Iraq war is a betrayal of American democracy

Originally posted by Cuhail

Agit8edChop. I agree with 99% of what ya said. I have a question though. It applies to this, of which I hear a lot but, never hear a good suggestion to address it.

Why is it so hard for the American people to take action and stop this haneous slaughter?

Its so hard because , from my point of view.. too many Americans enjoy their fast foods, their beer, their guzzling SUV's, their big screen TV's, their hawainn shirts, their holidays at disney world etc etc etc.

Most dont care whats happening over there, so long as it isnt happenin where they are. They are content with murder and mahem, so long as they only see it on the small screen in their living room.

And beacuse the governmnet has brought in such wide ranging powers, that simply to go against the Iraqi policy, voice a strong voice of dissent for the illegial war, or rally and stride in front of the whitehouse with banners raised and a firm voice heard, could result in losses of property, life and liberty.

If I had nothing to live for, id be standing on a massive block in front of the whitehouse with a huge banner saying

'' HANG THE CRIMINALS, LIKE WE DID THE NAZI'S ''

'' IRAQI IS ILLEGIAL, JUST LIKE POLAND IN THE 30's ''

'' IRAQ WMDS = CORPORATE MORALS.... There are NONE! ''

With a megaphone demanding President george bush, whom SERVES THE PEOPLE, come down and answer the people.

You need to start DEMANDING your answers from your leaders. They are there to serve you, not dictate to you.

and I feel to many Americans just plain ol dont give a flying fark!

A majority dont agree with Bush, fair enough..

But if your family were dying, your friends being locked up or recruited by militia's, your jobs disolving, your nation being WASTED by occupation.. im sure as hell positive you'd make a stand then.

... guys.....

my maint point in every post is that Iraq is for Iraqi's.
And for every day we occupy their land, they have the RIGHT to kill us.

We are occupying them, they are resisting us.

We use this resistance as justification for continuing and expanding our occupation.

Ask yourself,
If you were occupied... would you side with the occupier?

Look at history,

The Dutch, the French.... in WW2 society HATED and humiliated ANYONE that even associated with the Nazi' occupiers.

In the end, hatred for the Nazi's devestated germany.

Are you really willing to allow America, the land the forefathers BUILT to be devestated simply because GW, Cheney and the rest of the 'crazies' hard a hardon for corporate expansionism throughout the ME?

If you do, your no better then the Germans who paraded next to hitler and himmler in my opinion. and history shows occupations fail, empires fall, and the guilty get their just reward!

Sorry Cuhail I should have been clearer, You can Boo away. The rest of the comments by me were directed to the OP and Marg for their stance....

reply to post by Oneshot1


Is nothing wrong with been against my stand or any other person in here that's the way debates are made.

I see your point of view you see mine and others. Is hard to talk about the Iraqi war that is decimating so many of their population, but what makes it worst is the amount of children that are falling victim to this war in Iraq.

This children will be raised with hatred toward the invaders of their country, the almost 2 million Iraqis that are living in exile due to the dangerous conditions in Iraq since invasion I doubt they are our Friends either.

This people will be funding also the cause against the invaders of their nation making them also enemies.

So at the end who is the enemy of the invaders? is the Iraqi people fighting for their nation.

The same way That I will have no problem defending my nation against any invaders also.

reply to post by Agit8dChop



I did NOT write that, but RESPONDED to that. Please fix the quotation. I believe that paragraph was originally posted by Cuhail, and I do not directly agree with him on the facts of that particular issue.


[edit on 21-11-2007 by jackinthebox]

Coalition forces fight next to Iraqi Army soldiers who are fighting for their country everyday. A program which I am not sure if your aware of or not CLC (concerned local citizens) has gone into effect. Local Iraqis supported by Coalition forces fight insurgents to take control of their neighborhoods.

Here is your problem. Your looking to far into the past. Your main argument is that this is an illegal war which was started 4 years ago. For some reason you think it's every Iraqis duty to fight the Coalition forces.

What you are failing to see is what is going on today. Regardless of what you think the US government is up to Coalition forces are fighting stabilize Iraq today, right now! You wake up in the morning; Coalition forces are fighting to stabilize Iraq. You are eating lunch; Coalition forces are fighting to stabilize Iraq. You are sleeping at night and Coalition forces are still fighting to stabilize Iraq. Get the point? Regardless of what this war was started for or what you believe the government is trying to do, Coalition forces have a mission. That mission is to stabilize Iraq. You know what Iraqis want? They want to be able to go to work in the morning, without having to worry about an insurgent with a bomb strapped to his chest attempting to "fight for their country".

Yeah Styki point on, I couldnt have said it better, Thanks....Marg, You are right, we may not agree, but it's all good to hear another side.... Sorry if I seemed surly, I should avoid early A.M. post's...

reply to post by Styki



What is going on today is in direct relation to what occured 4years ago.

Iraqi's arent fighting us because we DID what we did 4 years ago.

How can you possibly say its looking to far into the past.

The ILLEGIAL occupation that started 4years ago, and created so much hatred against the west, is the PRIME FACTOR in Iraqi's killing Americans.

Our reason to be there, was total BS.
It was a lie, made up to fool you.

You dont think that has a bearing on WHY people in that nation dont like us?

reply to post by jackinthebox


My mistake mate, I cannot edit it unfortunately.
sorry i shuld of taken note.

reply to post by Agit8dChop


It's looking to far into the past because when your in a war zone your not looking that far into the past. Your worried about trying to get food and water to your family. Your worried about where your family is going to live tomorrow or that next drive to the market to get food. Your worried about where your going to work to get that next paycheck.

