Why are so many Masons on ATS?

Thanks for the informative reply, a star for you

I may appear to be an ass, and perhaps I am,

If you are I can only respond with , " BE THE BEST YOU CAN BE."

My Daddy told me I could be anything I wanted to be. So I became an A**Hole.
He also told me ," What ever you become be good at it."And I'M good at it.

I wasn't contributing

NOW That's a fact Jack.

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
reply to post by stompk

 

Just as a follow-up to your OP, I'd also say that the reason there seems to be so many Masons on the SS forum is just that the anti-Mason nutters come and go whilst the Masons stay on to engage, point out either shortcomings or out-and-out falsehoods in nutter posts and provide accurate inside information (within limitations that is).

I think I can fairly say that nobody with a reasoned axe to grind about Masonry has been sandbagged.

Untrue, i have seen as many anti masons banned from here as i have seen masons!

Though ill give you this, yes there are many anti Masonic nutters running around and many come by ATS, but ATS just attract nutters IMHO incl. me...

To the OP, well dunno for sure, but i do know that they are quite organized when it comes to fighting misinformation and i respect that.

Though when presented with obvious facts they pull the politician stunt, ignoring the fact or attacking the credibility of the writer...

[EDIT] typo

[edit on 22-11-2007 by Tetragrammaton]

Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
Though when presented with obvious facts they pull the politician stunt, ignoring the fact or attacking the credibility of the writer...

Well, that the definition of "fact" around here is sometimes murky at best must be taken into consideration.

I've seen plenty of "facts" posted here that were a complete load of bollocks. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Furthermore, credibility of the writer is paramount when said writer is presenting "facts" that denigrate or accuse another group of wrong-doing. Agreed?

BTW, I'd say "uniform" is a better word for it than "organized."

Originally posted by The Axeman

Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
Though when presented with obvious facts they pull the politician stunt, ignoring the fact or attacking the credibility of the writer...

Well, that the definition of "fact" around here is sometimes murky at best must be taken into consideration.

I've seen plenty of "facts" posted here that were a complete load of bollocks. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Furthermore, credibility of the writer is paramount when said writer is presenting "facts" that denigrate or accuse another group of wrong-doing. Agreed?

BTW, I'd say "uniform" is a better word for it than "organized."

Your absolutely right there mate, and the uniform correction is a better term indeed, though I know that you talk about this problem privately anything else would just be ignorant, and we know masons aren’t ignorant.

Also about the evidence you are correct, I have seen so much BS on this forum and I can understand why it makes you hard, but I have also myself presented you with facts, not anything near as far out but still evidence that contradicts some of the statements you made, and you just stopped replying funny enough.

Anyways just wanted to point out the fact that I have seen masons go over board and anti masons, both are human, still at least.

Sorry for bringing the mason bashing up, it just annoys me when I present rational well presented material and you ignore it…

Peace…

Originally posted by Tetragrammaton
Your absolutely right there mate, and the uniform correction is a better term indeed, though I know that you talk about this problem privately anything else would just be ignorant, and we know masons aren’t ignorant.

To an extent, sure. I can honestly say though, when I am u2u'd by brethren here it's typically a private joke or a stray comment on some thread or post. We don't u2u each other to cook up what we're going to say, that's for sure. The vast majority of what I have to say here is said publicly, and without benefit of other Masons' counsel beforehand. I speak my mind, no one else's.

Also about the evidence you are correct, I have seen so much BS on this forum and I can understand why it makes you hard, but I have also myself presented you with facts, not anything near as far out but still evidence that contradicts some of the statements you made, and you just stopped replying funny enough.

Sometimes my visits to ATS are quite sporadic, and threads occasionally get buried and forgotten in the interim. In the spirit of good faith, if you will point me to the post(s) in question I will review them and offer a reply.

Anyways just wanted to point out the fact that I have seen masons go over board and anti masons, both are human, still at least.

Too true. We are all human, and as such, we all have our moments.

Sorry for bringing the mason bashing up, it just annoys me when I present rational well presented material and you ignore it…

My sincere apologies if you mean me personally. Usually I respond to rational, well presented posts (assuming I'm around), as they seem to be an uncommon offering from the "other side of the fence," so to speak.

As I said, point me to the posts and I'll look over them and reply.

After reading all your posts I have a few thoughts i would like to share.

To begin I am very surprised to see the the number of masons active on this board. I do not have a well defined understanding of your order and I take no stance, or pass no judgment on your organization, at least as of yet.

