Why I try to disprove God.

reply to post by mattifikation


You try to disprove God because something traumatic has happened to you and you blame Him/Them for it.
Maybe you, and others like you, got physically or sexually molested as a kid or something, and you can't handle it, but don't blame God. In fact, God can help, you just have to stop thinking of God as one that wears a long white robe, sports a long white beard and wears nice sandals.

Look, please don't think I am a Bible thumper because I am not, but metaphorically by you embracing science the way you state, is nothing more than you taking a bite from the Tree of Knowledge (of good and evil).

Yes, there a plenty of evangelists out there that give God a bad name, but don't blame God for their actions. They are merely human and it takes an objective person to look past that.

The Bible teaches us to live by the Golden Rule, and whether you believe in God or not, what is wrong with that?

By the way, the tools you mention that are used for control is nothing more than evil (perhaps of grey-reptilian origin) rearing its ugly head.

In my mind this planet is an insane asylum- if "god" was to be watching over us I'm sure he would have lost his lunch at whats going on daily here. People need to step up and be their own gods- Im not saying ditch religion because thats a bold statement I dare not make- I'm saying people need to rely more on themselves than a god that is based on faith and generations of customs and beliefs passed down. There's no right or wrong here- People are born with the ability to believe in what they want- its just sad that we have no real truth or memory of what's really going on. The fact that there is more than 1 religion is a contradiction on religion itself is it not? Whose to say which one is right? Its belief- not fact. But people live their lives around it and it becomes fact in their mind. Spirituality is important, not necessarily prayer or praise. A mind-body connection. I used to be a catholic...went to church, did it all because it was passed down to me from my family. One day I realized to myself that this man-made religion I was believing in wasn't helping me at all. I could accomplish the same by just becoming spiritual in my life (meditating, deep thought). By quieting myself, listening to my own thoughts. Not praising a god that for all I know may not exist or saying a hail mary or our father...I doubt the last thing god wants is praise. He gave us everything we have to live, not live our lives around him. He knows how thankful we are to be alive- its just a shame how many people take it for granted. By now I'm sure I've managed to offend many of you out there and I'm sorry if I have...I can tell you though that since I freed myself from one of the many mass belief's out there- I have felt better, become more spiritual, and frankly feel in-tune to my own life and I couldn't get that from a religious book or going to church...A god must exist- but all we've heard is what has been passed down from PEOPLE not god himself/herself(?). Once again- to those of you who want my neck around a noose- I am sorry but at least I'm happy with my belief...in myself.

I have to say that most people definently have a wrong idea about god. I have so much to say, but its better if ya'll read up on some of the same material i have read up on then we could have a REAL discussion about god and not the usual he said she said crap.

It amazes me how many people deny god after only reading the bible. The bible is good, but i find that most people do not possess the right discernment to really grasp the deep meaning contained within the bible. BTW im a spiritualist, i dont have one religion per se that i cling too.

READ THESE SIR then we can have a civil discussion--
Autobiography of a Yogi- by Paramahansa Yogananda (free online)
The yoga of Christ - by Paramahansa Yogananda
The Bhagavad Gita- Graham M. Schweig translation
The 8 Fold Path - Buddhism, (free online)

Many people have the wrong idea of WHAT god is. He/She is not the big man in the sky watching over us. He/She IS us, pure UNBORN consciousness. God is the unmanifested manifestor of everything. Buddhism doesnt say there is no god. Buddhism says that the last great illusion one must break free from is the illusion of being SEPARATE from god. They call god nirvana/nibbana, and it is a STATE of consiousness. Total freedom from all worldy attachment. But yet one cannot say they are god. Just as a wave cannot say it is the ocean. But yet the ocean is the wave. Get it? We are all like waves and the ocean is god.

PURE unborn Consiousness. The whole universe is full of purpose, science studies the subtle laws at work all around us that make the universe function the way it does. But science will never know the WHY. All the enlightened saints say that this universe exists because consciousness made it so. They say that consciousness is the only thing that lasts forever in this universe, Even when the universe is destroyed consciousness still exists. It is the only thing that cannot be destroyed, matter exists because of consciousness, and consciousness can manipulate matter, but matter cannot manipulate consciousness.

They say that life and death are just illusions, and when you realize that i mean truly realize the truth in that, then you dont have to be enslaved in that illusion anymore. The whole point of life is to "unplug" yourself from the matrix so to speak. But the saints make it clear that most people will take litterally TRILLIONS of incarnations to eventually escape from the illusion.

