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Japan hunting protected humpback whales!!!

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posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 06:12 PM
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reply to post by West Coast
 


I didn't take it out of context. I saw it exactly as it is -- a case of the pot calling the kettle black. At any rate, IAF101 worded it better than I did.




posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by IAF101
reply to post by West Coast
 


Your attempts to impose your morality on other cultures is amusing to say the least.


ahhh, it is the culture excuse...

I wanted to add on the culture part a bit.
There is two cultures, one is based on necessity, and the other is based on luxury. One could argue that a crocodile killing a man is based on cultural necessity. Its based on finding food when your in need, and in a bit of a pinch (anything is fair game). The other is, Japaneses whalers killing an endangered species based on a cultural luxury.



I'm sure they can apply their moralities and find our culture to be equally repugnant and farcical for its blatant hypocrisies. But apparently, there is this naive perception that the Western world somehow has the "morality" to judge the rest of the world as to what is fair in their own house


I do not think we are as hypocritical as you make us out to be. But then again, the west is more civilized in that many of the worlds richest nations are in the west. Economically, we are more advanced, as well as technologically. That does have some effect on morality itself.


. That is the attitude of the narrow minded. As long as they are not dumping their garbage on my lawn I wouldnt be too bothered as to what they are eating or cooking. What you consider "in-humane" might be quite de rigueur. The attitude of condescension is what needs to be scorned at, not what other cultures eat or slaughter for their food.


If it can feel pain, why make it suffer just so you can make it taste better? Where is the respect for life in general? That is what is so deplorable. It is the actions of savages. What would you say, if an alien species descended upon earth, killing and eating every human being (alive i might add) in their path? Its there culture right? But is it right?


I've seen videos of poultry farms where chickens are smashed against the wall and killed before cutting them open. All kinds of brutalities done on animals. The whole "factory farming" with mechanised slaughter houses might also seem barbaric and revolting. To claim some greater moral pedestal to judge others is a fallacy that we as a culture would do well to avoid.


I dont defend it period. But it is more humane. But there is a clear distinction between smashing an animal like a chicken that has very brittle bones to begin with, against a wall, and skinning an animal as it squirms and crys helplessly to get away. Lets peel your flesh away from your bones while your alive and see how you react. Would you like it? Im not going to respond to much more on the issue because it is a stalemate. I didnt care to get into such a deep discussion to begin with. Just stated where I feel on the matter in general..


The western world doesnt own this world and the asians dont have to give a seconds thought to what we think. This world is theirs too and they have as muich right to destroy/protect is as we have.


Who gave us the right to destroy?


[edit on 21-11-2007 by West Coast]



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 06:20 PM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma
reply to post by West Coast
 


I didn't take it out of context. I saw it exactly as it is -- a case of the pot calling the kettle black. At any rate, IAF101 worded it better than I did.


yes you did.. and now your trolling.

Just to expand upon this... "I saw it exactly as it is" Which was exactly my initial point. You saw what was typed, thus misinterpreting the tone of it. Then you jumped to conclusions about me. Perhaps a thorough read through of what you really said?



[edit on 21-11-2007 by West Coast]

[edit on 21-11-2007 by West Coast]



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 06:40 PM
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reply to post by West Coast
 


Trolling? No. Just stating what I see. You can wrap it with all sorts of justifications, moral superiority and what not, it doesn't change my opinion. It's still, when you peel away all that fluff and get down to the basics, pointing out another's flaws while denigrating one's own defect.

PS -- Before you wrongly accuse me of some other thing, let me state for the record that I do realize there are animal abuses happening in Asia. In even in my own country. But to imply that it isn't looked down upon is just being duplicitous.


Originally posted by Skyfloating
In discussions like these it becomes painfully obvious to me that we dont even know how intelligent or non-intelligent whales are.


This is a slightly off topic but it's interesting nonetheless. It's not about whales though it is another cetacean -- bottlenose dolphins.

Alliance Strategies in Bottlenose Dolphins

Researchers have been studying the bottlenose dolphins (Tursiops sp.) in Shark Bay, Western Australia for quite a long time because they are tame. They have observed male-male alliances that seem very stable. Male alliances are usually groups of two or three males that can last many years. The association coefficient for some pairs of males is in the same range as those found for mothers and their nursing calves(3).

