ask a Bible-believer

Revelation 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Burning people alive, bringing drought, turning potable water to blood and causing plagues will enrage the world.

But they'll be doing something much more painful than these things which the world abhores: preaching rigtheousness and repentance.

Ouch.

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Thanks.

"......and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. "

Which plague and trumpet mentions blood? Which part of Revelation mentions plague?


[edit: shortened quote]

[edit on 19-11-2007 by amitheone]

Well you have "trumpet" and "vial" judgments that turn the earth's waters into blood and smite the earth with plagues, but what you read are the powers of the 2 witnesses aside from the trumpets and vials for it says
"as often as they will." Rev. 11:6
Whereas the trumpet and vial judgments are organized and numbered.

But you might be asking about the following:

Revelation 8:8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

As for the plagues (the word "plague" in the Bible does not exclusively refer to biological judgment, but encompasses a wide variety of judgments)
you can reference the word "plague" and "plagues" in the book of Revelation in a concordance. That should give you an idea.




[edit on 20-11-2007 by Isaiah 24:21]

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
Well you have "trumpet" and "vial" judgments that turn the earth's waters into blood and smite the earth with plagues, but what you read are the powers of the 2 witnesses aside from the trumpets and vials for it says
"as often as they will." Rev. 11:6
Whereas the trumpet and vial judgments are organized and numbered.

I'll go to that later and elaborate more on that bro.

I would like to ask your view on the 5th plague:

Revelation 16 (RSV)

10 The fifth angel poured his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was in darkness; men gnawed their tongues in anguish 11 and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores, and did not repent of their deeds.

...

When the kingdom was in darkness and then pain and sores? It seems too vague to conclude that darkness could have caused this. To me, there seems to be a missing verse which completes the whole picture. For every action, there should be a reaction. What I read here is only a reaction, but I doubt darkness could inflict man with pain and sores.

What do you think caused the pain and sores?

[
Revelation 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
:11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

You might be imagining a problem where there isn't one.
There's a ";" after darkness. They're in pain from the previous plagues as is confirmed by v.11.
Moreover surely darkness that can be "felt" (see Exodus 10:21) exacerbates the pain in all sorts of ways.
This is supernatural darkness so we cannot decidedly conclude that it cannot inherently cause pain because natural darkness doesn't.

Don't worry, God wrote a perfect book. The errors are in our minds.

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
You might be imagining a problem where there isn't one.
There's a ";" after darkness. They're in pain from the previous plagues as is confirmed by v.11.
Moreover surely darkness that can be "felt" (see Exodus 10:21) exacerbates the pain in all sorts of ways.
This is supernatural darkness so we cannot decidedly conclude that it cannot inherently cause pain because natural darkness doesn't.

Don't worry, God wrote a perfect book. The errors are in our minds.

Ok. Noted your comments. I noticed between the Plagues and the Trumpets, there seem to be a repeat of words, sentences, and events. I made the verses shorter below, to spot similarities easier.

3rd Trumpet and Plague

Revelation 8

10 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the fountains of water.

Revelation 16

4 The third angel poured his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of water, and they became blood.


4th Trumpet and Plague

Revelation 8

12 The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck,

Revelation 16

8 The fourth angel poured his bowl on the sun,


5th Trumpet and Plague

Revelation 9

and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.

Revelation 16

and its kingdom was in darkness


6th Trumpet and Plague

Revelation 9

13 Then the sixth angel blew his trumpet, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar before God, 14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphra'tes."

Revelation 16

12 The sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphra'tes, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east.


7h Trumpet and Plague

Revelation 11

19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Revelation 16

20 And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found; 21 and great hailstones, heavy as a hundred-weight, dropped on men from heaven, till men cursed God for the plague of the hail, so fearful was that plague.

--

I would like to know in your point of view, why the stark similarities? Do events repeat itself on the same event? One for the trumpets and one for the plauges? So, in total, there will be 14 judgements? Adding to that calamity, the plauges from the 2 witnesses which they have the power to turn the waters to blood and to smite the earth with all kinds of plagues?

So, in total there are 3 events of judgements and these 3 have similiarities with each other?

