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Dissidents: We will shoot more police

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posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by budski
I have to disagree with you there speaker - the conflict has centred around the illegal british occupation of Ireland for the last few hundred years.


In any referendum held in NI, the majority of the population would vote to stay with the UK. That gives it legitimacy.


Originally posted by budski
The "religious" aspect came about when part of occupied Ireland gained independance - what is now southern Ireland, or the republic of Ireland - the british government imported hundreds of thousands of scottish protestants into northern ireland so they would never lose an election, as the 2 groups protestant and catholic would be on opposite sides.


Not true. Eire gained independence in 1922, whereas the "immigrants" as you put it, have been there since the 1500's, if not earlier.


Originally posted by budski
So as long as the protestant imported scots always outnumbered the indigenous people (who were mostly catholic) the people of occupied northern Ireland could never win independance and be reunited with the south.


ethnically speaking, they are the same group of people and have been emigrating back and forth for centuries.

You seem to like this whole "imported" rubbish, but you seem to ignore the HUGE volumes of Irish who left Ireland over the centuries to live in England and Scotland. Hence, as an example, why you have the situation in Glasgow.


Originally posted by budski
This was done for purely economic reasons as at that time, belfast in particular had heavy industry and shipping in particular that was essential to the british war machine.


As shown above, utter rubbish. The North, at the time of partition, was predominantly loyalist and had been for centuries.

Now, some might think that I am just being a Patriotic Brit. Not so. My family is actually descended from Irish immigrants who migrated to Cornwall in the 1700's. There, they intermarried with Cornish people (who are also Gaelic). I just like people to know the truth, rather than half-baked crap that gets posted by some.

fact of the matter is, the majority of the population there wish to remain in the UK. I suppose you'd just like to trample all over their wishes to appease a minority? Or would you have them forcibly evicted?

Not terribly democratic....




posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by infinite
 


Yes that could escalate things a bit.
More the reason to deal with this immediately; Brown cannot afford to dither.
Further acts will only increase Loyalist resentment and I am certain that there is an extremist element within their ranks who will also exploit this or any other terrorist acts for their own personal reasons.


Lol Brown has no spine. He's half the man of Blair and I'm thankful of that.

Brown is completely out of his depth in my opinion when it comes to action and implementing policies.

He's good at spin though.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
Further acts will only increase Loyalist resentment and I am certain that there is an extremist element within their ranks who will also exploit this or any other terrorist acts for their own personal reasons.


The UDA have just declared "the war is over", however, these dissident shootings might lead to resentment (as you just said).

[edit on 14-11-2007 by infinite]



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 02:41 PM
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reply to post by infinite
 


Yes, it was good to read that the UDA have declared the war over but UFF and other Loyalist extremists similair in view to Micheal Stone and Johnny Adair will still try to exploit every given situation.
They view the the mainstream Loyalist politicians as traitors merely for talking to Adams and McGuiness.
It is impossible to overestimate the remarkable job that the leaders of the DUP and UUP played in the peace process.
True, Adams and Sinn Fein did a remarkable job to get the IRA to agree to a ceasefire and decomissioning but the majority of Loyalists were vehemently against any dialogue at all until proof of total decomissioning.

Any attempt to justify another bout of killing and maiming in the name of religion or historical events that begun a thousand years ago is blind ignorance of both the historical and current facts.

The vast majority of Irish people, Southern and Northern, just want to get on with their lives like the rest of us, they really couldn't give a toss about "the struggle".
It is not some romantic cause like it is sometimes portrayed, the reality is about innocent people being slaughtered and maimed for no other reason but to exploit the majority, to suggest any other is romantic, naive bollocks.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 03:12 PM
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i just hope this isn't linked;

Seven found in fire murder house





Seven bodies have now been found in the debris of a house fire in Omagh.

The police have confirmed they are treating the deaths of Arthur McElhill, Lorraine McGovern and their five children as murder.