So just study up, thats all i ask, study within yourself first and foremost of all. God doesnt reveal truth to those who think they have found it already. And if you think that after you die your just nothing, then ill see you in your next incarnation.

excuse me but you have the wrong idea here, when i said i didnt accept god, i meant christian man in the sky with robe, god.

i am certainly open to a different type of god in the form of our conciousness or maybe the earth we live on is god

that is why i am agnostic

Excuse ME, but that is not how you presented your anitthesis. Wish you a great holiday.

reply to post by gravytrain



Nice post! Me and you are and the same wavelength.

Did you happen to catch what I wrote on page 1? I would be interested in what you had to say about it. It's easy for me to see but it's hard for people to understand. It's too difficult to teach these "trapped" people because the illusion/lie is way to powerful for them.

Do you see language as a possible problem? God is merely a word, yet it's held as being sacred. To me the word god is just a "ultimate word" used by people that need to force their beliefs on people they want or need to control. This type of suppression works on all classes and in most societies.

reply to post by Alxandro


Well, actually, no, I was never traumatized by anything. Especially rape or molestation or anything like that. I'm sure that's what causes many people to become atheists, and in those cases I think it's more of a "Fine, I won't play your game" than a "Wow, I really don't believe in that anymore" type of deal.

---

I believe somebody asked me what I believed my consciousness was before I was born. Well, I don't believe I had one. After all, I didn't have a brain (Still don't, according to a few people... haha.) Can I prove that? Not definitively. However, overwhelming evidence indicates that thought, memory, and emotion are created and controlled in the brain, which seems to indicate that before people have brains they have none of that stuff.

So yes, I actually believe consciousness springs up "out of nothing," although the scientific process is slightly more complicated than that.

---

And people have mentioned meditating and finding God. I disagree with that entirely. First of all, meditating is just a way to relax. What you, Jesus, Buddha, Muhammad, and all the rest daydream about during their meditation, and what inner peace those daydreams bring, have no bearing on the real, provable physical world.

Proof of that lies in the fact that all these people discovered different "truths" which contradict one another quite sharply in the details. Only one can be true, and since all this meditation reveals many "truths" it stands to reason that it does not reveal the truth at all.

Originally posted by jpm1602
No, that DOES depress me. Ok, I know this is 'totally' subjective, but what about NDE's? Thousands of people reporting hovering over themselves watching the action as they near death? I HAVE to believe there exists an eternity! I must. If others don't, that's also fine by me. Just don't force down my throat a non belief that I cannot, nor can anyone else can disprove. I guess that's why they call it 'faith'.

This has been brought up so many times.
Science can recreate these NDE's.
Even if they were real, it doesn't prove anything, no more than a dream.

Originally posted by gravytrain
Let me throw this question out there for all you athiests. What were you before you were born? Where was your consciousness then? Did it just spring up out of nothing you believe? HAHAHAHA give me one shred of proof that consciousness just springs up out of nothing. You can deny god its all up to you, youll just be born again and again in this physical world. If thats what you want then go right ahead its your life.

So just because it didn't 'spring' out of nothing, it must be god right? I thought society has advanced past that stage. Guess i was wrong. Now give me one shred of proof god exists. Any at all. I mean ANY...

[edit on 21-11-2007 by AncientVoid]

dit.....I really need out of this conversation or I'll be in trouble again. See you all in heaven every thanksgiving. God Bless, cranberries and pumpkin pie. Nite Nite

[edit on 21-11-2007 by jpm1602]

[edit on 21-11-2007 by jpm1602]

[edit on 21-11-2007 by jpm1602]

Originally posted by mattifikation
I often read comments from Christians along the lines of, "Why are atheists always trying to disprove God to us?" Especially ironic are the ones that say this in threads where Christians are trying to disprove creationism, or where Christians are claiming they have proof that God is real. I would like to explain my answer to that question, but first, let me explain the events and circumstances that lead me to this answer.

You talk like Christians are bad or something, and the word faith means that you do not need proof to believe in something. If there are Christians that say they can prove god exist or look for physical poof of his work then they lack in faith.

I once believed in God. I believed because I was told to, and Christians all around me threatened that I would go to Hell if I did not. Fortunately I came to see that all religions threaten some sort of punishment for disobedience. I thought to myself, "Surely these punishments can't all be true. If I do not follow this religion, I die and go to Hell, but if I do not follow that religion, I can never find inner peace?"

Maybe there is a bigger picture to having faith in a creator and we humans are just screwing it up?

I always thought if you just believe in Jesus as your savior then you are a Christian, kind of simple. Then if you really do believe then you would try to live a good life too, another simple thing.

And from there, I became interested in history and social studies. I started paying attention to the wars in the Middle East. Documented accounts of religious wars caught my interest. I learned about witch burnings, crusades, terrorist attacks, and genocides. But I did not blame religion for this, not at first. I blamed the people leading the masses.

