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Why I try to disprove God.

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posted on Nov, 19 2007 @ 03:30 PM
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I often read comments from Christians along the lines of, "Why are atheists always trying to disprove God to us?" Especially ironic are the ones that say this in threads where Christians are trying to disprove creationism, or where Christians are claiming they have proof that God is real. I would like to explain my answer to that question, but first, let me explain the events and circumstances that lead me to this answer.

I once believed in God. I believed because I was told to, and Christians all around me threatened that I would go to Hell if I did not. Fortunately I came to see that all religions threaten some sort of punishment for disobedience. I thought to myself, "Surely these punishments can't all be true. If I do not follow this religion, I die and go to Hell, but if I do not follow that religion, I can never find inner peace?"

Right about the same point in my life, I began to enjoy my science classes in school. It was an eye-opening experience for me. All those religions taught punishment for disobedience and disbelief, but here was a system that just said, "Here's our theory. Take it or leave it." And what's more, science offered substantiated proof of its claims! Religions all just say, "Take our word for it, or suffer forever!" It was then that I realized that I was an atheist.

And from there, I became interested in history and social studies. I started paying attention to the wars in the Middle East. Documented accounts of religious wars caught my interest. I learned about witch burnings, crusades, terrorist attacks, and genocides. But I did not blame religion for this, not at first. I blamed the people leading the masses.

But then I came to realize that those leaders needed tools. People do not do what they are told just for the sake of obedience. Tools are required to control them, and religion was the greatest tool of all for that purpose. Take a carpenter's tools and he can only make a pile of wood. So perhaps if we could take the tools away from warlords and imperialists, we can make a peaceful society?

The clerics use religion to dictate what we do. They use our own fear and self-doubt to keep us in line with their religions. Anything which contradicts their teachings must be silenced or destroyed. They do not wish us to find our own way if they can only profit from people who follow their way.

So it comes to this: I try to prove God to be false because religion holds the world back. I have three points to discuss on this. First, some of us wish to advance our civilization and physical well-being through science. Second, some of us believe that we hold the keys to success within our own minds. And finally, some of us desire a world of peace and prosperity and we see religion as a tool to destroy that.

We cannot advance civilization when every time we discover a new advancement, we have to bicker with the Christians about whether or not some 2000 year old book says its acceptable. Stem cell research could save millions of lives (and no, it does not require aborted fetuses.) Cloning and genetic manipulation of livestock could put food on the tables of billions. That is what concerns us, but Christians just get mad that we want to "play God."

It is offensive when you tell us not to have pride in what we do, because pride is a sin. And it is even more offensive when you tell us we can't do anything on our own, and that we are so incompetent we can't even exist by our own effort. Christians would have us believe that God is responsible for our accomplishments, which is an insult to those of us who know better. God did not give us a rocket that took us to outer space, we built it and went there ourselves.

There are those in this world who would create religions for us, and use them to manipulate us into waging war against their enemies and serving as their slaves. Religion is merely a tool used by calculating, vile rulers to dupe peaceful people into serving a violent cause. I will agree that those rulers are the root cause of the violence. However, without their tools they wouldn't have the power to wreak their havoc.

Mankind needs to realize that we are not sheep, we can be our own shepherds. For now, we limp along on the crutches of religion and barely move forward. These crutches are built for us by evil people who profit off of our self-induced handicaps. We need only drop our religious crutches and stop being afraid to stand on our own feet. Then, we can learn to run free.




posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 03:23 PM
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reply to post by mattifikation
 


using other peoples religious failings as a crutch to convince yourself that your o.k. to believe there can be no G-D-------------what good does it do you to even think of bothering to accomplish anything in this life because no matter how great others would think you are or how much of a failure others might think you are we all get to die anyway ?---------so the one that dies with the most toys wins ?????? when it comes dying time its usually the same old song thats sung dr. dr. can you save me/them?the hope of a christian is to live again------the thought of death forever should get us all up off our behinds to seek after G-D------notice i said G-D forget most churches-----they are not G-D.1 cor.15:19 if we have hope in Messiah in this life only we are of all men most to be pitied------------21 by man(adam) came death by a man(Messiah)came the resurrection of the dead.seek after G-D the best you know how and Messiah promises you to be resurrected from death.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 03:32 PM
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So, why just not practice religion? I am not really a practitioner of any religion, but I believe in God.. I really don't understand how you jumped from being against religion to trying to disprove the existence of God. Interesting post, nonetheless.