Detective Chief Superintendent Norman Baxter said a significant quantity of an accelerant, petrol, had been found inside the property.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


news.bbc.co.uk...



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


This is the same stumason who denied that there is a majority support for cornish independance? or that there is an unofficial cornish parliament unrecognised by whitehall? has it's own language, culture and heritage?
In which case I stand by my statements.

On another note, here's the relevant parts of the irish constitution


Preamble (full text)

In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred,
We, the people of Éire,
Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial,
Gratefully remembering their heroic and unremitting struggle to regain the rightful independence of our Nation,
And seeking to promote the common good, with due observance of Prudence, Justice and Charity, so that the dignity and freedom of the individual may be assured, true social order attained, the unity of our country restored, and concord established with other nations,
Do hereby adopt, enact, and give to ourselves this Constitution.


and


Article 2

It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish Nation. That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.

Article 3

1. It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland, in all the diversity of their identities and traditions, recognising that a united Ireland shall be brought about only by peaceful means with the consent of a majority of the people, democratically expressed, in both jurisdictions in the island. Until then, the laws enacted by the Parliament established by this Constitution shall have the like area and extent of application as the laws enacted by the Parliament[1] that existed immediately before the coming into operation of this Constitution.
2. Institutions with executive powers and functions that are shared between those jurisdictions may be established by their respective responsible authorities for stated purposes and may exercise powers and functions in respect of all or any part of the island.

source

So, whilst most people north and south abhor the actions of the violent few, a united Ireland remains a very hot topic.

This is one of the ast remnants of british imperialism, and is a very complex and emotive issue - it does matter to the people of Ireland, but it would be right to say that most are against the violence save a small minority of die hard extremists who basically just want a fight.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 03:25 PM
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Under the Good Friday Agreement, the Irish Republic no longer lays claim to Northern Ireland (and finally recognises it as apart of the United Kingdom).

Under the Irish Constitution, I am a citizen (cause my mother was born in Northern Ireland before the Irish Constitution was altered). So, I understand the subject very well.

In fact, the Republic does not want to Unite because it cannot afford to do it yet. Germany is still paying the cost of reunification. Secondly, a majority (from the South and North) do not want a United Ireland. Some in the Republic want to rejoin the United Kingdom.

[edit on 14-11-2007 by infinite]



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 03:28 PM
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reply to post by infinite
 


Well, I have to say that being Irish, although not full blooded, only about 75%, I see little difference between the Irish,English or Scottish. Now, naturally there is some difference geographically and historically, but that is a side note in my opinion.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 03:48 PM
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This is the same stumason who denied that there is a majority support for cornish independance? or that there is an unofficial cornish parliament unrecognised by whitehall? has it's own language, culture and heritage?


There isn't a majority support for Cornish independence.

I don't ever recall denying there was ever a Cornish Kernow Parliament, or that there isn't a Cornish language or heritage. In fact, quite the opposite. Care to point me to were I did deny such things?

In fact, if you are indeed looking through my posts, you'd see that I do support having Cornwall recognised as having the same Status of at least Wales.

Cornwall is a Duchy and, up until the 1600's, was always referred to as a separate entity to England. There was never an Act of union, nor an official Annexation, so Cornwall's legal status within the UK is questionable.

As for your bit about the Irish constitution, not sure what your alluding too there. They changed it after the Anglo-Irish agreement to not lay claim to the North. The bit you quoted even confirms that Eire will not push for unification unless there is a public desire for such. At this moment in time, a majority (upwards of 60%) choose to be within the UK

The bit your referring to is to do with the right of the occupants of both NI and Eire to obtain either Irish or British citizenship, or both should they choose.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
The bit your referring to is to do with the right of the occupants of both NI and Eire to obtain either Irish or British citizenship, or both should they choose.


infinite has dual citizenship


(just wanted to point out that I am special)



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by infinite
 




me too, does that also make me special?