Wouldn't this be an overkill already?

Thanks.

[edit: added info on the last paragraph.]

[edit on 20-11-2007 by amitheone]

I love dealing with verses and I'm glad you're putting 'em up there but if you can post them out of the KJV that would be great, and less confusing.

You're right, they are similar, in fact they might be one and the same when similar.
The book of Revelation works like the 4 gospels, different angles on the same event.
Just as the gospels present different angles of the first advent of the Lord, the book of Revelation presents different angles of his second advent.

Already by the end of Revelation 6, for instance, you've reached the end of the tribulation (possibly even of the millennium). Then you revert back to the beginning of the tribulation once more.

So you have less judgments than you get by counting them all and adding them up.

[edit on 20-11-2007 by Isaiah 24:21]

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
Those 6 days are akin to our 24 hour day.

What's interesting is the word used in the Hebrew is used to mean both day and age throughout Genesis. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that that's another factor to consider.

Another interesting thought to consider too is the heavy emphasis on the evening and the morning, the evening and the morning, the evening and the morning.

At one point my mind went and painted the picture of thousand year days. But do they have evenings and mornings?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
excuse me, but why the original KJV translation and not the original greek and hebrew as the perfect word of god?

I'll second this.

KJV is the only english translation that retains spiritual things, according to my shaded sight through the glass anyway. The new translations seem to be dead. Yet that doesn't declare king james a saint either. As far as historical stuff the new translations seem half way decent.


Remember the Lord told the dead that they searched the scriptures because they thought that in them was eternal life, but they only bear witness of him and are not the life itself.

According to the work he's done in me, the book was dead until he made it alive, to me.

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
I love dealing with verses and I'm glad you're putting 'em up there but if you can post them out of the KJV that would be great, and less confusing.

You can actually go to www.Biblegateway.com... and get any translation of a verse you want if it would help. You can even get Arabic if you'd like!

21 فِي ذَلِكَ الْيَوْمِ يُعَاقِبُ الرَّبُّ الْمَلاَئِكَةَ السَّاقِطِينَ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ، وَالْمُلُوكَ الْمُتَغَطْرِسِينَ عَلَى الأَرْض

man........... "Isaiah 24:21"


I must be the smartest person on ats if you think that anything you've said so far is logical, and witty.

firstly, do you think the bible shows decent morality?

To Isaiah 24:21 -

I'll post them in KJV next time. I just got used to using many translations for cross referencing. Force of habit.

Regarding the similarities, I'm glad you've noticed it. This style of writing is not confined to Revelation and the gospels only, but to the rest of the Bible. As you've said, different chapters presents different angles on the same event and they might be one and the same. I call this parallel verses and progressive revelation. That's why when I read some parts of the NT, sometimes I get stuck and the verse seems vague, but when I read the other chapters and found that simliar event, the verse becomes understanable. Very interesting.

--

When we apply this technique in reading the Bible, the book of Revelation becomes understandable already. It unlocks doors.

Going back to the vague verse I've mentioned, the 5th Vial:

Revelation 16 - 5th Vial

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Revelation 9 - 5th Trumpet

1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. 6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. 7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.

8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. 10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.

--

Reading the key sentences here:

Darkness

Vial - "full of darkness"
Trumpet - "the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

Pain and Sores

Vial - "they gnawed their tongues for pain", "their pains and their sores"
Trumpet - "torment of a scorpion", "stings in their tails", "hurt men"

Bringing this together:

The Kingdom of the beast was darkened for the sun and the air were covered by the smoke of the pit. Out of the smoke, came locusts which has a sting of a scorpion. They were to hurt and torment men for five months. When it stings, men gnawed their tounges in agony and pain and they blasphemed God because of their pains and their sores caused by these creatures from the pit.

--

We can see the harmony of the verses now which can be understood clearly. For every action there is an equal reaction.



Luke 21:11 And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

[edit: added verse on the last part and added info on "pain and sores".]

[edit on 20-11-2007 by amitheone]

reply to post by andre18


Well then congratulations, I guess you are the smartest person on ATS.