But then I came to realize that those leaders needed tools. People do not do what they are told just for the sake of obedience. Tools are required to control them, and religion was the greatest tool of all for that purpose. Take a carpenter's tools and he can only make a pile of wood. So perhaps if we could take the tools away from warlords and imperialists, we can make a peaceful society?

I got a simple question since you are a scholar of history. What has generated the greatest suffering and death religious or non-religious base doctrine?

I’ll give you a hint…

Top one is Communism at about 150 million with about 60 to 75 million in China alone and 20 million with just Stalin in Russia to get two big chunks of it.

It is rather interesting to research genocide based on religion and non-religion influences.

We cannot advance civilization when every time we discover a new advancement, we have to bicker with the Christians about whether or not some 2000 year old book says its acceptable. Stem cell research could save millions of lives (and no, it does not require aborted fetuses.) Cloning and genetic manipulation of livestock could put food on the tables of billions. That is what concerns us, but Christians just get mad that we want to "play God."

Religion or no religion this all starts to hit one’s morals too, and in many cases where do we stop based on only morality? Is it ok for a girl to get pregnant to just sell the fetus? Is it ok to grow/clone test tube humans for body parts?

We need only drop our religious crutches and stop being afraid to stand on our own feet. Then, we can learn to run free.

You know if you read most religious books like the New Testament it is not about pain and suffering. You are right in one thing and that is people use tools to influence people and religion is one of them. When it is used in this way it is no longer religion, but some kind of manmade corruption of religion. As history shows, the worst events were based on non-religious tools, but it really doesn’t matter for even if we got rid of them all in some magical way there would be totally new ones invented and used for the use of some sick evil person or group.

The key here is if someone kills a person for God it really isn’t for God, but for man. When someone blows themselves up for their God they actually did it for a man, because God didn’t tell them to do it, but a man did.

Stalin killed 20 million for himself.

The church killed 1.1 million in the crusades for themselves with god not really part of it other than that of corrupted motivation, and as we look at these tools, religion is but one of many, and way down the list of the worst.

We do not need to look any farther than the mirror to find what causes all the evil in the world, but at least with religion there is also a good side to it too.


[edit on 21-11-2007 by Xtrozero]

Have people notice the tend how the less religion or churches is in control of this world the better off we are? Lucky the world isn't controlled by the churches or we're screwed...

reply to post by mattifikation
I'm so glad I didn't attend the same church you did. You have been fed a line of BS for sure.

I was taught that our God, higher power or what ever you wish to call it, loves me and wants me to enjoy all He created and to have the desires of my heart. Thankfully I was taught it is a sin to kill. If it were not for my faith I would be a very evil being. I would kill, steal, and stay high as a Georgia pine.

It's worked out good for me as I retired early with more toys than I can shake a stick at. I have everything I want or need.

Believing in God has not slowed me down one second. It has actually extended my life as I would be dead or in prison without my faith.

Now I must get back to cooking as my family is going to open my daughters restaurant to the poor, needy, lonely and the less fortunate folks tomorrow for a free Thanksgiving dinner. Our God has been good to us and we are Thankful so we will share our blessings.

I'm sure I'll get flamed by ATS members but I will step right up and tell you that I will pray for you to find peace and enlightenment.

To go deeper:

We(our consciousness) are literally forced inside our egos. This ego is not developed or forced inside us by "God", but by other human beings. Human beings do this so they can contain and control other human beings to not only think like them, but to follow and OBEY them.

Your ego is forced to comform with other people in the system/matrix controlled by ONE person(s) that tells you what/how you should believe. This ONE person(s) can be a family member(s), a preacher(s), a "very good" friend(s), or a person(s) that existed 100's or even thousands of years ago.

Your ego is quickly developed at a very young age and gets reinforced day after day, year after year.

Your ego is a representation of your personality in the now. Your personality can change hence your ego can and will change in certain circumstances. Your sense of self(ego) is constantly being challenged which is why most fight to hold onto self(ego) at all costs because they believe their ego is what makes them, them. This can be good sometimes if the ego is open to change(uncomfortable change that could cause death or psychosis). But most all the time throughout history, people succumb to the ego because they didn't have the ability, or were just too weak, to fight the ego(the ego forced upon them by "authority", the ones that control things).

Oh Geez! I just realized that this can be very confusing and am never going to write a thesis here on ATS.

Bottom line is this. The ego wants to believe in a "god" because the ego is a manifestation of other people's "reality". Your ego has nothing to do with god but everything to do with weaker mortals quest to control minds to force you(the ego) to follow them.

reply to post by Xtrozero


That post really did make me think.

Really, all I have to say about your post at this time is that communism is generally seen for what it is: the policy of choice for dictatorships. Religion on the other hand is considered "good." i admit that it has helped people on an individual level, but on the wider scale it tends to be harmful.