[edit on 21-11-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 03:38 PM
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Originally posted by mattifikation


I once believed in God. I believed because I was told to, and Christians all around me threatened that I would go to Hell if I did not. Fortunately I came to see that all religions threaten some sort of punishment for disobedience. I thought to myself, "Surely these punishments can't all be true. If I do not follow this religion, I die and go to Hell, but if I do not follow that religion, I can never find inner peace?"



I love this paragraph, pure genius

you have some very good points, but...

i just wanted to clear something up, when you used the metaphor for religion as the carpenters tools i think that it was the wrong type of metaphor.

i dont think religion is necissarily bad, i think the people who control religion is. for example religion is the tool right, well a killer can use a gun as his tool, just because he doesnt have a gun doesnt mean he cant kill some one, so in effect the gun isnt bad the person pulling the trigger is. Srry to go against your argument but i thought i could provide a better one.

another thing is that if people are stupid enough to be sucked in by religion then they dont deserve the option of knowing the truth, people like you and i who were recently christian and have seen the truth on our own, were smart enough to deny god, perhaps we should be the Gods



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 03:38 PM
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I find it very depressing to think that ones organic vessel goes in a hole in a cold hole in the ground and that's it. Game over. Much rather prefer to think there's a great hunting/dog walking park in the sky.

OP, I don't think it is necessary to belong to any religion, sit in a box every week to still believe in God. God is all about us. IMHO.
As Ben Franklin said "beer is proof that God loves us". LOL

[edit on 21-11-2007 by jpm1602]

[edit on 21-11-2007 by jpm1602]



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 04:21 PM
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As soon as someone comes up with a decent description of "God," then I'll worry about disproving it. However, most definitions of God are self-disproving as they contain obvious and irreconcilable paradoxes and contradictions. I can't disprove what can't be defined, nor would I want to.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by jpm1602
I find it very depressing to think that ones organic vessel goes in a hole in a cold hole in the ground and that's it. Game over.


No, we're an organism that is part of a continuing experiment by our DNA to continue to replicate itself in a variety of environments. Even if we don't procreate, we were still part of the experiment, which stretches all the way back to the first little bacteria swimming around in the water all the way up to all the organisms and people living on the planet today. You've been part of a billion year project that is still continuing, and have had a perhaps small but nonetheless vital part in that playing out. On behalf of all living things, past, present and future, thanks you for your participation.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 04:40 PM
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Get your point nohup. I guess I was going along the lines of each of us having a continuing conciousness, in what ever form, or whatever place.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by jpm1602
Get your point nohup. I guess I was going along the lines of each of us having a continuing conciousness, in what ever form, or whatever place.


No, that's not going to happen. Ever been anesthetized for surgery? You lose consciousness, you wake up hours later with no memory of anything happening to you in the meantime, and no sense of time passing. That unconscious part is what happens when you die, except that it goes on forever, and you don't ever wake up. It's one of those things that neither good nor bad, it's just what it is. Like gravity. No need to feel depressed about it.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 05:00 PM
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No, that DOES depress me. Ok, I know this is 'totally' subjective, but what about NDE's? Thousands of people reporting hovering over themselves watching the action as they near death? I HAVE to believe there exists an eternity! I must. If others don't, that's also fine by me. Just don't force down my throat a non belief that I cannot, nor can anyone else can disprove. I guess that's why they call it 'faith'.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by jpm1602
No, that DOES depress me. Ok, I know this is 'totally' subjective, but what about NDE's? Thousands of people reporting hovering over themselves watching the action as they near death?


"Near" death is the key. None of these folks ever died for several days and came back to tell the tale. Maybe there's some weird way for a living body to project its consciousness outside of the body. But even then, they still have a body. Once that body is really dead for good, there's no indication that any kind of consciousness survives.