So why do males form these alliances? The answer seems to greatly reflect human behavior: to get women. Male alliances typically "herd" females for anywhere from a few minutes to months(4) These herding events are not usually enjoyed by the females. Herding is often forcible with escape events and violence involved.(3) In a herding event males will surround the female or chase her. Aggression toward the female is common and can include: hitting with the tail, head-jerks, charging, biting, or body slamming.(3) Should the female try to escape, which often happens, the males will chase her more often than not. Of course the ultimate goal of a herding event is sex and the males in the alliance will take turns to make sure everyone has an equal share. If the alliance has three members, only 2 will herd the female and the third will stay behind. However, the individual who is left behind changes with every herding event so again all members have an equal chance at mating. (3)


Bet you never heard about this on any animal documentary.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 06:55 PM
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Originally posted by Beachcoma
reply to post by West Coast
 


Trolling? No. Just stating what I see. You can wrap it with all sorts of justifications, moral superiority and what not, it doesn't change my opinion. It's still, when you peel away all that fluff and get down to the basics, pointing out another's flaws while denigrating one's own defect.

PS -- Before you wrongly accuse me of some other thing, let me state for the record that I do realize there are animal abuses happening in Asia. In even in my own country. But to imply that it isn't looked down upon is just being duplicitous.



Here is what you wrote.

"You know, that sort of thing happens in the west, too."

slaughters happen, yes. I acknowledged that.

"In fact it's not just animal abuse that happens, there's people abuse too."

I agree.

"And then there's psychological abuse that starts in school."

True, what does this have to do with the current issue?

"So why single out Asians?"

I have seen many a videos that show the cruel nature of asian slaughter houses. No slaughter house is a 'beautiful' place. But skinning an animal while it is alive just so it "taste" better, is pretty disturbing.

To defend that sort of treatment, as IAF did, is arguably condoning/defending a serial killer who tortures small animals (which is usually a classic sign, and where it all starts out for serial killers). Now before you jump to any more irrational conclusions like you already have, i am not calling asians in general, serial killers.

"Abuse is abuse, and people do it. Period. Singling out another group -- what purpose does it achieve?"

It states the obvious. that places like china, as well as other asian nations, do not have humane slaughter techniques in place.

"Does it make you feel better? More superior?"

Perhaps morally.



[edit on 21-11-2007 by West Coast]



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 07:02 PM
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Originally posted by West Coast
To defend that sort of treatment, as IAF did, is arguably condoning/defending a serial killer who torchers small animals (which is usually a classic sign, and where it all starts out for serial killers). Now before you jump to any more irrational conclusions like you already have, i am not calling asians in general, serial killers.


The above is probably where this tangent of argument arose from. You saw it as defending this sort of treatment. I saw it as calling out hypocrisy which ironically enough, was where you jumped into the thread.

Now do we understand each other?



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 08:03 PM
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Well in my humble opinion the "cultural" excuse is bunk. People from all over the world have hunted animals for food since the dark dawn of man. There was nothing wrong with that because back then it was a necessity. They needed to hunt animals for food. In modern times we no longer NEED to kill animals for food yet we still do, because we want to. The "want" has been sugar coated with excuses like cultural reasons, scientific endeavors, religious rights, and a ridiculous slew of others. Animals should not be viewed as a natural resource, but more as natural treasure. The cultural excuse is really a cover-up for the japanese whaling industry to make money. Many things that were once okay in certain cultures are now un-acceptable, its called progress. Should we still beat women, hang people for the color of their skin, or kill people in the name of god? Those are all things that could be considered cultural. The world, not just Japan, needs to realize that we do not need to consume everything at the rate we do. The livestock industry is a waste of good wheat, corn, and other grains, that could be better used to feed the entire world rather than just feeding a bunch of cows, so we can have a couple burgers. Whales are mammals on the planet and deserve a little respect. Whale burgers are not a Japanese tradition, they need to recognize it is not a sustainable resource and there is no good reason to hunt them. Humans want meat, they do not need it. That is my personal opinion, I'm sure many will disagree or be offended, but there it is.

PS- humans are a sustainable resource.... who wants a handburger?



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 08:20 PM
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Originally posted by omnicron
Is it just me or are mongoloids like to eat funny stuff?