I have now forgotten the names of the people contributing on this board but their "Sides" are still quite clear to me. I can understand the questions that have been asked, it is strange that masons would essentially run a SS forum...It is funny that so many would openly admit their affiliation to a secret society, one that is openly "closed" to non members, and act like we should listen to your defenses of your actions when you can't even tell us what exactly you are up to...I see it as a slippery slope, surely you can all understand what I am getting at even though I am not the greatest author...

Still I can understand your desire to defend something you are a part of, something that has a profound positive effect on your life. I applaud you all in taking the time to do yourself such a service, most of the people in our society lack the desire or motivation to improve their lives.

In the past I had considered joining the Masons to discover just exactly what you are all about. What prevented me was this:

The possibility that the rituals you perform could have unforeseen / able and unwanted impacts on my person (on all levels). I am sure many masons are ignorant of the origins, intentions, and manifestations of these rituals. Ritual is powerful. and the manifestation of ritual is something I regard with respect.

I am saying that I personally would not participate in ritual unless I was sure of the intention of the ritual and those participating. I firmly believe that this can lead to "changes" you neither see nor can control, and could lead you to contributing to something you are unaware of.

This leads me to my final point. The masons are huge. the accumulation of all members makes the organization powerful simply in terms of membership. While i fully believe that the majority of masons are good people, this does not excuse the entirety of the organization. While i fully believe that MDs and PHDs doing research into medicine do so because they love science and believe in improving peoples lives and even saving them; I at the same time do not trust the pharmaceutical industry.

i am running out of room and time so I will stop here, but I would love to continue the conversation. Cheers, Animal

Because this site can be a breeding ground for naive recruits.

Originally posted by Animal
After reading all your posts I have a few thoughts i would like to share.

To begin I am very surprised to see the the number of masons active on this board. I do not have a well defined understanding of your order and I take no stance, or pass no judgment on your organization, at least as of yet.

There are maybe a half-dozen Masons on this forum trying to dispel the regular regurgitations of drive-by trolls.

Originally posted by Animal
I can understand the questions that have been asked, it is strange that masons would essentially run a SS forum

Masons don't. There's one mod out of many who's a Mason. But were he to abuse the Mod authority, he'd be de-Modded PDQ. There are a number of Masons who contribute to threads but that hardly qualifies as running anything.

Originally posted by Animal
...It is funny that so many would openly admit their affiliation to a secret society, one that is openly "closed" to non members, and act like we should listen to your defenses of your actions when you can't even tell us what exactly you are up to...I see it as a slippery slope, surely you can all understand what I am getting at even though I am not the greatest author...

There's nothing funny about it as it's a simple indication that there's nothing about Masonry to be ashamed about or apologetic for. As for being ""closed" to non members", virtually everything about Masonry has been in the public realm for centuries. Hardly "closed". There's also a ton of crap about Masonry on the web that's there to serve the agendas of those with an axe to grind. I'm sure it'd become a bit of a slog to sift through it all without knowing anything about Masonry so maybe better to ask a Mason and trust your own judgment.

Originally posted by Animal
Still I can understand your desire to defend something you are a part of, something that has a profound positive effect on your life. I applaud you all in taking the time to do yourself such a service, most of the people in our society lack the desire or motivation to improve their lives.

Masonry is about taking good men and making them better. The central goal is to strip away as much of the selfish propensities in favour of actions that will better society as a whole, not just a limited subset thereof.

Originally posted by Animal
In the past I had considered joining the Masons to discover just exactly what you are all about. What prevented me was this:

The possibility that the rituals you perform could have unforeseen / able and unwanted impacts on my person (on all levels).

Absolutely nothing about Freemasonry is at odds with the tenets of the largest religions in the world although the leadership of the Catholic Church takes issue for reasons I wouldn't know, not being a Catholic. That said, there are many and sundry Catholics who proudly and actively call themselves Masons.

As for unforseen, unforseeable or unwanted impacts, all I can say is that every action or inaction has the aforementioned. However, if you mean damning your soul or something in that direction, Masonry is about enhancing your soul and your worth to society despite what naysayers might want you to believe.

Originally posted by Animal
This leads me to my final point. The masons are huge. the accumulation of all members makes the organization powerful simply in terms of membership. While i fully believe that the majority of masons are good people, this does not excuse the entirety of the organization.

True but the same is true of every group of human beings. If you're going to demand adherence only to groups whose members are as a whole above some sort of approach, then you'll not find it in the society of men.

