The 96° in Memphis-Mitzraim is a good example of what we were talking about. These groups are what orthodox Freemasonry calls "degree peddlars'", i.e., scams.
When Masonry became wildly popular, a host of unscrupulous folks invented "rites" and "degrees", and sold these "dignities" to the highest bidder. Such organizations still exist....you can go from being a non-Mason to a 97° Grand Hierophant of the Order of Sirius in 15 minutes....and a couple of hundred bucks!

Originally posted by orior


I do not know why the real issue most be if it's authentic or not, if by authentic you mean that the members of this organizations are able to improve themselves and their communities, then I would call it authentic, but if by authentic you mean a piece of paper, I think you will get deceived a lot of times.

Many groups allow people to improve themselves. If they do, then I give them a big thumbs up.

But that has nothing to do with technical term "authenticity" in Freemasonry. Here, what is relevant is not whether a group promotes self-improvement, but whether or not the group is Masonic. Yoga classes, for example, promote self-improvement but they are not Masonic.

They are indeed a legitimate Order, however one would have to check to see if they are formally recognized with the AISB. Both Spain and Solomons old Order are Baphomet worshipers. Both orders make certain you understand this at the beginning.

They are considered paramasonic but are not a part of masonry at all, just outside clubs catering to that sort of religion.

Most of the persons interested in these sorts of modern versions of the orders are also OTO members or Golden Dawn. I can say all of the folks I have met are fine people and see nothing wrong with them having their own beliefs.

Be warned though the dues and fees from spain are rather high for the average person in order to sort out some of the less desirable element.

Dues and fees for IO are average. They seem to have a 'right to bear arms mentality' rather than what you would expect as a source for esoteric studies. There again seemed like nice folks.

Keep in mind these are all basically esoteric study groups and your going to have access to only what they promote to study, so on the whole, many are very limiting as far as the volume of knowledge. This is why you see some members being members of several differing groups.

[edit on 22-2-2008 by Illahee]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
I do not know why the real issue most be if it's authentic or not, if by authentic you mean that the members of this organizations are able to improve themselves and their communities, then I would call it authentic, but if by authentic you mean a piece of paper, I think you will get deceived a lot of times.

Do you consider John Yarker to have received the legitimate Egyptian Rite Degrees of Cagliostro?

Originally posted by Illahee
I believe one man and one woman in the bonds of marriage for life.

In case you are under the impression that the teachings I've referenced here teach otherwise, I must say that they do not.

The Gnostic teaching in regard to Marriage(which is consummated by the Sexual-Connection between Woman and Man) is the same as that in the Christian Gospels:

"Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." Matthew 19


"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart." - Matthew 5

Originally posted by Illahee
I would be interested in your opinions via u2u. I think this is a bit deeper than just the explanation of the OPs invitation.

Thank you.

I've nothing further to add at the moment.

However, if you have anything else you would like to address via U2U, then please, by all means do.




[edit on 22-2-2008 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Tamahu




Do you consider John Yarker to have received the legitimate Egyptian Rite Degrees of Cagliostro?

Cagliostro's Egyptian degrees were themselves not legitimate. They were created by he and his wife, and were never authorized by any regular Masonic body.

However, I do not recall Yarker ever claiming to be in possession of those degrees (he may have, I just don't remember him doing so).







[edit on 22-2-2008 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Cagliostro's Egyptian degrees were themselves not legitimate. They were created by he and his wife, and were never authorized by any regular Masonic body.

Well, I'm still looking into researching this, but am also inclined at this point to agree that Cagliostro had in his possession all of the Gnostic "Secrets" of Primitive Masonry.

However, I do not recall Yarker ever claiming to be in possession of those degrees (he may have, I just don't remember him doing so).

I don't know if John Yarker ever claimed such either. But it does seem that he received Initiation from either Cagliostro himself, or at least from those who had been Initiated by Cagliostro himself.





[edit on 22-2-2008 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by orior


I do not know why the real issue most be if it's authentic or not, if by authentic you mean that the members of this organizations are able to improve themselves and their communities, then I would call it authentic, but if by authentic you mean a piece of paper, I think you will get deceived a lot of times.

Many groups allow people to improve themselves. If they do, then I give them a big thumbs up.

But that has nothing to do with technical term "authenticity" in Freemasonry. Here, what is relevant is not whether a group promotes self-improvement, but whether or not the group is Masonic. Yoga classes, for example, promote self-improvement but they are not Masonic.

First of all who said that the Order is a masonic group or has any operative connection with it?

In fact the Order in Adam's era tried to federate masonry, with great opposition of the U:.G:.L:.E:. and the French Orient. Nevertheless to say that Adam thought that masons where ignorant and didn't comprehend the real symbolism of it.

Adam Weishaupt was init:. in masonry after he created the Ill:. of Bav:. , also many groups from the ocult:. mas:., could not account their own relation to masonry, neither masonry could accept this groups because of landmarks.

So trying to establish authenticity to the Order by trying to determine if it's masonic or not it's out of order.

TAF,
F. Orior