I have a very serious question.

reply to post by Cker11


what the bible says is all manipulated. People believed in god and creation centuries before the bible was even planned to be written, well before jesus was around. Later on decided in the nicea by mr mastermind constantine thus I dont trust a word of it.

Yet I do believe there a god, a supreme being, the first dot. Creation. And yes he if we can clasified as "he" created you, but as a whole my friend as a whole! He created you in spirit, in soul, energy, cuz how the physical side of humans was created is still a huge argument, Im sure wasnt out of adam and eve and so on. So that being said. You create your self, you make ur self the way you are, the way you behave, the way you think, of course well influenced by the environment around you. Thus, if I am born a mass murderer, i cannot claim i was created by god that way, thus it is his fault. So, along you life, different circunstances have made you to turn out to be the way you are.

I would just like to say, I used to consider myself Atheist just because I didn't believe in any of the faiths that I have grown up around, I only recently understood the meaning of Agnosticism and I would definitely consider myself agnostic now.

I recently lost my Grandad and have often asked for a sign or something just for him to show me that he is not totally gone and that there is something after this life...Nothing happened but I still havent totally dismissed the idea that there is more than this life. So if I have enough faith to believe that there may be something else, surely that would be enough to get me on the right side of 'God' Whether I am religious or not? This just adds to my belief that I am ok to live the way I want to live. You can still be a good person without bowing down to an almighty entity.

reply to post by fiftyfifty


Fifty I have gone thru the same. I believe no bs about religion "control of masses" which is what it is. Im Spanish I know about it . But to try to explain that there is no god does not make sense. That we came frm monkeys is the most idiotic thing ive heard. Yet we are here and someone started the whole thing thats for sure.

Im sure there is a god, whether it is a man, energy, an entity, another civilization somewhere else in the universe... who knows, but im sure something happens to us after we are out.

Think for a second that all we know about religion was written by writters.. who had no clue on how to explain things... I wish it was scientiest... but it would help either because of their knowledge then.

Ok so imaging that Adam and eve is just the way as knowledge then allowed them to explain and describe what happen. Say someone, some more advance race came along and dropped those two here, to become evolution in this planet... 2,000 years ago, If you say this happening wouldnt you say hey thats god! those two are god's creations... right... well every single line in the bible can be explained this way. Carousels of fire .... maybe alien spacecrafts? Jesus walking on water and healing ppl? maybe this advance being tell us we are out of our minds and we have to start behaving? and yes walking on water im sure is a joke for them and so on.... jesus wasnt the first my friend, every sigle civilization, at least the most intelligent ones on earth have had one of these,,, their own messias... from the mayans to the egyptians and summerians.... long before our christianity was even thought of being invented. So yes, we are here for a reason, someone took the time to bring us over, and make us evolve and provide us with the tech and knowledge we needed to do so. SO if thats the case, call them gods or whatever we may call them, yes there is more out ther... Im sure we aint gonna just be a memory! for know nothing about it yet we have so much to learn still...

Originally posted by Cker11
God created everything right? which means God created me, and he created me the way I am.

God created all of us the way we are. Our personalities, our opinions, our abilities, our emotions... etc...etc...etc....

The bible says you must believe, you must have faith to be saved, to enter the kingdom of heaven and not spend a lifetime in damnation.

As many others in this world, i am the type of person who much have evidence. physical, without a doubt, hard proof evidence of something before I can completely believe.

So, my question is this. If God made me the way I am. And I am the type that needs evidence. Why is that a problem??

Doesn't that seem kind of contradicing? Hyporcritical?

Yep...God made me agnostic...who are you to question his wisdom?
I use this argument all the time.

reply to post by Cker11



You've got it wrong brother. Here is your error.

God has made us with free will. So it is your free will that defines who you are. I too am one that likes the hard evidence, but the hard evidence you seek is already inside yourself and you refuse to believe that which you know.

reply to post by Incarnated


Define 'free-will'.
Free from the laws of physics?
So if i have 'free-will' i should be able to choose if i go to heaven or not.