You got the chinese who eats anything endangered they can get their hands on
for 'medicinal purposes'

And you got the Japanese eating intelligent whales and dolphins.

[edit on 20-11-2007 by omnicron]

It's obviously just you. And I assume that you have not crossed the borders of your own country or watched documentaries on other countries in the world to realize that what may be foreign to you is normal practice for others. And this is not only just Asia (or Mongoloids as you call them) but Europeans, South Americans and Africans as well.

Not every nation in the world wants to have an obesity epidemic. Western nations are full of fat people who can't bend over to touch their toes. A health crisis beckons.

Think about that, and do some traveling one day if you can afford it, and if you can't afford it watch something like Anthony Bourdain on the Travel Channel...



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 08:33 PM
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Originally posted by dk3000
The Japanese do not give two #s to Sunday about anything with regards to life.

All of Asian should have been turned into green glass during WW2. End transmission.

[edit on 20-11-2007 by dk3000]


Japan is a pacifist nation, an ultra modern nation and friends of the United States and her Western allies. Like America and every other country in the world there are those in Japan who don't see things as they should. Call them kooky, call them what you will, but there is good and bad everywhere in every race. Might I mention Dirty Dick Cheney and Bush Jr?

Remember that Japan has enough weapons-grade fusile material that if it were to convert it all into nuclear weapons, then Japan would have a greater arsenal of weapons than that of the United States. They are a friend and they will be great players when an equilibrium needs to be established when China and Russia start building up their militaries to match their economic strength (both current and future).

But back to topic, I'm not a huge fan of whaling mainly because the mammals die slow deaths, but whales are part of the food chain, and ultimately, man is on top of it. Such is life.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 11:00 PM
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Its funny some of you mentioned farming whales because Author C. Clark wrote a science fiction novel where in the future man had turned to farming whales for food and used the oceans as a great prairie and submersibles in the place of horses. I'm very glad to see the response; I see many of you do care for the whales. I also respect the opinion of those who side with the Japanese. I have cut back greatly on steaks, burgers, and chicken, but sill eat them occasionally and enjoy them all. I have met pigs, cows, and chickens: I find then all charming animals but I feel little remorse when I slice into my rib eye or pork chop. I have also had the privilege to sea humpback whales in person and they have a great presence I can not describe. My grandfather is a pretty simple man but in his attempt to swim with these massive creatures in the cold Atlantic he felt something to. I can’t explain why but it does not seem right to kill one of the humpback whales, and many others for that matter. Wikiwa is my Avatar, he is a one year old red bellied conure, and if you took the time to know him you would be amazed how much personality and intelligence something weighing a couple of ounces could have. He is starting to speak as well. It’s been debated if birds really can learn to talk or that they are just mimicking there owners. You can find tons of evidence to argue both sides. If an African Grey Parrot, one of the smartest birds alive, can make up its own words I would think it’s pretty smart. I heard a story of an African Grey calling its owners aroma therapy "smelly medicine", it came up with that name on its own. I have read countless letters written to Bird Talk Magazine by owners who claim to have basic communication with there birds. Given good training, high intelligence, and a sometimes 80 year lifespan, it’s spooky how smart these little critters can be. I think if we all truly knew how intelligent animals are and the pain they feel we would all be shocked and vegetarians. I have had many dogs but why does my five year old border collie seem more like a little person then a dog?



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 11:00 PM
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Originally posted by West Coast
However, Asian nations in general, seem to have more inhumane treatment.

That's a generalization, and a very poor one at that. As you say yourself, inhumane cruelty of animals is a problem the world over. Just because you've seen a few clips that made its way on YouTube does not make your statement valid at all. In fact it shows your level of ignorance instead.



Originally posted by West CoastThe way we treat the animals in the west, is much much better when compared. We make it a quick death. We do not slowly butcher cows, or any animals in general for that matter while they are still alive. We just dont. WE have a higher respect for animals, we love them. We dont eat cats, and dogs. Hell, we dont eat have the sh#t asian ppl eat.