Fitzgibbon I am going to say what i am going to say not to flame you or to insult you merely as my truthful reaction to your post. Your reply is basic at best and in a few situations you failed to even respond in a manner that shows you understood what I was talking about. masonic ritual being the best example.

I understand where you are coming from, really I do masonry is something you love, that is cool.

I am surprised to hear you say that it is not a secret society. All that I have read on the origins and practices of your order still fail to fully illuminate the practices largly because the people writing are either active or x-masons who still are respecting the orders secrecy.

It is still odd to me that masons run this SS forum, and yes regardless of the small # of mods here I have noticed a strength in #'s that makes you all "in charge" at least in an informal fashion.

I do not participate in any blood drinker cult (Christianity or other) or any other organized religion for that matter for the same reason I will not participate in masonry. The effects of ritual as I said in my lst post are powerful, at least. I believe that the human mind, body, and soul can be "programed" without the knowledge of the "I" who lives there. My understanding of masonry is that the rituals you practice are based on very old ritual. Ritual that was largly lost and then "recreated" for the purposes of your order. I could be totally off and if so call me on it, it is only a detail anyway. My point, I don't think that majority of Masons know what is going down and that is a scary idea.

Before I close I would really like to reiterate the fact that I am not trying to debase, defame, or flame the Masons here. I like lively discussion, I find challenging ideas (both mine and theirs) to be a rewarding way to evolve my consciousness. If I cross a line please let me know, other wise,please, lets have at it, in the name of exploration =)

With the high cost of fuel we can all meet in here and have our meetings,think about it,no driving or traffic to deal with,hope that answers question

Originally posted by Animal
I am surprised to hear you say that it is not a secret society.

Others have pointed out that it's a society with secrets as opposed to a secret society per se and quite honestly, I'd say that's a more accurate description of Masonry. I mean realistically, how many secret societies have their own readily identifiable buildings or are listed in the white pages? Hardly a secret society. That and the "secrets" have been available for pushing 3 centuries. Maintaining the secrets (such as they are) is more a test of a man's character than denying knowledge of the secrets to outsiders.

Originally posted by Animal
All that I have read on the origins and practices of your order still fail to fully illuminate the practices largly because the people writing are either active or x-masons who still are respecting the orders secrecy.

By your supposition and from your standpoint, it would seem there isn't anybody who's in a position to say what the secrets are or aren't precisely because they've been in the positing of saying what the secrets are or aren't. Catch 22.

Originally posted by Animal
It is still odd to me that masons run this SS forum,

And looking at the list of mods for this forum, the one ATS mod I know to be a Mason isn't a mod for this forum. So, out of 8 mods, none I know of is a Mason ergo Masons don't run this forum.

Originally posted by Animal
and yes regardless of the small # of mods here I have noticed a strength in #'s that makes you all "in charge" at least in an informal fashion.

You talk of Masons as if we're of a hive mentality or somesuch. If someone comes on the forum and says the world is flat, are you going to call-out everybody who naysays him as being part of some round-Earth plot? No. Why be surprised when Masons will point out flaws or problems with assertions made about Masonry?

Originally posted by Animal
I do not participate in any blood drinker cult (Christianity or other) or any other organized religion for that matter for the same reason I will not participate in masonry. The effects of ritual as I said in my lst post are powerful, at least. I believe that the human mind, body, and soul can be "programed" without the knowledge of the "I" who lives there.

But by that assertion, you presume that each and every Mason is likewise 'conditioned' and must, therefor, be lacking in awareness of it. You have to know that that assertion just isn't sustainable. You also seem to presume much about any "ritual" that occurs in Lodge. I hate to burst your bubble but it just ain't as dramatic as all that.

Originally posted by Animal
My understanding of masonry is that the rituals you practice are based on very old ritual. Ritual that was largly lost and then "recreated" for the purposes of your order. I could be totally off and if so call me on it, it is only a detail anyway. My point, I don't think that majority of Masons know what is going down and that is a scary idea.

And your point would be wrong simply because it's setting up a false assertion which can't be disproved. If I deny that there's anything untoward happening in Lodge, it's either because I'm part of the unknowing mass of Masons or I'm part of the Masonic elite in which case I could not be expected to confirm that something untoward has been going down. As old school and dull as it sounds, Masonry really is about fraternity and fellowship.