Moving on,

that's a poorly worded question (and I suspect intentionally so, given your own obvious wit)

The God of the Bible presents and teaches standards which cannot be excelled for righteousness and goodness.


Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
:38 This is the first and great commandment.
:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

You can't top that "morality" as you put it.


Now the Bible is a historical book, it shows mankind what its history has been like and what it will be like, so when you read about the historical carnage and sexual perversions, that's not the Bible teaching you those things, that's the word of God showing you what a world in your image and according to your standards looks like.
That's the Bible holding up a mirror to mankind's face so he can see what he's like and how evil he is.
When a news reporter mentions a murder case, he's not teaching you to go murder, he's just telling you what's going on.
Of course all that is common sense, but people willfully jettison common sense in order to condemn God's word because it condemns them.

WiseSheep,

As I have answered that twice, it's because the original greek and the original hebrew don't exist. Kinda hard using something that doesn't exist, that's why.
God already did the work for us of going through all those manuscripts (which are not the originals) and preserving and handing his wordS (not just word) down to us according to the promise of Psalm 12:6-7.

Junglejake,

I know the site, thank you. I don't intend using something other than the perfect Bible the Lord has already so graciously provided me with at the cost of the blood of martyrs.

amitheone,

I appreciate your willingness to use the KJV, thank you.
I hope one day you will come to see that it is the perfect word of God.

Yes sometimes the Bible does that, but we also have to keep in mind that things different are, well, different.
A plague of boils is one thing (as in the Exodus) and scorpion-like stings from hellish creatures is another.

Paul taught Timothy that Bible 101 was to study differences:


2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.




[edit on 21-11-2007 by Isaiah 24:21]

[edit on 21-11-2007 by Isaiah 24:21]

Isaiah 24:21 -

Yes sometimes the Bible does that, but we also have to keep in mind that things different are, well, different. A plague of boils is one thing (as in the Exodus) and scorpion-like stings from hellish creatures is another.

Paul taught Timothy that Bible 101 was to study differences:

2Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Yes, well noted. Everything should be verified and cross checked, rightly diving the word of truth.

Let us verify and cross check now. Can this technique be replicated on other verses? Let us check then whether this technique holds true for other verses as well.

Let’s study the 4th Vial and the 4thTrumpet.

Revelation 16 – 5th Vial

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

Revelation 8 – 5th Trumpet

12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

--

Reading the key sentences above:

Vial – “the sun”, “scorch men with fire”, “great heat”

Trumpet – “sun was smitten”, “the third part of them was darkened”, “day shone not for a third part of it and the night likewise”

On the vial, the sun gave off great heat so as to scorch men with fire.

On the trumpet, the sun was smitten so that a third part of it was darkened and in effect only a third part of the light reflected from the moon and the planets were given off.

What could have caused the sun to give off so much energy so as to scorch men with fire and great heat? What could have dimmed the sun so considerably so that it only gave off 1/3 of its light?

The only way that the sun can be dimmed this way is through sun spots. Sunspots are the precursors of solar flares and coronal mass ejections which reflect the internal state of the sun.



Video:

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...

That means, the more the sun spots, the more the sun gets dimmer and the more violent solar flares will be ejected from the sun so as to cause great heat to scorch people on earth.

Let us check for other stars which exhibits this peculiar behavior. Our sun is a star by the way.

Dimming the Sun



Quote:

Some stars have so many spots, or possibly a few very large ones, that they grow brighter and dimmer by as much as 20% as they rotate and their spotted sides come in and out of view as seen from Earth. One active red giant star, HD 12545, has a truly enormous starspot. The single spot covers 11% of the entire surface area of the giant star, which has a radius 11.4 times the size of our Sun. This gigantic elliptical spot has dimensions of about 12 by 20 solar radii and covers an area about 10,000 times greater than the largest sunspots observed on the Sun.

Link

...continued

[edit: corrected the link on last paragraph]



[edit on 21-11-2007 by amitheone]

Quote:

“As if all this weren't enough, red dwarfs subject their planets to other challenges. They often display spots far larger than those seen on the Sun. These "starspots" can cause the star to dim by up to 40 per cent for several months at a time.