Anyway, it might be a good thing to remember that you're still alive right now, and you should do the most to enjoy the things you can while you're around. It won't amount to anything once you're gone, but nothing will. Rather than being depressed, you should recognize just how fleeting this whole thing is, and cherish it and love it. The price of love is death, of course. But you're on a deferred payment plan.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 05:30 PM
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Ok that's it then. I'm having a drink. I'll just be some 6'1'' fossil found in bedrock 10,000 years from now. Sigh. I respect your points and vision, I just hope there is a hereafter for us all. Peace, out.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 05:46 PM
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God gave you free will, do what you want, believe or dont, but I dont believe in the tooth fairy or santa but im not gonna waste my time trying to disprove it to the world so generations of children can be free a thinking the world is full of free handouts...

While you are at it, if we killed all the diseased, the mentally deficient, and the weak we could strive forward at an even more rapid pace. They are just poisoning the genepool. Why drag ourselves down by supporting those who cant support themselves? Lets burn off the leeches and grasp our future. Lets not pretend that someones belief in God is the only thing holding us back when there are so many others that are keeping us in place. You can really make your case out of anything if you put your mind to it. Next come the religeous book burnings, then comes the hunting down of believers in the name of progress, Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus wiped out, murdered so man doesnt have to have a moral compass and can assume his glorious destiny. I've seen this movie before.. lets drag the master race out one more time for craps and giggles.

As for cloned beef, altered grains etc. You really need to see how the rest of the world looks at that, we have countries turning our gentically enhanced food down outa fear lol.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by Darkweave
While you are at it, if we killed all the diseased, the mentally deficient, and the weak we could strive forward at an even more rapid pace. They are just poisoning the genepool. Why drag ourselves down by supporting those who cant support themselves?


Well, even the diseased, mentally deficient and weak are necessary in the gene pool. Say you wanted to kill of all homosexuals. What if ten years from now we get hit with a virus that kills off all heterosexuals? There would still be enough homosexuals breeding (yes, they do, contrary to popular opinion), to get the human race through that pandemic. Same way with any variation of humanity. They're there because DNA will try anything, and keep reserves of mutants on hand just in case something bad happens to the majority of "average" people.

Besides, anybody who's raised dogs knows purebreeds are generally the weakest and dumbest. Mutts are tough and smart. We need to keep the mutts around.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 06:10 PM
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To look at this world and others along with the universe and say I don't believe in God is crazy. I don't believe in man's perception of God but in the nature of God. One thing that will always be true is your free will. You can believe and disbelieve in anything you want. If you think you die and go to heaven then think that. If you think you die and go to hell then go! It doesn't matter to me what anyone believes. What matters to me is how you live your life and treat your fellow humans. If I relied on God to help me along the way then I wouldn't be a true human being. People pray to God when they're happy and thank him. They pray to him when they're sad and ask him to make things better. But when you do that you're denying your own responsibilty to make things better or worse. I say rely on yourself and make the best decisions you can. I thank God for me being here in this awesome universe. Everything else I have to do.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 07:50 PM
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Well, I don't personally feel like I need an afterlife to avoid depression. I'm not sure why anyone would. It's really all about your perspective... Ok, so once you die, it's over. That can seem depressing to some but I see it as motivation.

I might die tomorrow. Once that happens, I've used up all my chances to enjoy life.

I guess you could say that instead of hoping to have some afterlife to enjoy, I hope that I'll be able to enjoy the life I've got right now. The average person has over 70 years of life to enjoy, that's plenty for me!

---

I'm afraid I don't understand the concept of believing in God but not being religious. Religion is where you get your information about God, and I believe that organized Christianity invented God for their own purposes. I suppose though that just believing in God won't put you under "their" mind control, but still, I just don't believe in Him or see how it's healthy to do so.

I hope I'm not offending anyone here, I'm not trying to, and I try not to be one of those "believe me or else!" people. I'm just taking a little corner of the Internet here to tell people how I feel, and why. :-)

I suppose I should add one thing: I know I'll probably never change anyone's mind on the subject, but if I can get at least one person to question what they're told and to live their own lives instead of the lives they're told to live, then I've helped somebody.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 08:26 PM
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Let me throw this question out there for all you athiests. What were you before you were born? Where was your consciousness then? Did it just spring up out of nothing you believe? HAHAHAHA give me one shred of proof that consciousness just springs up out of nothing. You can deny god its all up to you, youll just be born again and again in this physical world. If thats what you want then go right ahead its your life.