If there is a god that knows all, then free-will is an illusion. Heck even god itself doesn't have free-will

[edit on 21-1-2008 by AncientVoid]

Originally posted by Cker11
God created everything right? which means God created me, and he created me the way I am.

God created all of us the way we are. Our personalities, our opinions, our abilities, our emotions... etc...etc...etc....

The bible says you must believe, you must have faith to be saved, to enter the kingdom of heaven and not spend a lifetime in damnation.

As many others in this world, i am the type of person who much have evidence. physical, without a doubt, hard proof evidence of something before I can completely believe.

So, my question is this. If God made me the way I am. And I am the type that needs evidence. Why is that a problem??

Doesn't that seem kind of contradicing? Hyporcritical?

If you're speaking of the God defined to us in Scripture (also known as the Bible) then please show me where, or anyone else for that matter, where it says that man has "free will"?

God knows the beginning from the end for He is the Author of it. To use an analogy, God has written a book and thus He is the Author, He has created the characters and set the stage and He manipulates these scenes as He wills for He is the Author. He also knows the beginning, middle and end for again He is the Author. So as the Author of the beginning, middle and end God also knows who will and who will not be saved for He has predestined it as such.

Some will be vessels of blessings and others of wrath.

As for "faith". No one has faith but faith to believe must be given and the giver of this faith is God. None are born believers for all are born into sin with a will to disobey, not obey God.

In regards to "evidence", well if your serious about evidence then you need to ask yourself a few questions, and think deeply upon them.

How do you define "evidence"?

How do you gain knowledge?

Lastly, *IF* God is real and predestined you to be saved then what can you do about it? If He predestined you for His wrath what can you do about it? The answer is you or anyone else can't do diddle squat about it. Why? Because God alone is the Author.

What if God allows you to blink your eye and at the same time allows the unbeliever to scoff at my post? What can anyone do about it?

Everyone thinks they are the rulers of their destiny and that they choose what they will as they will. What if God has predestined them to believe that? Again there ain't anything they can do about it.

Originally posted by SilverSmith

...As for "faith". No one has faith but faith to believe must be given and the giver of this faith is God. None are born believers for all are born into sin with a will to disobey, not obey God.

In regards to "evidence", well if your serious about evidence then you need to ask yourself a few questions, and think deeply upon them.

How do you define "evidence"?

How do you gain knowledge?

Lastly, *IF* God is real and predestined you to be saved then what can you do about it? If He predestined you for His wrath what can you do about it? The answer is you or anyone else can't do diddle squat about it. Why? Because God alone is the Author.

What if God allows you to blink your eye and at the same time allows the unbeliever to scoff at my post? What can anyone do about it?

Everyone thinks they are the rulers of their destiny and that they choose what they will as they will. What if God has predestined them to believe that? Again there ain't anything they can do about it.

Ya know, I really wish God(if he exists) would've come up with a better method of judgement, rather than sending his son here to DIE for the sins of everyone. Died because "all are born into sin with a will to disobey".

I'm thinking if the Christian God was as smart as he's made out to be, he would've done something better than that(Maybe a better, more reasonable method of judgement?). Of course, there are plenty of reasons why killing Jesus was a better way, but there are arguments against that too.

Also,
it's not free will if there's a gun to your head.
It's not free will if "God has a plan for all of us"
It's not free will if God knows everything; past, present, future.

If God exists and HAS predestined us to USE our intelligence, question everything, be open-minded, but then send us to hell for it...that's just sick. We live a great and happy life, a search for truth, a denial of ignorance, all under God's control so that he'll send us to hell. How disappointing...

Originally posted by Kyuubi

Ya know, I really wish God(if he exists) would've come up with a better method of judgement, rather than sending his son here to DIE for the sins of everyone. Died because "all are born into sin with a will to disobey".

I'm thinking if the Christian God was as smart as he's made out to be, he would've done something better than that(Maybe a better, more reasonable method of judgement?). Of course, there are plenty of reasons why killing Jesus was a better way, but there are arguments against that too.

