Weird Sumerian Text

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posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 04:57 PM
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Hi all i have been reading up on the Sumerians, there is so much knowledge out there which is truly amazing and a bit fantastical, but still my thirst for knowledge on this subject matter has enveloped me and im keen to learn more.

On my quest for more knowledge untainted by other researchers interpretations i came across a website called the Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature run by a research department of Oxford University.

It offers translations of Sumerian texts that have been studied and analysed and then put online.

etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...

There some good material in there. In my effort to find out more about the Annunaki, i realised there is no written text in any of these translated documents relating to the work Annunaki. After doing more research with help from this website i discovered the Annunaki is later term. The Sumerians referred to their gods as Anuna.

When i put in the search term Anuna i got a huge archive of translations talking about Anuna. One of them has led me here already to find out more and ive only just started reading it.



Enki and the world order: c.1.1.3
The lord established a shrine, a holy shrine, whose interior is elaborately constructed. He established a shrine in the sea, a holy shrine, whose interior is elaborately constructed. The shrine, whose interior is a tangled thread, is beyond understanding. The shrine's emplacement is situated by the constellation the Field, the holy upper shrine's emplacement faces towards the Chariot constellation. Its terrifying sea is a rising wave, its splendour is fearsome. The Anuna gods dare not approach it. …… to refresh their hearts, the palace rejoices. The Anuna stand by with prayers and supplications. They set up a great altar for Enki in the E-engura, for the lord ……. The great prince ……. …… the pelican of the sea. (1 line unclear)
Sourceetcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...


Does anyone know anymore about this passage? The Sumerians always talk of there gods like they are alive, and many people believe that the Annunaki were just men of power and wealth.

Here in this passage though they talk about Enki who is the leader of the Anuna constructing a shrine of elaborate design. In the sea? The interior is a tangled thread beyond understanding.

So if we play to the Annunaki being the human wealthy and powerful tune then you might interpret from the above passage that these people of wealth have built a shrine beyond the comprehension of the people witnessing its construction. And furthermore they are constructing something in the sea?? You'd need more than mud bricks to do that.

Anyway it could just be a myth or a legend, it just doesn't seem that way to me, looking for all and any feedback.

Argos




posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 05:13 PM
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I would say that like most ancient writing, we should try to avoid reading any of it literally. These aren't engineering texts or newspapers, and the people who wrote them weren't all that interested in absolutely truthful accuracy. They embellished, they fictionalized, they took information from oral sources that were confused and maybe didn't even make sense to begin with. Dreams and fantasies were just as "real" to them as anything else. All part of the story.

The passage you quote seems like an attempt to impress people with the power of the particular lord they're writing about. The Lord Enki. There are directions to his marvelous shrine, but it's not clear how they can be followed. "East of the sun, west of the Moon." Very difficult to understand outside of its original context, and even then maybe not so easy.

[edit on 13-11-2007 by Nohup]



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 05:54 PM
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Thanks for your comment Nohup. From what i understand scribes were highly paid for there time as it was new and advanced skill for the time.

They wrote what people commisoned them to, these writings are imporatant to the people who wanted them comissioned, a tale or a legend is plausible, but the more i read the more it becomes apparent (to me anyway) that they are talking about real characters and these writings are chronicles of actual events. A timeline is even emerging as i read further down.

Which lends itself in my opinion to these "deites" (Annunaki, Enlil, Enki etc) being wealthy and powerful. The elite of the time who set themselves up as so called gods in the eyes of the population in return there wealth is used to generate crops and pay for science and learning.

Which in turn produced systems like irrigation and writing and other examples of there culture that has lead to them being called the first human civilisation.

There is still always the question in this theory though of where the wealthy and powerful Anuna got there knowledge, wealth and power?



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 06:01 PM
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www.astronomy.pomona.edu...

ASH.GÁN = ikû
"The Field"; alpha, beta and gamma Pegasi with alpha Andromedae



GIGIR (GISH.GIGIR) = narkabtu
"The Chariot"

members.optusnet.com.au...

The latter paper by the assyriologist Wayne Horowitz is an important discussion of the topic. The Sumerian literary work Enki and the World Order (288-289) refers to two constellations. These are "The Field" (= the Pegasus-square) and "The Chariot." Cylinder B of Gudea (ix, 15) refers to the chariot of Ningirsu ("The Chariot" constellation mul.giš gigir).


Enki was the god of the sea so claiming he had a shrine there is just affirming that/
here in this picture he is shown with steams of water with fish in them



he has a brother too. and if I remember correctly he wasn't the chief God but one of two chief gods depending on which city you were worshipping from. this text isn't really Sumerian. Its Akkadian further proof that if you mentioned the Annunaki to a sumerian they wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about. Annunaki is Babylonian. (



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 06:02 PM
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Originally posted by Argos
There is still always the question in this theory though of where the wealthy and powerful Anuna got there knowledge, wealth and power?