Originally posted by Animal
Before I close I would really like to reiterate the fact that I am not trying to debase, defame, or flame the Masons here. I like lively discussion, I find challenging ideas (both mine and theirs) to be a rewarding way to evolve my consciousness. If I cross a line please let me know, other wise,please, lets have at it, in the name of exploration =)

No sweat. Just keep your stick on the ice. Honest discussion is always welcome. However, when it veers off into making Masonic functions sound like something out of "Eyes Wide Shut", expect to be called on it.

Grand design...

Originally posted by Animal
It is still odd to me that masons run this SS forum, and yes regardless of the small # of mods here I have noticed a strength in #'s that makes you all "in charge" at least in an informal fashion.

While it may be fun to claim that the inmates run the asylum, it is far from the truth. The Forum Moderators (which can be found at the bottom of every SS page) have primary responsibility in this forum, and the Super Moderators have additional oversight (typically myself or intrepid as we have long ties to the forum). For the record, I am a Freemason, and intrepid is not.... There is only one other staffer who is, and that particular mod is not a Forum Moderator for Secret Societies. The Terms & conditions apply to all, as does the Secret Societies Guidelines.

Mod Note: Terms & Conditions Of Use – Please Review This Link.

Mod Note: Secret Societies Forum Posting Conduct – Please Review This Link.

If any member thinks things are being done in a manner contrary to posted ATS guidelines, I would appreciate utilizing the following:

Mod Note: Complaints and How to Contact ATS Staff– Please Review This Link.

Hope that clears up any misconceptions.

Interesting discussion.

My grandfather was a Shriner. I've forgotten how that rates among Masons. I believe you have to be a master Mason in order to apply for this. He also had this cool blue ring, iirc.

Can anyone refresh my memory on that and if the ring is part of it?

My dad is an Oddfellow, Tri-links, though he doesn't go to meetings anymore. Are they affiliated with the Masons?

Am I automatically qualified to join the Masons? What are the benefits of doing so? I mean the meeting sound kinda boring if not creepy. I know they do charity work.

Thanks for any help. Hope this isn't off topic, but there seems to be a lot of Masons following this thread.

Originally posted by Badge01
Interesting discussion.

My grandfather was a Shriner. I've forgotten how that rates among Masons. I believe you have to be a master Mason in order to apply for this. He also had this cool blue ring, iirc.

It does not 'rate' in regards to being a Master Mason as it is an appended branch of Masonry but you do have to be a Master Mason to become one.

Can anyone refresh my memory on that and if the ring is part of it?

I have not personally seen a blue Shriner's ring, it may be a personally designed piece. The majority of rings I have seen are either gold, silver or platinum.

My dad is an Oddfellow, Tri-links, though he doesn't go to meetings anymore. Are they affiliated with the Masons?

No they are not although you can be both if you so chose.

Am I automatically qualified to join the Masons?

As long as you believe in Diety and join of your own free will you are. You do not have to be a 'legacy' to be considered a member, just a person of good standing in your community.

What are the benefits of doing so?

Making yourself a better person and helping your fellow man.......oh, and hanging around with the rest of us fun guys.

I mean the meeting sound kinda boring if not creepy.

They are only as boring as the lodge officers permit them to be. We often have guest speakers and events when we are not performing degree work.

What aspect do you feel is 'creepy'?

I know they do charity work.

Indeed we do. It is incumbant upon Masons to help our fellow man, the rewards for this can not be measured in any coin or commodity.

Thanks for any help. Hope this isn't off topic, but there seems to be a lot of Masons following this thread.

Not a problem, any of the Bretheren here are always more then willing to answer any and all reasonable questions.

Fitzgibbon you make little sense and do little to even stay on topic. I must say I thought there would be more thoughtful answers on the part of the masons here. Maybe I am in the wrong thread, maybe you are all overly use to defending yourselfs and the answers have become routine...who knows...

to the mod whose name i have now forgotten, regardless of how many mason mods there are, you all far out number the non mason users as far as i can tell for browsing....the number of mods is beside the point...

reply to post by Animal

Fitzgibbon you make little sense and do little to even stay on topic. I must say I thought there would be more thoughtful answers on the part of the masons here.

His answer did everything to answer your questions??

to the mod whose name i have now forgotten, regardless of how many mason mods there are, you all far out number the non mason users as far as i can tell for browsing....the number of mods is beside the point...

As Mirthful Me just pointed out he is the only mod who happens to be a Mason. If another Mason breaks the rules, he gets warned. If you do a search on ATS several have been banned even, and there is only one other mod who does not oversee this forum. How is that hard to understand?