It's kind of like what you were saying about Americans living their lives without even seeing what is going on in the rest of the world. In Iraq it's almost the same but the war is going on there and people are worried about trying to survive.

Heck, I am not going to lye. Some of these "insurgents" are just people putting a bomb on the side of the road to make a little money. Some of these "insurgents" are just people picking up an AK to shoot at Coalition forces to try to get war out of their backyards.

But the fact of the matter remains that many Iraqis are just worried about the safety of everyday life. Nothing is going to change the what happened, or why it happened but that's in the past. What we need to worry about is what is best for the future. If the US pulls out of Iraq before the Iraqi government is able to control the population there is not going to be anything but more attacks and more violence.

I happened to be in Iraq at the moment. I see where your coming from. Sometimes I think it would be great to just turn in my weapon and go home. But I also know what that would mean for the Iraqi people I see everyday. I know what that would mean for the Iraqi army which would continue to get attacked on a daily basis. I know what would happen to all the people in the CLC (Concerned local Citizen) program who are fighting for their country.

Is risking American lives to stabalize Iraq worth the risk? I don't know. But if the US leaves Iraq right now we are going to more violence.

Maybe it's a military thing. Because when you are in the military you realize you aren't going to get vary far by asking why something happened. You learn to ask what do we do next.

Originally posted by Oneshot1
I fully understand that we are in a War for the survival of the American way of life

Tell us what you think Iraq did to the US that merits invading, occupying and killing them.

What does attacking Iraq have to do with the survival of the American way of life?

If you believe it is because of 9/11 then explain why NONE of the 'supposed' hijackers were Iraqi.

I'll state one thing.

How come troops won't leave Iraq when we got Saddam already? Is Iraq still a threat to the world and us?

That's the question...

reply to post by Styki


Your points are legit. American troops are working to stablize Iraq alongside Iraqis. (Though we also fought alongside the South Vietnamese.) The problem is that the US caused this chaos, not Iraq. It's a lose-lose situation really. Morally we can't leave until Iraq is stabilized. But the criminals who started this war knew that would be the case when this all started. They knew there were no WMD's or connection to 9/11, etc. What better way to continue the occupation than for "humanitarian" reasons? "Should I stay or should I go?" A difficult question to answer indeed.

reply to post by jackinthebox


I agree.

Our soldiers are supporting the manipulated political system put in together by our present administration to ensure a take over of the Iraqi resources.

While the luring of goods and money for the new emerging elite in power is good enough for them is not good enough for the people that their wishes have not been taken into consideration.

Is no such thing as an insurgency but very angry Iraqis fighting back for what they see as belonging to them their most precious commodity the Iraqi oil.

Iraq has been relegated to a money for profit land at the expenses of the Iraqi people by the profiteers of this war.

They have no regards for the population, they culture and believes, they shoot at will and right now the streets in Baghdad are full of Iraqi children that are homeless, destitute and with no adults to guide them.

This new generation of Iraqi are facing a nation destroyed in the name of liberation, freedom and the American's invaders.

This new generation are facing a nation with no jobs, education and health care.

This is the Iraqi of today.

Thanks Mr. Bush you have liberated Iraq alright, at least their oil.


[edit on 22-11-2007 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043


Marg- the Iraqis are killing each other at a much greater rate than they are killing us(or we are killing them). I think the premise you're operating under is fundementally flawed. What the average Iraqi wants is A- security B- employment. Iraqis are joining the military/police in droves(and they voted under threat, and in Al Anbar they've gotten on board with the US as they've seen through the Al Qaeda BS), even under threat from insurgents, because they want a better future. It's a BS notion to think that the mindset of every Iraqi is that they want Americans dead. I find it amusing to see so many of you who've never been to Iraq, pontificating about what everything means, and how everyone else is so misinformed. If you've been paying attention, the levels of violence are way down, though I suspect you don't believe it because those facts contradict your foregone conclusions, and worldviews.

reply to post by BlueRaja


What do you expect when the only jobs available in Iraq are join the government corrupted military or be tagged insurgency.

Even haliburton bring its own foreign workers to work in Iraq.

IRAQ: Unemployment and violence increase poverty

www.irinnews.org...

reply to post by marg6043


Yeah but there are a lot of Iraqi's that work at US bases too. Some if them work in the defacs, others work as interpreters.

I would have to say that unemployment and poverty lead to violence.

Nvm, I got it now.

Iraq is under the American colony.

[edit on 25-11-2007 by TheoOne]

Hmmm, I knew that reading this thread I'd hit a "war for oil" quote or two.

Why are we still in Iraq? How about trying to stablize the country? I think everyone knows we made mistakes when we defeated their army in the field. We disbanded their army, didn't think about the long term effects of trying to establish their new government, etc, etc, etc.

No WMDs in Iraq? Are you sure? Really sure? Bet your life? I fly over that country just about every day. Look at a map. It's pretty big, lots of desert. You could hide anything out there. Anything. That is, if they weren't trucked to Syria, which I think they might have been. I saw a buttload of traffic heading in that direction in 2003.

Once again, US troops killing civilians. Guess what guys and gals? We don't kill them on purpose! Everyone over here is briefed on LOAC and the ROEs. Yes, civilians are killed in error. Does anyone cry over the civilians that are killed in the marketplace by some insurgent with a suicide vest? They sure weren't targeting US military when they blow themselves up there; they were trying to kill innocents.

I don't know about those in the US, but if Matt Howard was Australian, I would be honoured to have him as my local member of Federal parliament and would gratefully campaign for the man and push for him to have seat in cabinet...

For a man like that to speak out as he did is a sign of a man who cares far more for his countrymen and indeed his fellow man, than the ideals of the few who choose to exploit the situation this man found himself in...

I wish him all the best and every happiness in life

Peace