I suppose the old-fashioned way. Accumulation of capital through hard work, intelligence, organization, and kicking the necessary butt. Then once they had power, and were able to hire scribes to record their greatness, they got even greater in retrospect, to the point of becoming gods. "The older I get, the greater I was."



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 06:12 PM
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Thanks for your comment kerkinana walsky but i have to disagree, the text is Sumerian or at least that is what Oxford University claims.

And the writnings of 'Enki and the world order' point out that Enlil, Enki's older brother gave all his power to Enki who was proclamed king and leader of the Anuna gods.



Enki and the world order: c.1.1.3
Enki, the king of the Abzu, rejoicing in great splendour, justly praises himself: "My father, the king of heaven and earth, made me famous in heaven and earth. My elder brother, the king of all the lands, gathered up all the divine powers and placed them in my hand. I brought the arts and crafts from the E-kur, the house of Enlil, to my Abzu in Eridug. I am the good semen, begotten by a wild bull, I am the first born of An. I am a great storm rising over the great earth, I am the great lord of the Land. I am the principal among all rulers, the father of all the foreign lands. I am the big brother of the gods, I bring prosperity to perfection. I am the seal-keeper of heaven and earth. I am the wisdom and understanding of all the foreign lands. With An the king, on An's dais, I oversee justice. With Enlil, looking out over the lands, I decree good destinies. He has placed in my hands the decreeing of fates in the place where the sun rises. I am cherished by Nintur. I am named with a good name by Ninḫursaĝa. I am the leader of the Anuna gods. I was born as the firstborn son of holy An."
Source:etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...


But i do agree if you mentioned Annunaki to a Sumerian they wouldn't have a clue what your going on about. They reffered to the Annunaki as Anuna.



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 06:14 PM
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It was common to talk about gods almost as humans in Scandinavian sagas. Even with regards to wealth -- Thor (or was it Odin?) drank mostly wine as opposed to beer which was a very common drink; wine cost a fortune in Scandinavia.



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by Nohup

I suppose the old-fashioned way. Accumulation of capital through hard work, intelligence, organization, and kicking the necessary butt. Then once they had power, and were able to hire scribes to record their greatness, they got even greater in retrospect, to the point of becoming gods. "The older I get, the greater I was."


Got to agree with you there on most of that statement, but the point i was trying to make with my comment is that it was a remarkable leap in knowledge that took hunter gatherer type societies from hitting each other with sticks to creating writing, language, trading, farming, art etc. They even had a primitive law system.

In all likely hood its possible that the knowledge of these concepts got the Anuna rich and powerful and to the status of gods amoung men.

But then the question would still remain where did they learn this knowledge, as there was no where in the world where most of these concepts had even been considered let alone incorporated into any sort of society of the time.



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 06:25 PM
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I could be wrong, but I think the definition of "god" probably evolved over time, particularly after the Zoroastrians got into attributing human emotions and motivations to large, mythological entities that represented attributes such as "light" and "dark," "good" and "evil," etc.

Most likely, "Gods" were originally just particularly accomplished human beings, who had great power and wealth. Thanks to the scribes they hired, some ended up with supernatural powers in the literature, which would be the equivalent of Bill Gates hiring a team of biographers and making them say he can throw thunderbolts or transform himself into an eagle or something.

The Romans held onto this custom of deifying their emperors and other noteworthy people for quite a while. It's something that still confuses a lot of Christians, who continue to misinterpret exactly what the Romans did when Constantine decided Jesus was a God, or Son of God. Some people just don't get the concept.



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by buddhasystem
It was common to talk about gods almost as humans in Scandinavian sagas. Even with regards to wealth -- Thor (or was it Odin?) drank mostly wine as opposed to beer which was a very common drink; wine cost a fortune in Scandinavia.


Its funny you shuold refer to that i was just reading this in the 'Enki and the world order'


Enki's journey to Nibru: c.1.1.4
In the shrine of Nibru, Enki provided a meal for Enlil, his father. He seated An at the head of the table and seated Enlil next to An. He seated Nintur in the place of honour and seated the Anuna gods at the adjacent places (?). All of them were drinking and enjoying beer and liquor. They filled the bronze aga vessels to the brim and started a competition, drinking from the bronze vessels of Uraš. They made the tilimda vessels shine like holy barges. After beer and liquor had been libated and enjoyed, and after …… from the house, Enlil was made happy in Nibru.
Source:etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk...


