Saudi Arabia's soft stance on rape hits a new low

reply to post by The Vagabond


200 lashes for complaining to the authorities for getting gang raped by 5 or 6 guys and then reporting it.yes what a wonderful religion of peace ? that some of our politicians say it is.and these muslim extreamists expect us to volunteer to join their religion or else they plan to force it on us-------------no thanks-------sooner be dead till Messiah ends their misery-----and brings us the government of peace He promises to bring with Him

Originally posted by yahn goodey
reply to post by The Vagabond

 

200 lashes for complaining to the authorities for getting gang raped by 5 or 6 guys and then reporting it.yes what a wonderful religion of peace ? that some of our politicians say it is.and these muslim extreamists expect us to volunteer to join their religion or else they plan to force it on us-------------no thanks-------sooner be dead till Messiah ends their misery-----and brings us the government of peace He promises to bring with Him

It is a religion of peace, the actions of governments does not represent the religion! They use religion as a cover to get away with what they do and the people can't stand up to them because they have power over them and will shoot down people who do stand up!

JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT MEAN THEY HAVE GOT RELIGION RIGHT!!!!!!!! It is WRONG! TRUE Islam is not like this.

reply to post by Snake64_009
Hi Snake, Thanks for the posts. I remembered the verse you quoted by Mohammed. I think it is relavant if you can find others, I'd like to hear them.
My complaint with Islam is that Muslims can live together, one pious and peaceful, the other a terrorist that murders infidels and other muslims in the name of Allah. The good Muslim does nothing to stop the bad one. This seems to apply to woman abuse also.
I realize there are huge cultural differences and a tradition of tribal intolerance going back centuries that serves to hinder progress.

The US has been blamed several times in this thread. That is just denial. And so is claiming that Christianity and Jewdism are just as bad.

The bottom line is if the women in the oppressed countries ever decide they can and will do something to stop the abuse, it will stop.

A good Muslim is expected to be devoted, pious, responsible, and obedient
but yet he can't be expected to behave himself around a woman! It's somehow the woman's fault. No that's a twist! Try to explain that to your kids!

Well if you factor in that mohammed...who is Islam's highest held prophet was praised for murder, rape and pedophilia...would you expect any less from this cult? The worst atrocities these days always have to do with Islam, this really is an evil cult and I'm glad Israel, U.S. and Britain have made efforts against it. I would support any war against an Islamic nation, because it is in their intention to spread their violent Islamic cult world-wide. This can be verified by the recent history of terrorist attacks on a global scale.

Originally posted by laiguana
Well if you factor in that mohammed...who is Islam's highest held prophet was praised for murder, rape and pedophilia...would you expect any less from this cult? The worst atrocities these days always have to do with Islam, this really is an evil cult and I'm glad Israel, U.S. and Britain have made efforts against it. I would support any war against an Islamic nation, because it is in their intention to spread their violent Islamic cult world-wide. This can be verified by the recent history of terrorist attacks on a global scale.

Thats what you think of him. it does not make it FACT. Everyone has there own version of history and the good muslim who doesn't do all this also does not see Mohammed that way.

So no other religion has done terrorist attacks? What about Christians and the IRA...PLUS it is not the population in the countires that are violent people who wish to spread it world wide...IT IS THE DAMN GOVERNMENTS...WHEN WILL YOU PEOPLE LEARN THAT THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT THE POPULATION'S VIEW!!!!!!!!

THe worst atrocities are not done by Islam but rather some individuals! get your facts straight! True Islam is not like that as I keep repeating over and over again!