At other times, red dwarfs brighten dramatically, spewing large flares that can more than double the star's brightness in a matter of minutes. Such flares might damage life, but they might also help it evolve, by increasing the mutation rate.“

kencroswell.com...

--

So, now, we know how a sun or a star can be dimmed and that is through sunspots/starspots caused by tangled magnetic fields.

As shown in the videos, if sunspots are present, solar flares always follow. What happens then, if the sun was dimmed by 1/3 by sunspots? How dangerous are solar flares on this event? Given the fact that the sun was dimmed considerably by 1/3, we can actually know how turbulent the internal state of the sun is on this particular event and how hot and dangerous the solar flare will be. In this event, the sun will spew out superflares never been witnessed before.

Let us check for other systems similar to our sun which eject superflares.

Scorching the Earth



Quote:

“Flares on scales not recorded on our Sun, but seen in stars very similar to our Sun have been dubbed 'superflares' because of their tremendous power. Their energy output is up to one million times greater than any flare measured in the Sun to date: if they were to occur in our Sun they might be capable of causing mass extinctions of life here on Earth. Rather unnerving is the fact that we do not know exactly why our Sun has not produced such phenomenon in the past, or whether it will in the future.”

astronomy.swin.edu.au...

Two Yale University researchers said Wednesday that they have found nine solar-type stars that have erupted in flares up to 10 million times more powerful than anything ever recorded from the sun. There is preliminary evidence for at least seven others, they said.

If the sun were to have such an eruption, said Bradley E. Schaefer, it could possibly cause mass extinctions, plunge the Earth into brief heat wave, flood the planet with gamma and X-rays, melt electronics in orbiting satellites, cause global auroras and wipe out for up to two years all of the ozone that protects the Earth from harmful ultraviolet radiation.

"We found that superflares do occur on disturbingly normal solar-type stars," said Schaefer. "Superflares are 100 to 10 million times more energetic than the brightest solar flares."

www.cnn.com...

--

Putting all these together, this technique in reading the Bible this way holds true for other verses as well, as everything flows flawlessly and with continuity. For every action there is always a reaction.

It is surprising to note that how in the world the Bible got so advance in scientific knowledge? How did it know the sun can be dimmed and how did it know that it has the capability to spew out superflares to scorch the earth? Totally incredible.

If this were to happen, and it will happen for sure, if we found the sun to dim considerably, take cover as the earth is about to be fried.

Luke 21

25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea.

Acts 2:19

I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke.

[edit: added info "for every action..." and added verses on last paragraph]

[edit on 21-11-2007 by amitheone]

Very interesting research.
I'm always cautious not to let our limited understanding of the natural efface the supernatural element but I will definitely keep this stuff in mind.

Yes, the Bible is always years ahead of "science" at any given point.

Thanks for the information. If you have any such insight in the future, please let me know.

Originally posted by Isaiah 24:21
Very interesting research.
I'm always cautious not to let our limited understanding of the natural efface the supernatural element but I will definitely keep this stuff in mind.

Yes, the Bible is always years ahead of "science" at any given point.

Thanks for the information. If you have any such insight in the future, please let me know.

I'm glad bro that it had shed light to you.


As it is written:

Daniel 12

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end

--

According to the verses above, men needs to increase in knowledge first until the time of the end, only then shall the words be opened up and unsealed. We have Galileo, Newton, Edison, Einstein, Tesla, the Wright Brothers, Charles Babbage, and etc. Then comes the invention of the internet, where we can go here and there to increase knowledge even more.

Obviously, I think the time is now because we are increasing in knowledge by leaps and bounds in understanding nature, the universe, the stars, the galaxies, the planets and things around us. Revelation makes sense already in a scientific perspective.

With this, we can know the difference between the natural and the supernatural. Plagues/Trumpets 1-4 can be explained scientifically. Plagues/Trumpets 5-7 are supernatural events. Revelation has mark these events and differentiate it as the 3 Woes. In these 3 woes includes the supernatural rapture/catching up in heaven. Everything is in its rightful order and sequence.

[edit: added info on last paragraph]

[edit on 21-11-2007 by amitheone]