This is what i mean about the Sumerian texts im reading it just doesn't seem like they are talking about a myth. A god making dinner for the other gods, detting drunk and playing a drinking game.



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 06:35 PM
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Originally posted by Argos
But then the question would still remain where did they learn this knowledge, as there was no where in the world where most of these concepts had even been considered let alone incorporated into any sort of society of the time.


I suspect that the archeological record is a little weak in locating the precursor evidence of writing and law, since writing is really so great that it would quickly supplant a lot of the earlier less developed stuff. As for where it came from originally, I like to give ancient people credit for being smart. I don't think alien intervention would be necessary.

I would guess that it was the work of some extremely intelligent individuals of the time. There were Einsteins then, too, who were super geniuses. And a smart king would be quick to grab these people up and put their brains to good use, developing language and law, mapping the sky, working to guide agricultural development, and possibly try to predict the future. Chinese language, after all, developed through the use of using cracked tortoise shells as prognosticative devices.

Getting organized, and then somebody having the power to force people to standardize things like writing, money, and measurement, goes a long way toward building a strong, long-lasting civilization.



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by Nohup
I could be wrong, but I think the definition of "god" probably evolved over time, particularly after the Zoroastrians got into attributing human emotions and motivations to large, mythological entities that represented attributes such as "light" and "dark," "good" and "evil," etc.

Most likely, "Gods" were originally just particularly accomplished human beings, who had great power and wealth. Thanks to the scribes they hired, some ended up with supernatural powers in the literature, which would be the equivalent of Bill Gates hiring a team of biographers and making them say he can throw thunderbolts or transform himself into an eagle or something.

The Romans held onto this custom of deifying their emperors and other noteworthy people for quite a while. It's something that still confuses a lot of Christians, who continue to misinterpret exactly what the Romans did when Constantine decided Jesus was a God, or Son of God. Some people just don't get the concept.


Your most probably right that is the same path my limited research has led me down the path of believing.

There are still certain things, especially about astronomy. The knowledge they had of 9 planets in our solar sytem (well 10 because they considered the moon a planet) and the factr that neptune is a bluish green. In regards to astronomy we have only just caught up with what our ancestors in that first civilisation knew.

And then there is still the mystery of all the other knowledge that just suddenly appeared in Sumer all those thousands of years ago, that i have already talked about on this thread so i wont state that again.

It just fascinates me how all this new knowledge and concepts entagled in this one point of the world and manifested into these peoples with there belief structures that we know so little about in the present.



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 07:45 PM
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Enki and the world order dates from 2100bce. that is the Akkadian period, 200 years before the rise of Babylon,the fact that Enki is claimed to be the head God is an Akkadian idea not a Sumerian one. they had a main God An (God of heaven) and his Son Enlil (God of Air) in charge of Heaven and Earth. Enki his brother was God of the sea to them but in this later period is in charge of the Earth as the worship of Enlil was dropped around 2500bce, apparently the fact that he tried to kill everything with a flood didn't do his popularity much good.

Enki's importance in this text proves that it is Akkadian and dates from around 2100bce. thats 400 years after the collapse of the Sumerian civilisation. It is called sometimes in older narratives a Sumerian text because it details Sumerian ideas and mythologies but this was written during the time of Akkad. thesedays things are classified more correctly as Sumerian, Akkadian, Gutian, or babylonian depending on their source.

Basically, the composition is a Sumerian text preserved on Old Babylonian tablets, and many of its traits take us back to the end of the 3rd Millennium, because not only Enki´s temple in Eridu is in full activity, and let´s not forget that Eridu, or Enki´s city, is a very old settlement, where "kingship descended to Earth from the Heavens", but also shows that trade was becoming intense with the countries of the Persian Gulf, with Ur as the capital and the most important trading centre. Moreover, the region of Martu is shown an ally and not an enemy, as shown in the annals of the Third Dynasty of Ur. Meluhha, a city located at the Indian Peninsula (West coast) is mentioned as well, showing that the strength of Sumer was great and that she had allies in all civilised quarters of the known world. Historically therefore, the composition may have been inscribed at the time of the Third Dynasty of Ur, a time of triumph for ancient Mesopotamia in all levels of human endeavour (refer to Lorsque les dieux faisaient l´homme by Professor Jean Bottéro and Samuel Noah Kramer, 1993, Ed. Gallimard, Paris) .

www.gatewaystobabylon.com...