It is also in the US intention to spread their cult world wide (in the name of their God as Bush always says)....look at what they are doing....

lets hope you and I don't meet on the battlefield then huh



[edit on 17/11/2007 by Snake64_009]

reply to post by Snake64_009


Well considering it's all written in the koran I would call it fact. Not to mention that their law system follows the ways of their prophet, so my guess is that they're just leading on by example. Their prophet was a war-mongering, rapist, pedophile, murderer, etc...that's exactly what they're doing. So it's in every right for Israel and the U.S. to fight these extremists that want to infiltrate free nations.

reply to post by plumranch


Hi plumranch, The good muslims cannot do much to stop the government unless they band together..but they are too afraid to do so and I they have every right to be as the things the government do to people are very scary and unbearable to 99% of people.

Now in my honest opinion the Israeli government is just as bad as the things they have done to palestinians are quite cruel....so many innocents have died due. Yes the suicide bombers have done the same as well....So here the Jews are just as bad.

Ill see if I have time to post up some quotes or links.



[edit on 17/11/2007 by Snake64_009]

Originally posted by laiguana
reply to post by Snake64_009

 

Well considering it's all written in the koran I would call it fact. Not to mention that their law system follows the ways of their prophet, so my guess is that they're just leading on by example. Their prophet was a war-mongering, rapist, pedophile, murderer, etc...that's exactly what they're doing. So it's in every right for Israel and the U.S. to fight these extremists that want to infiltrate free nations.

It is not written in the Quran that women should be treated like that....so where is the fact? And like I said before everyone has there own version of history taken from what they know and there are many books that does not show the Prophet like that.... Yes look at how Israel fights the extremist! They are targetting innocents rather than the governments! And the US only has interest in oil so they don't care about the people.

reply to post by Snake64_009


Then you obviously haven't read the koran if you think it doesn't have passages supporting such treatment of women. Heck, I've even seen Islamic video clips out there instructing how to beat your wife and they also quote passages from the koran or hadiths, whatever. Islam = evil, end of story.

Considering the fact that before the advent of Islam the pagan Arabs used to bury their female children alive, make women dance naked in the vicinity of the Ka'ba during their annual fairs, and treat women as mere chattels and objects of sexual pleasure -- possessing no rights or position whatsoever, these teachings of the Noble Qur'an were revolutionary. Unlike other religions, which regarded women as being possessed of inherent sin and wickedness, and men as being possessed of inherent virtue and nobility, Islam regards men and women as being of the same essence created from a single soul. The Qur'an declares:

O mankind! Reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, his mate, and from this pair scattered (like seeds) countless men and women. Reverence God, through Whom you demand your mutual (rights), and reverence the wombs (that bore you); for God ever watches over you. (4:1)

Taken from www.jannah.org...

The worst calamity for a woman is when her husband passes away and, as a widow, the responsibility of maintaining the children falls upon her. In the Eastern World, where a woman does not always go out to earn her living, the problems of widowhood are indescribable. The Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, upheld the cause of widows. Most of his wives were widows. In an age when widows were rarely permitted to remarry, the Prophet encouraged his followers to marry them. He was always ready to help widows and exhorted his followers to do the same. Abu Hurairah reported that the Prophet said: "One who makes efforts (to help) the widow or a poor person is like a mujahid (warrior) in the path of God, or like one who stands up for prayers all of the the night and fasts all of the day."

So where is the Prophet that rapes, murders and acts as a peodophile?

Just becuase the western culture is different from the islamic culture does not mean that what they do is wrong....


Also here is a link talking about Islam and women:

www.islamfortoday.com...



[edit on 17/11/2007 by Snake64_009]

Originally posted by laiguana
reply to post by Snake64_009

 

Then you obviously haven't read the koran if you think it doesn't have passages supporting such treatment of women. Heck, I've even seen Islamic video clips out there instructing how to beat your wife and they also quote passages from the koran or hadiths, whatever. Islam = evil, end of story.

I have (you should not assume something just because something else is saying somethign opposite to me, after all we should deny ignorance right?), it is just that people translate it differently....For example the beating of women in Surah 3:4(?), the way i translate that is beating is the very last resort against a wife who has done something wrong as beating is not a good practice. Some people seem to think that islam promotes beating due to translating it as beating beign a good thing to do.