Also,
it's not free will if there's a gun to your head.
It's not free will if "God has a plan for all of us"
It's not free will if God knows everything; past, present, future.

If God exists and HAS predestined us to USE our intelligence, question everything, be open-minded, but then send us to hell for it...that's just sick. We live a great and happy life, a search for truth, a denial of ignorance, all under God's control so that he'll send us to hell. How disappointing...

First, again I ask where is free will given in Scripture?

Second, design a better judgment

Third, create a greater God than the one revealed within Scripture

Well, my points were for those that think a Christian God has free will and for those that believe a Christian God has given us free will.

But seriously, I would also like to see some scriptural evidence of free will.

reply to post by ben91069


you made an excellent, IMHO, point with this comment:

If you cannot know if you will die in the next hour with 100% certainty, then you do not have free-will

i have never ever thought of it like that. I always used to think Muslims believed in free will until i found out they really shouldn't. But never have i seen a better example of why we don't.
If i have true free will....i should be able to say, i choose never to get ill, not to die until i am 100yrs old, never to be robbed, turned down for a job, etc.
Doesn't work like that though. Maybe it does

In which case, yes, it seems like there is no point. If the Creator knows everything, then what's the point?
But, i have faith....i still believe there is some big plan, even though soemtimes it's bloody hard to work out what that might be.

Man...I've been thinking about that for the past few days, since I saw it.

It totally makes sense and it's pretty much true.

So, from that perspective we don't have free will, AT all. It doesn't even seem so bad from that perspective. I think it's better than just thinking God is in control of everything and that I have no free will like that.

(Bible Bus Pulls Up...screeech) ...

My only response to you is, Why are people ALWAYS trying to find excuses NOT to believe in God?

If your question were a serious one, which you know it is not, probably it could be answered. But I think you are just trying to raise another debate of sorts.

Just take a breath and it'll be okay.

reply to post by Cker11


Oh man... : )

Doubt - or lack of faith - is a "problem": for YOU, not for God.
And it's a "problem" because it is what's preventing YOU from being one of God's face(t)s - a god in God, as it were.

And remember: to an amoeba, many things would seem "contradictory", perhaps even "hypocritical" - because the amoeba wouldn't understand the complexities of a multicellular world.

Am I comparing you to an amoeba?
No, I am comparing mankind at large to an amoeba.

Originally posted by jdposey

(Bible Bus Pulls Up...screeech) ...

My only response to you is, Why are people ALWAYS trying to find excuses NOT to believe in God?

If your question were a serious one, which you know it is not, probably it could be answered. But I think you are just trying to raise another debate of sorts.

Just take a breath and it'll be okay.

Hahaha. Bible bus? That's a good one.

Well, I'm sorry if I came off like I was "trying to find excuses NOT to believe in God."

It's not like that. I promise you. But honestly, it's better if we study the world around us; better if we use our intelligence; better if we discover the truth on our own rather than declaring the cause of everything God. It's just not an idea that fits well with those on a search for truth.

No matter how comforting it may be for some people, it's not satisfying and it makes no sense, especially comparing your "truths" to what we've discovered already.

Originally posted by jdposey

(Bible Bus Pulls Up...screeech) ...

My only response to you is, Why are people ALWAYS trying to find excuses NOT to believe in God?

If your question were a serious one, which you know it is not, probably it could be answered. But I think you are just trying to raise another debate of sorts.

Just take a breath and it'll be okay.

Why SHOULD religions have some sort of special freedom?
We must approach the question of "god" with the same appraoch we would
the question of "should this serial killer go free?"
And a serial killer trial is FAR more trivial then the question of a divine creator,yet it is looked at at every angle and every viewpoint.

why shouldnt the question of god?

Agreed. We must question everything and approach it the same way.

Unfortunately for some people, some ideas don't last as long in the ring as others do.

[edit on 24-1-2008 by Kyuubi]