It's just too late for me to give a more thought-out reply than that. So I think I'll go get some sleep. However, I'd like to leave everyone with a reminder of how religious institutions use God to control people this very day.

In 2004, we in the United States had the opportunity to remove from power one of the most dangerous men that has ever controlled it. This man has waged a preemptive war, helped ruin an economy which the entire world is tied to, pulled out of treaties that helped end the cold war, and shunned the idea of environmental conservation any time it's come into conflict with the interests of his megamillionaire and billionaire friends.

Despite his horrible leadership, divisive policies, greedy actions, and violent orders he was able to gain reelection. How did he do it? He allied himself with your churches and threatened you with the idea that gay people would get married.

Millions of disenchanted Republican voters stuck with their candidate not because they liked him... but because they were shepherded into upholding their religious belief that homosexuality is evil.

Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi deaths later, the U.S. is a world villain and we're on the brink of a new Cold War... but that's better than Jim and Joe getting hitched, according to the puppets of religion.

Anyone who wishes to discuss this hypothesis of mine, feel free, but try to keep it on the lines of religious control and not politics. :-)

[edit on 22-11-2007 by mattifikation]

reply to post by dizziedame


Er... I was going to bed, but I think I'll address this post. It kind of scares me. It gives me the impression that you believe that if you weren't afraid of God, you'd be a terrible person. I don't really know you, but somehow I get the impression that you owe yourself more credit than that.

I tend not to do terrible things to myself and to other people because I don't want to... the desire isn't there.

Your scenario is a prime example of what I meant when I was discussing the manufactured "sin" of pride. It looks like your religion has taught you that you are not the reason you are a good person. Rather than being proud of the fact that you made a nice life for yourself, you give all the credit to God because religion scared you into staying in line. But God didn't do your hard work for you, you did it yourself. God didn't take over your mind and force you into making the choices you did... you made them yourself.

But for you to ever be proud of that would be a sin, so you thank God instead of yourself... and you become further ensnared by religion.

Originally posted by Alxandro
You try to disprove God because something traumatic has happened to you and you blame Him/Them for it.

oh the common myth about atheists.
counterpoint: can't blame something we don't believe in
counterpoint2: i have no trauma in my life, yet i'm an atheist.

Maybe you, and others like you, got physically or sexually molested as a kid or something, and you can't handle it, but don't blame God. In fact, God can help, you just have to stop thinking of God as one that wears a long white robe, sports a long white beard and wears nice sandals.

yeah, this is just ignorance

The Bible teaches us to live by the Golden Rule, and whether you believe in God or not, what is wrong with that?

if you've read the bible, you'd realize there's some conflict on that whole "live by the golden rule" thing as god really doesn't treat others how god would want to be treated..

Originally posted by greeneyedleo
I also believe science and believe God created the minds involved in science. There are many scientists who are creationists too.

One does not void of the other.

well..science actually does void creationism as it explicitly shows that creationism is a load of malarkey.
you see, the true scientists that believe in creationism think of things like this "i see that all the evidence and that it points to evolution, but i'm going with creationism because that's what i believe in"
this is an explicit denial of reality, and thus insanity.

Originally posted by Nohup

Originally posted by jpm1602
Get your point nohup. I guess I was going along the lines of each of us having a continuing conciousness, in what ever form, or whatever place.

No, that's not going to happen. Ever been anesthetized for surgery? You lose consciousness, you wake up hours later with no memory of anything happening to you in the meantime, and no sense of time passing. That unconscious part is what happens when you die, except that it goes on forever, and you don't ever wake up. It's one of those things that neither good nor bad, it's just what it is. Like gravity. No need to feel depressed about it.

Thats just odd, for a start, when knocked out for surgery you are not dead, so it proves nothing what happens beyond the mortal coil, secondly I could point out that I dream when asleep, is that some sort of proof of the afterlife?

The spirit lives on, the Word is there, wisdom given, occasional glimpses, but never fully understanding

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

well..science actually does void creationism as it explicitly shows that creationism is a load of malarkey.
you see, the true scientists that believe in creationism think of things like this "i see that all the evidence and that it points to evolution, but i'm going with creationism because that's what i believe in"
this is an explicit denial of reality, and thus insanity.

It does not void it, the creation story of Genesis, was never interpreted as a literal meaning, any literalism is a recent phenomenon.

The original religious scholars and exegetes knew that it was the Word for babies so to speak, clearly a book now which laid out EXACTLY in sheer scientific terms as our brain can comprehend them, would not even be possible, never mind to some goat herders several thousand years ago.

Like any sage follower you would not seek a static historical literal meaning of a biblical narrative, you look for it's deep philosophical principle.

yep we're babies....naughty little kids.

Originally posted by dave7
yep we're babies....naughty little kids.

in terms of ever understanding the cosmos etc, babies is probably being kind, ants maybe?