Also all the devout muslims around me don't practice any of the treatment of women that you refer to and they too have read the quran and do so on a daily basis. Are they wrong? no they are not, that is true Islam. My dad has never treated my mum wrongly and my grandad has never once even raised his voice against my grandma...


[edit on 17/11/2007 by Snake64_009]

Sigung I believe you are drawing a faulty conclusion.

You conclude that because many nations with muslim majorities have serious human rights problems relating to women, while muslims outside of muslim-majority nations tend to be more moderate, indicates that Islam is inherently hostile to women.

However it must be noted that muslim majority nations have many other common characteristics beyond religion.

Most nations with muslim majorities are not industrialized for example. Non-industrialized societies do tend to place greater value on men because of their physical strength, which is more important before technological substitues proliferate in a society.

Also many nations with muslim majorities are under authoritarian government. Authoritarian government tends to be obsessed with masculinity, and thus both misogynistic and homophobic, because the cult of personality requires a reverence for the "strong man" image.

The fact that the apparent correlation weakens with the change of factors which are not necessarily related to religion, I would conclude that there is a considerable possibility that Islam is not the problem, but the veneer behind which other motives are being hidden.

Christianity justified misogyny once also, yet Christianity was not integral to the problem: Christianity adjusted with society as liberalization in government and industrialization forced social change.

I never intended for this story to be construed as a dehumanization of a religious group that we have been told we are at war with. I consider it an illustration of political problems in which religion is a secondary factor at worst.

reply to post by The Vagabond


Couldn't have put it any better. Well said and true.

It is the strong government who establish all of this against women business and not the religion itself as I have said before.

Originally posted by The VagabondMost nations with muslim majorities are not industrialized for example. Non-industrialized societies do tend to place greater value on men because of their physical strength, which is more important before technological substitues proliferate in a society.

So VERY true. We see these same problems in some of the Christianized nations of Africa and the South Pacific (thinking of the Phillippines) and most of Southeast Asia (various religions.) We see them in Hindu areas of India and in Pakistan.

It is not the religion -- it's the society.

Also many nations with muslim majorities are under authoritarian government. Authoritarian government tends to be obsessed with masculinity, and thus both misogynistic and homophobic, because the cult of personality requires a reverence for the "strong man" image.

True of all of the above places. During the Vietnam war, women were made to walk in front of their men so that they would trigger any hidden bombs (women being to that society much less valuable than men.) Chinese men would routinely drown their baby girls. In Africa, some Christian leaders (in the past 30 years) locked their worshippers in the church and burned them all to death.

The horrors go on and on.

For a good example, compare some of the more industrialized Muslim countries, where such things don't occur -- Egypt, for one. The division between the sexes is far less extreme. Ditto Turkey with its secular government.

Changing the religion wouldn't actually change things... it's the society's norms that need to change. They'd be doing the same kind of thing if they were Buddhist, Bah'ai, Shinto... or Christians.

Originally posted by worldwatcher
Sadly it's not only in Saudia Arabia that women are blamed for being raped. Many cultures have this same backwards thinking... India, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc.. and even sadder it's not just Muslims that demean women like that, Hindus and even Christians will cast blame on the woman.

No, not so many cultures. When was the last time a woman was gang-raped in a predominantly Christian country and then sentenced to whipping by the courts? Can you name one?
Typical wishy-washy thinking to try to lump all cultures together as equally guilty. Saudi Arabia operates under Sharia law - That's where this kind of abomination comes from.

reply to post by Snake64_009
Hi Snake, Thanks for your post and esp. for the link about the Muslim vs. women. I understand better now. Government thing.

Now in my honest opinion the Israeli government is just as bad

Please don't revert to moral equivalency. Saying that Muslims are no worse than someone else does not justify them in the eyes of Allah or anyone else. The end result of this reasoning is war and total chaos because you are saying that if someone else can do it I can too and you know where that road goes to!