This world is but a dream of gods. We cant really discover anything new, all we can do is rearrange whats already there. Scientists are flawed in thinking they can understand the true nature of anything, yes ANYTHING with just the methods of 3rd person investigation currently being the only methodology employed by science. EVERYTHING we observe is filtered through consciousness, therefore one MUST take into account ones own mind in order to fully grasp any phenomena in the physical observable world.

Its not the scientists who are going to understand reality, the god-realized masters already have. Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, countless other yogi's, avatar's and bohidsattva's. They have mastered theyre own selves, and thus have mastered and understood all of reality because all of reality exists within the mind.

But this world needs people to reject the teachings, this dream of god needs villans and hero's. If you play the part of the villan however then you will have to suffer the villans punishment. No there is no eternal hell, thats just scare tactics. You could call an eternity of neverending births and deaths hell i suppose..but there is no hell like most people would tell you. We are all a part of god, how could god condemn a part of himself for eternity? Like gold covered by coal remains pure gold, so do our souls covered in sin remain pure souls. You just gotta chip all that sin off.

You make me laugh, you sit and study a little science and you have a big enough ego to actually say that god doesnt exist. Who are you to make such a baseless claim with nothing whatsoever to back it up. Study religion a little bit, and study science a little bit more, maybe meditate for an hour each day, and then stick yourself in the oven and turn it on broil. Cause if there is no point to life besides to round up a bunch of toys before you loose everything when you die, and if your consciousness is just a product of your brain cells, and if you cease to exist completly at the moment of death, then whats the point of living? Your going to loose everything and not remember anything and it will be like you never existed at all when you die.

NOBODY who has thouroughly meditated, and with discernment observed the world without ego has EVER said that there is no god. There answer is a loud resounding YES THIER IS A GOD and HE HAS A PLAN AND IT IS BEAUTIFUL. Who do you believe? Masters of the mind who have changed the world? or some guy who is taking a few science courses who thinks he knows everything?? You decide


WAKE UP



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 08:34 PM
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well ill tell you what i was before i was born - sperm. Jeez i thought they taught this in school.

and anyway your religion has pushed the existence of god upon us, without giving us a choice so i say give me a real argument, not the normal "you will go to hell, science is evil, go to church and pay your taxes"

and if your labelling us villians, then hell ya, ill be bad, besides its funner to fight against an all powerful god than a weak bunch of nonbelieving humans.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 08:48 PM
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The problem is the word God, it's too vague and ambiguous. I've tried to convey this in another post, but didn't really get much of a response.

"God" means different things to different people. So when someone says "I believe in god", I really don't know what they are talking about(unless they are christian because they, in general, have no concept behind the meaning of the word "God"). Christians have been deeply confused since their inception, so they have been constantly are going round and round in a circle of lies and deceit for generation after generation.

One must break the cycle of lies in order to understand the deeper meaning behind the meaning of the word "God". I have basic knowledge of the religion of Buddhism, but from what I understand of it, it definitely(IMHO) is the most enlightened religion to date. They don't believe in "God" per se, because to say that they did wouldn't make any sense to an enlightened soul.

An enlightened person is an awake person or soul that lives in, or is traveling towards the light, the source, or truth. The word "God" has no meaning unless you want to obtain power and control over unenlightened individuals for your own self serving purposes. A person that uses manipulation and control is not an enlightened individual, so why do these "christians" follow these people?

I broke free from "the matrix" long ago and the more I travel through this journey called life, the more I understand the scam that these people have fallen for. But I will give them some slack because the system/"matrix"/the lie, is a bitch to get through. You really have to be at the right place at the right time in order to see through the BS and be able to be highly functionable in "the matrix" at the same time.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 08:48 PM
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Well, it is very possible to have FAITH in God and believe in science too.

I have faith in God - but not in man preaching about God.

I also believe science and believe God created the minds involved in science. There are many scientists who are creationists too.

One does not void of the other.

[edit on 22-11-2007 by greeneyedleo]




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