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by stumason
 


I'll see if I can find the link - in a recent poll, just over 60%



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 04:26 PM
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I know quite a lot of people with dual Irish and British Citizenship.
Though I am English, I have very close and recent Irish heritage, Southern Catholic incidentally from County Kerry.
The Irish are sick to high heaven of "the troubles" and other people mentioning it.

Irish and Scottish have emigrated to each other's countries for centuries, starting well before Scotland was part of a British Union.

The vast majority of Northern Irish wish to remain in The Union.
They and their families have lived in Northern Ireland for centuries.
Why should they loose their right to self-determination and give up their heritage?

As long as people twist historical facts and dwell on the past Ireland will not move forward.
The Irish Republic has seen massive improvements in it's standard of living in recent years, true through massive EU investment.
Northern Ireland has never enjoyed such a period of sustained growth.

The majority of Irish people do not condone any sectarian violence of any kind.
It is inexcusable for anyone to continue to make excuses for these terrorists who use the romantic myth of the republican hero to justify their acts of brutality as cover to further their own personal agenda's.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 04:55 PM
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No support for new republican group in Derry - claim





Republican sources in Derry have suggested that the previously unknown group which claimed responsibility for the shooting of a police officer in Dungannon are former members of the Continuity IRA.

A republican source in Derry said the new group is made up of former members of the Continuity IRA. "This appears to be a very small group of ex-Continuity IRA people who have left that organisation for various reasons. I wouldn't imagine they would have much of a presence of support in Derry," the source said.


www.derryjournal.com...



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 05:25 PM
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Damn. Instead of the IRA being dismantled, it's merely split up into freshly angered groups.

Once again, as with much dispute between Nationals and Independents, the battle is over religion.
In the case of the IRA (and whatever separated branch is leading the attacks now) it started as a religious issue, and has since evolved to include the desire to have the country back in the hands of the native culture.


A group of fundamentalists, who are willing to fight for what they want. Unfortunately, in the face of a National army, conventional tactics are suicidal for the group as a whole. So they resort to dirty tactics, and hence are labeled terrorists.

In the old days, conventional tactics worked. A national military has only a slight advantage over the people; training.
If the American revolution for example were to have occurred in modern times, it would most definitely be fought with terrorist strategies. Otherwise, the people would never stand a chance against the national military.


Should the need for a people to overthrow a government arise today, they would all be labeled terrorists and locked away and/or executed.


So where is the line drawn? Who are the freedom fighters, and who are the terrorists? What separates the new IRA from the freedom fighters who overthrew the monarchy in the US, or the resistance fighters in France killing the invading German forces with dirty tactics?



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by johnsky
So where is the line drawn? Who are the freedom fighters, and who are the terrorists? What separates the new IRA from the freedom fighters who overthrew the monarchy in the US, or the resistance fighters in France killing the invading German forces with dirty tactics?


One could argue that "freedom fighters", such as those in France, attacked military infrastructure and largely left the civilians alone.

Tactics targeting civilians who have little to do with the overall situation could be labeled terrorist.

Also, I would guess that public support for said actions is crucial in determining their worth. As their is little to no support for the IRA or it's off shoots in their operations, one could argue their just a small group of terrorists.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by SpeakerofTruth
 

Same here, I have always believed that whenever a terrorist group asks for a "treaty" they really just asking for some time to covertly rebuild their forces and arsenals.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 05:56 PM
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Well someone has to stop this madness!



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 06:21 PM
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AAHH I missed the good old days. Irish blowing up Brits, Russia pounding its communist fist and Iran pissing America off. No seriously I was kidding. I think its high time that the Brits leave Ireland and make peace with their neighbors. Remember the guy from Braveheart? Its my island



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 09:24 PM
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When I hear news like this...I am reminded of something my "Jedi Master" Terence McKenna once said (paraphrased)...

"If mankind has learned anything from the 20th century -- it should be that wars of IDEOLOGY cause nothing but pain, misery, death and destruction."

Or something to that effect...

Wars over an ideal can't ever be won/lost. The war on "terrorism" is such a war. Why can't we learn from our past to ensure our future is brighter?



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