Plumranch, I cannot speak for snake, but in my mind it is not a question of justification. Clearly justifying such conduct is the furthest thing from my mind- I started this thread to denounce it.

The issue in my mind is one of identifying causes correctly in order to encourage people to advocate the right solution. The problem does not rise out of Islam itself, but out of several non-religious factors which have made use of a certain peculiar interpretation of Islam. Therefore the most effective way to address those problems is not to fight Islam (in fact that would only serve to reinforce the false connection between misogyny and Islam and thus prolong the troubles of women in Islamic nations which have this problem). The most effective way to address those problems is confront and pressure totalitarian governments and to encourage economic reforms and greater fairness in trade relations with nations whose governments can be pressured towards liberalization.

As for Christian misconduct- the Lords Resistance Army in Africa is notorious for kidnapping children, especially young girls, as labor slaves and concubines.

In Sudan and elsewhere where Arab militias use rape as a weapon of war, black Christians usually disown or kill children of rape and sometimes also abandon the rape victim, because not doing so is seen as submission to the attack. It's not exactly a secret. Google is your friend.

Originally posted by sigung86
Come on. This type of stuff didn't just pop up this year. It's been that way for millenia. I'm not sure there is a Muslim country where women aren't treated badly. If wrong I do apologize. But even if you are dealing with so called extremists, there has to be something in the doctrine that allows them to intepret, no matter how loosely, in such a way that women are treated worse than camels.

I don't think there is a Christian country were women aren't treated badly either, to be honest.

The US, for example, still debates whether a woman president is a good thing. Does it matter? After all, a Muslim country like Pakistan elected a woman Prime Minister whilst the "beacon of democracy" still wrestles with the "problem" of women holding high office.

As others have said, this is a problem with society, not religion. Once the countries modernise, womens rights tend to follow. In Iran, women's rights are increasing year on year.

In fact, the other day, I read a report on Iranian students and in many classes, women represent some 70% of students due to the desire to improve themselves. Men on the other hand tend to gravitate towards earning money straight from leaving school without much forward looking.

The upside of this is that in 5-10 years time, alot of the highly educated Iranians will be female, leading to increased participation in high level business and politics, leading to social reform.

Bugger all to do with Islam, just another case of uneducated people being led by bigoted "leaders", whatever cloak they drape themselves in.

Originally posted by plumranch
reply to post by Snake64_009

 

Hi Snake, Thanks for your post and esp. for the link about the Muslim vs. women. I understand better now. Government thing.

Now in my honest opinion the Israeli government is just as bad

Please don't revert to moral equivalency. Saying that Muslims are no worse than someone else does not justify them in the eyes of Allah or anyone else. The end result of this reasoning is war and total chaos because you are saying that if someone else can do it I can too and you know where that road goes to!

I am not justifying them because this is all wrong but you did state "And so is claiming that Christianity and Jewdism are just as bad. "

Murder is murder, end of. Anyone who does it is as bad as one another.

edition.cnn.com...
The woman's husband is speaking up, but on the conspicuous condition of anonymity.

obama.senate.gov...
www.smh.com.au...

Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have also naturally made their feelings known about our government's failure to directly criticize Saudi Arabia over the issue.

I have to say that this is a tricky issue for Obama to be very loud on, in terms of public perception, since 1. He's running against a woman, so if he "doth protest too much" he seems like he's just trying to keep up with her. and 2. His ethnic background and the false characterizations of his religious history put him in a position where being too quiet could look REALLY bad.

The way I see it, this is a KEY ISSUE in the democratic primary now, whether it becomes popularly seen as such or not.

I'm very anxious to see just how hard these two are willing to fight on this issue, whether they are willing to work together despite being opponents, in Obama's case, whether he is savvy and poised enough to be effective on issues that can be dangerous for him, and in Hillary's case, a test of her character: will she take it as a free small bonus, or will she invest some effort and some image into getting results.