Slaughtering of animals (cows, sheep et al) in Japan is of the highest standard and completely humane. Not only this but they are treated with the greatest care. You might have heard of Kobe beef and its reputation.
The best beef you can get anywhere in the world, and that is actually fact. The Japanese have a belief that if the animals live a life stress free, the meat will end up tasting better. Heck, they even feed their cows beer, fruit and vegetables. That is also actually a fact.
The Japanese don't eat cats, and they certainly don't eat dogs. You are generalizing once again. Koreans may eat them but that doesn't mean that the Japanese do. Do a bit more research other than watching nasty YouTube videos before coming to your conclusions, which are ultimately misleading and superficially drawn to.
The Japanese diet consists mainly of fish, beef, chicken, rice, noodles and vegetables. That probably explains why you don't see very many fat people in Japanese society. That probably explains why the Japanese are collectively more healthier.
Obesity is an epidemic in Western society. 1 in 5 people are fatties. They will develop heart problems, can't walk a mile before being puffed out, can't bend over to get the morning newspaper, rather watch trash on TV while drinking beer and eating chips instead of going out and enjoying life.
Western culture or lifestyle is not the Utopia you'd like to think it is. This is fact. Do you have trouble comprehending facts which make your "Utopian society" look ordinary?
Again, I challenge you to do some non-biased research on it to allow you a greater sense of awareness.


Originally posted by West Coast Much if not EVERYTHING in our oceans are bad for human consumption. The level of toxins in our oceans is very high. I do not eat sea food for that fact, and that fact alone. It is just not healthy for you.

Neurotic overtones here. Not everything in our oceans is bad. On the contrary, most things from our oceans is good and a wonderful source of nutrients. Toxins is a concern in some places, but tests are regularly done by competent nations to ensure seafood is suitable to eat. To hear one or two reports about toxins and then assume that it is a worldwide epidemic is silly. If you don't like seafood because of the taste then fair enough, but seafood is a delicacy the world over and that is a fact.


I don't agree with the culling of dolphins or whales by the Japanese. But it is a cultural thing which has been around much longer than the USA has been an independent nation. The Nordics have been doing it equally as long. I agree with you that culling of such mammals is inhumane. But this world we live in is not a Utopia. Human nature is such a weird and complex thing. Heck humans can't be humane to other humans everywhere on this earth, including the good ol' USA. You might not agree with what the Japanese are doing as I don't, but who are we or anybody else for that matter to tell the Japanese to stop doing something they've done for centuries and is also a livelihood for those involved...



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 11:16 PM
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reply to post by jojoKnowsBest
 

Animals big and small are wonderful creatures jojo. Some have greater degrees of intelligence than others, but at the end of the day, they all feel happiness, sadness, stress and pain.
It's unfortunate to see the whales being hunted down. They are peaceful, highly intelligent and wonderful creatures.

Many things in this world we live in are unfortunate.



posted on Nov, 21 2007 @ 11:23 PM
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I don’t like to stereotype people but I do want to share an interesting story. There is a nice fishing spot on my little island paradise, it’s a great place to hang out and chat with the locals and make new friends. There was a middle aged Asian couple who fished there almost every day in the summer. Both were absolute sweat hearts, good Christians, and brought all the fish they caught to a homeless shelter. The husband was a great guy. I was new to the area and fishing in Puget Sound; he showed me many tricks and tips. We were all trying to catch salmon and flounder, though you would get a lot of undesirable catch. If I wasn’t going to eat the fish I would always release it. This guy would often maliciously kill the fish. He did not like them because these undesirable fish would steal his bait and waste his time reeling them in. We would catch dogfish a lot, and they are pretty cool looking, they were small sharks getting up to about 4 or 5 feet. He would grab them by the fin and slam then into the dock then kick them as hard as he could back into the sound. They would still be alive and it was sad to watch them flap away to a slow death. One fish we often caught had poisonous spines and he would rip the spins out and impale the fish with its own spine. They were very nice people and treated other humans wonderfully; obviously there culture treats animals differently. I could see his actions would bother the other fisherman while others would chuckle, but what could you really do? If he was trying to reduce the population of a fisherman nuisance wouldn’t a knife in the brain do the trick?



posted on Nov, 22 2007 @ 11:35 AM
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Man, this thread makes me wanna harpoon some asians, or boil alive some asians, or skin alive some asians, or slaughter alive some asians, or slam a large hook at the foreheads of these asians.

