2007 NRC Assessment Reports were published in September 2007.
Originally posted by jfj123
Please edit all NIST related information from your post since you have stated it is not real evidence.
Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Originally posted by jfj123
Please edit all NIST related information from your post since you have stated it is not real evidence.
Ok, when you and Discloed edit the NIST related information from your post and use other facts and evidence to support the official stroy. Since i have proven that NIST changes thier reports or contidicts themselves.
Like first NIST states that the towers pancacked, now they changed thier story again to say it didn't pancake. I wish they would make up there minds.
Also they still cannot tell us the real reason builidng 7 collapsed.
[edit on 27-11-2007 by ULTIMA1]
[edit on 27-11-2007 by ULTIMA1]
Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Ok, when you and Discloed edit the NIST related information from your post and use other facts and evidence to support the official stroy. Since i have proven that NIST changes thier reports or contidicts themselves.
Originally posted by Pilgrum
I feel we have a reasonable amount of good evidence to suggest that aluminium can indeed cut steel if it has sufficient momentum so is there anyone still in denial about that?
Perhaps bash it's way through is more a more accurate statement than 'cut'
[edit on 26/11/2007 by Pilgrum]
The reaction is used for thermite welding, often used to join railroad rails
Thermite was originally used for repair welding in-place thick steel sections such as locomotive axle-frames where the repair can take place without removing the part from its installed location.
Originally posted by Disclosed
Thermite reactions caused by the plane debris (aluminum) that melted from the heat of the fires. The NIST report has already stated that impact (which dislodged fireproofing from key beams) and resulting fires (which melted your aluminum) caused a chain of events (heating/weakening and yes possibly even thermite reactions) which led to the eventual collapse.
Originally posted by Disclosed
Why are you so afraid of the NIST information?
Originally posted by bsbray11
And a related question: when was the last time you initiated a eutectic reaction between iron oxide and aluminum by just melting the aluminum (placing it at only ~650 - 700 C)? I've seen video of people smearing molten aluminum on steel rust, and nothing happens. No one has ever used thermite this way, because it does not work.
Molten aluminum has a 4-digit UN identification number of 9260. When referenced in the ERG it refers to guide 77 for hazards of the material. Guide 77 was an addition to the 1993 version of the ERG. Molten aluminum is the only material that refers to this guide. The guide indicates that the material is above 1300� F, and will react violently with water, which may cause an explosion, and release a flammable gas. The molten material in contact with combustible materials may cause ignition, if the molten material is above the ignition temperature of the combustible material. For example, gasoline has an average ignition temperature of around 800� F. Diesel fuel has an average ignition temperature of around 400� F, depending on the blend, and additives. In an accident gasoline or diesel fuel could be spilled. The molten material could be an ignition source for the gasoline or diesel fuel if it came in contact. When contacting concrete on a roadway, or at a fixed facility, molten materials could cause spalling and small pops. This could cause pieces of concrete to become projectiles. Contact with the skin would cause severe thermal burns. There is no personnel protective clothing that would adequately protect responders from contact with molten materials.
Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Well lets start with some actual facts.
FACT 1. The 9/11 commission report did not agree with or publish all the NIST findings.
FACT 2. The final reports from NIST about the planes and fire causing the collapse totally contridicts all the previous NIST reports that the planes and fires did not casue the collapse. It also contridicts most other reports that the planes and fires did not cause the collaspe.
FACT 3. NIST did not test any steel for explosives or chemicals.
FACT 4. NIST did not recover any steel from WTC builidng 7 for testing.
Originally posted by ULTIMA1
Well you have to understand that there was more then just molten aluminum involved. You had molten aluminum comming into contact with the following material.
Jet Fuel
Magnesium
Titanium
Tungsten
Oxygen tanks.
Originally posted by bsbray11
Can you cite for me the specific passage of NIST that says thermite reactions would be a possibility in this way?
Originally posted by bsbray11
So we know this? Or is this the working assumption?
Originally posted by Disclosed
ACTUAL FACT 2. The NIST reports still say what they have said all along: The plane impacts, and resulting fires, caused a chain of events that led to eventual collapse.
ACTUAL FACT 3. The NIST DID infact test for chemicals. Please refer to wtc.nist.gov... , section E.5 PHYSICAL PROPERTIES. Specifically the lines talking about the chemical analysis and chemistry results. Sounds like chemical test to me...
The tower maintained its stability with the removal of columns in the
exterior walls and core columns representative of aircraft impact and
also after losing columns in the south wall due to fire effects with some
reserve capacity left, indicating that additional weakening or loss of
other structural members is needed to collapse the tower.
The pre-collapse photographic analysis showed that 16 recovered exterior panels were exposed to fire prior to collapse of WTC 1. None of the nine recovered panels from within the fire floors of WTC 2 were observed to have been directly exposed.
NIST developed a method to characterize maximum temperatures experienced by steel members using observations of paint cracking due to thermal expansion. The method can only probe the temperature reached; it cannot distinguish between pre- and post-collapse exposure. More than 170 areas were examined on the perimeter column panels ...
Only three locations had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250 °C.
These areas were:
• WTC 1, east face, floor 98, column 210, inner web,
• WTC 1, east face, floor 92, column 236, inner web,
• WTC 1, north face, floor 98, column 143, floor truss connector
Other forensic evidence indicates that the last example probably occurred in the debris pile after collapse. Annealing studies on recovered steels established the set of time and temperature conditions necessary to alter the steel microstructure. Based on the pre-collapse photographic evidence, the microstructures of steels known to have been exposed to fire were characterized. These microstructures show no evidence of exposure to temperatures above 600 °C for any significant time.
Similar results, i.e., limited exposure if any above 250 °C, were found for two core columns from the fire-affected floors of the towers.
12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."
NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.
The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.
The NIST investigation team has formulated the following chronological sequence of major events leading to the eventual collapse of the towers:
Aircraft impact damaged the perimeter columns, causing redistribution of column loads to adjacent perimeter columns and to the core columns via the hat truss (the steel structure that supported the antenna atop the towers and was connected to the core and perimeter columns).
After breaching the building’s exterior, the aircraft continued to penetrate into the buildings, damaging core columns with redistribution of column loads to other intact core and perimeter columns via the hat truss and floor systems.
The subsequent fires, influenced by the post-impact condition of the fireproofing, weakened columns and floor systems (including those that had been damaged by aircraft impact), triggered additional local failures that ultimately led to column instability.
Final column instability resulted when redistributing loads could not be accommodated any further.
Originally posted by Disclosed I wonder which is right....conspiracy site? actual report?
Originally posted by Disclosed
Aircraft impact damaged the perimeter columns, causing redistribution of column loads to adjacent perimeter columns and to the core columns via the hat truss (the steel structure that supported the antenna atop the towers and was connected to the core and perimeter columns).
The tower maintained its stability with the removal of columns in the
exterior walls and core columns representative of aircraft impact and
also after losing columns in the south wall due to fire effects with some
reserve capacity left, indicating that additional weakening or loss of
other structural members is needed to collapse the tower.
Originally posted by ULTIMA1
But can you prove the site is a conspiracy site. YES or NO?
Also the questions were from NIST , correct? YES or NO?
"A Reply to the National Institute for Standards and Technology's
Answers to Frequently Asked Questions."