There is maybe 15 active Masonic members (rough estimate probably less) and maybe 7 or so really active. Out of 100,000 members. Yeah we out number you!

So just so you dont get your panties in a bunch I will answer your questions as well. Though they wont be much different then Fitz's

To begin I am very surprised to see the the number of masons active on this board.

Why it should be irrelevant. Conspiracy? WE come from all over the world.

I have now forgotten the names of the people contributing on this board but their "Sides" are still quite clear to me. I can understand the questions that have been asked, it is strange that masons would essentially run a SS forum

If you mean "run" as in we win all the arguments well then all I can say is thank you!

We are not above the rules as stated above. No one is.

It is funny that so many would openly admit their affiliation to a secret society

It is not a secret society.. thats what people don't understand. My license plate tells the whole world im a Mason.

one that is openly "closed" to non members, and act like we should listen to your defenses of your actions when you can't even tell us what exactly you are up to.

Perhaps if you went to your local lodge and picked up some flyers for upcoming events and charity dinners you would just what we are up to.

I see it as a slippery slope, surely you can all understand what I am getting at even though I am not the greatest author...

Sounds like your affraid of nothing quite honestly.

Still I can understand your desire to defend something you are a part of, something that has a profound positive effect on your life. I applaud you all in taking the time to do yourself such a service, most of the people in our society lack the desire or motivation to improve their lives.

Thanks. And is this admittance to the fact that we are in fact a good organization?

The possibility that the rituals you perform could have unforeseen / able and unwanted impacts on my person (on all levels).

Does not even make sense.. if you partake in the ritual and decide you didn't like it then you can leave.. you have 3 different rituals before your a Master Mason.. and no one would be upset if you wigged out and ran out the door. At any rate, if you didnt like the ritual I cannot see how it could have profound impacts on your personal life.

I am sure many masons are ignorant of the origins, intentions, and manifestations of these rituals. Ritual is powerful.

Ritual is powerful, that is why we use it to create communion. As for their origins and meanings.. we know very well the meanings and origins, and in the Scottish Rite people who would say we don't know the origins of those either.. all I can say is many of them are updated every few years, some completely redone to ensure the message passes in a language and allegory best understood.

I am saying that I personally would not participate in ritual unless I was sure of the intention of the ritual and those participating.

To be given the exact feeling and description of what is to happen during the ritual nullifies it and weakens the effect. IMO anyways.

I firmly believe that this can lead to "changes" you neither see nor can control, and could lead you to contributing to something you are unaware of.

I certainly hope so.. but the changes should be for the best, and what your contributing to is the oldest fraternity in the world, a brotherhood of men and charity. Sound sinister?

The masons are huge.
the accumulation of all members makes the organization powerful simply in terms of membership.

Not so much.. anymore.

We loose (in my state) an average of 1,300 men a year, mostly to death and non payment of dues..

we are declining in number and as the baby boomers age and begin to die off, the decline will steepen significantly.

there are roughly five million recognized Masons. Cannot remember where I read that number, I will see if I can find the source.

While i fully believe that the majority of masons are good people, this does not excuse the entirety of the organization.

This can be said for any organization and religion .. however Masonry its self is not an entity to hold a position, because the government is changed every year by the people.

Originally posted by Animal
Fitzgibbon you make little sense and do little to even stay on topic. I must say I thought there would be more thoughtful answers on the part of the masons here. Maybe I am in the wrong thread, maybe you are all overly use to defending yourselfs and the answers have become routine...who knows...

to the mod whose name i have now forgotten, regardless of how many mason mods there are, you all far out number the non mason users as far as i can tell for browsing....the number of mods is beside the point...

Then I'd submit that you're being willfully obtuse and for that, I can't help you.

no you sure cant. it seems to me that you are more interested in bypassing discussion. you have statements that you throw back at mine but they lack the qualities of discussion. to have a discussion you need to address exactly what it is i am talking about, not dismiss them.

Originally posted by Animal
to the mod whose name i have now forgotten, regardless of how many mason mods there are, you all far out number the non mason users as far as i can tell for browsing....the number of mods is beside the point...

Not true Sparky as both Masons and non-Masons alike will attest that my foot is firmly planted in those that don't adhere to the T&C, no matter their affiliation. Personally I take exception to the insinuation that I'm not doing my job, or in some way being coerced.