Truly, these dolphin eating, cat slaughtering, pangolin eating asians make me sick.
You can't think about not being racist when this kind of animal cruelty is discussed. I really hope Japan and some of these animal torturing countries get what they deserve when the BIG ONE happens.



posted on Nov, 22 2007 @ 05:24 PM
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One thing to consider too is that when it comes to brain development...
insofar as it is possible to gauge these things by anatomy alone....
These large marine mamals are our equals or in some cases like dophins...
They surpass us in brain size and development....
Of course it goes without saying that a water based life form is going to be menally developed along different lines than a land based one...

But the weak justifications that alot of people fall back on when they eat meat for example... that the host animal is inferior and so this somewhat lessens the impact on our sensibilities ETC....
(Who cares if a chicken dies right?)
Can not appy.....
These animals are as concious and selfware as we are...
And in the case of whales and difinitely dolphins emotionally far more developed than we are.....
I.E. not only is it then no-sense to say fish dont feel...
It then becomes a case of... their feelings and emotional states/awareness are (as far as can be asertained by brain anatomy) far more in advance than ours....

So killing these animals is most definitely murder........

And I believe in the future our children will look on these dark days with the same absolute horror as our recent ancestors did to problems in their era when for example many folks turned a blind eye to the racially motivated linchings for example......

people have to start lobbing the government to freeze trade with japan.
As big as they are... they need to be put in their place on this issue...
And the cost of blood should never be weighed up against financial concerns.
If they do not stop we should stop trading with them.
If the US were to even threaten to do this they would stop immediately.
And if they did not then someone can step up and take their place....



reply to post by jojoKnowsBest
 



posted on Nov, 23 2007 @ 12:16 AM
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Originally posted by omnicron
Man, this thread makes me wanna harpoon some asians, or boil alive some asians, or skin alive some asians, or slaughter alive some asians, or slam a large hook at the foreheads of these asians.


Yes that's nice.

Let us know how you go with that, and what hospital you'll be in recovering from your coma-induced injuries so that I can send you some pretty lill' tulips



posted on Nov, 23 2007 @ 12:24 AM
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Originally posted by morphonius821
And I believe in the future our children will look on these dark days with the same absolute horror as our recent ancestors did to problems in their era when for example many folks turned a blind eye to theracially motivated lynchings for example......

Doesn't that still happen from time to time down south?
It is still an issue today let alone generations gone by...


Originally posted by morphonius821people have to start lobbing the government to freeze trade with japan.
As big as they are... they need to be put in their place on this issue...
And the cost of blood should never be weighed up against financial concerns.
If they do not stop we should stop trading with them.
If the US were to even threaten to do this they would stop immediately.
And if they did not then someone can step up and take their place....

Never happen.
Why?...because economic issues overide anything eco-environmental. Protests from Green Peace is as far as it will go on this issue.



posted on Nov, 23 2007 @ 05:32 PM
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Originally posted by DaleGribble
i was just saying that the ships claim to be doing it for research. i cant prove they are just as you cant prove they arent.


What if the rest of us were already researching that school of whales? There goes next year's data set.

Sri Oracle



posted on Nov, 23 2007 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by vox2442
Is it OK for indigenous American populations to hunt whale?

I ask because the US government (and public, and greenpeace, and CNN and so forth) seem to have no problem with the Alaska Eskimo Whaling Commission taking 50 bowheads a year from an estimated population of only 8,000.


And .... last time I checked the Eskimo popualation didn't head half way round the world in commercial fishing boats to hunt. They hunt those whales because it is tradition. The japanese hunt them for commercial gain. They know it is wrong as well which is why they always site their completely bogus " scientific " reasons. They are scum.



posted on Nov, 26 2007 @ 09:32 PM
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Originally posted by Underbelly

Originally posted by omnicron
Man, this thread makes me wanna harpoon some asians, or boil alive some asians, or skin alive some asians, or slaughter alive some asians, or slam a large hook at the foreheads of these asians.


Yes that's nice.

Let us know how you go with that, and what hospital you'll be in recovering from your coma-induced injuries so that I can send you some pretty lill' tulips
I think japan has a wonderful history, one that is great in tradition..however, the japanese stomp porn...gotta stop... Thats where they take cute little puppies and kittys, and stomp on them...Its very disgusting. Such a rich culture resulting to such disgraceful acts is seriously a waste.




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