The Third Dynasty of Ur refers simultaneously to a 21st to 20th century BC

en.wikipedia.org...
further to that as we have been over this before and I have provided you with orthodox evidence (which you have ignored) that the Sumerians (like everyone else who didn't own a telescope) only knew of five planets. So now I'm going to ask you exactly where you got this totally new unknown to science information

so please provide a link to an accredited source that says that the Sumerians knew of 9 planets right now

I bet you £10 you can't do it






[edit on 13-11-2007 by kerkinana walsky]



posted on Nov, 13 2007 @ 09:44 PM
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You got me about this story probably being Akkadian i done a bit more research on the website i am getting these translations off.

They say this:


The Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature (ETCSL), a project of the University of Oxford, comprises a selection of nearly 400 literary compositions recorded on sources which come from ancient Mesopotamia (modern Iraq) and date to the late third and early second millennia BCE.
www-etcsl.orient.ox.ac.uk...#


Thanks for pointing that out, there aren't any dates on these texts im reading and my knowledge is not sufficient enough yet to know through characters what time period the writings are from.

But as for your challenge here is a link to a website with a description of the sort of astronomical knowledge the Sumerians possesed that i have been talking about.


Unaccountable knowledge (3):Babylonian astronomy
Babylonian astronomers have long been recognized as preeminent in the ancient world. A few thousand years before Copernicus they realized that the earth and the other planets were spherical and that they revolved around the sun. With this knowledge they could accurately predict eclipses of the sun and moon. Many modern scholars assumed that the Babylonians developed their astronomy themselves, to meet the need for accurate calculations for their complex astrology. Surprisingly, newly translated Babylonian texts indicate that positions and motions of the stars and planets were calculated instead according to complex equations inherited from the Sumerian civilization. The Babylonians seem not to have understood the theoretical basis of these formulas, only how to use them.
The Sumerians had even more exact knowledge of the solar system and its place in the universe than their Babylonian heirs, whom they predate. Their calendar, devised as early as 3000 B.C., is the model for our calendar today, and they evidently understood a number of more arcane astronomical matters.

For example, as the earth spins, it wobbles on its axis; this causes a very gradual change-1 degree every 72 years-affecting which star the north pole points to. The phenomenon is called precession. A Great Year-the time it takes before the north pole points to the same north star again-is 25,920 years, calculated by multiplying the 72 years it takes to move each degree by the 360 degrees in a full circle. The Sumerians understood precession and knew the length of the Great Year-an extraordinary feat, given the lengthy observations involved and the instruments available to them.

The Sumerians were also able to measure the distances between stars very precisely. But how would earthbound, pretechnological people learn to do this, and, even more mysterious, why? Such star maps are clearly a necessity for space travelers, but what use could the Sumerian have made of them?

Photo caption: A star in the southern constellation Hydra and a lion, the zodiacal symbol for the constellation Leo, are represented on this clay tablet from ancient Babylonia. (The Mysteries of the Unexplained, pp.54)
www.pureinsight.org...


How did they know all this stuff?

And it looks like i owe you £10 lol my basis for believing that the Sumerians had knowledge of all the planets was based upon a cuneiform seal with a depiction of a star and planets. It turns out that debunkers of Sitchin have debunked the use of this seal as Sumerian knowledge of more than the 5 visible planets.

And there:


is not a single text in any extant Sumero-Mesopotamian text that says the Sumerians or Mesopotamians knew of more than five planets. There are a number of cuneiform tablets that deal with astronomy, all of which have been compiled and published.
www.michaelsheiser.com...


Thats what ATS is for though, find out the truth, deny ignorance.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 08:56 AM
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that cylinder seal you mentioned is it this one ?



its Akkadian dates from around 2300bce.

The seal is transliterated (the Sumero-Akkadian signs in English letters) and translated in the principal publication of the Berlin Vorderasiatische Museum’s publication of its seal collection, Vorderasiatische Rollsiegel (“West Asian Cylinder Seals”; 1940) by Mesopotamian scholar Anton Moortgat on page 101. This book is in German, so I offer the German and an English translation:

Line 1 = dub-si-ga “Dubsiga” [a personal name of an apparently powerful person[1]]

Line 2 = ili-il-la-at “Ili-illat” [another personal name, this time of the seal’s owner]

Line 3 = ir3-su “dein Knecht” [German for “your servant”[2]]

So the full (rather boring) inscription of VA243 reads: “Dubsiga, Ili-illat, your/his servant.” Nothing in the inscription suggests anything remotely to do with astronomy or planets.

www.michaelsheiser.com...
In fact its been posted here before
www.abovetopsecret.com...
and it doesn't show planets at all but shows the Pleiades.

your link I also think isn't very credible seeing as it is in the most part taken from a book called "(The Mysteries of the Unexplained, pp.54)"
there is no evidence that the Sumerians knew of precession
if you want to know everything that was known about Astronomy then rather than read speculation and fiction based on what people think they knew you'd do much better to just read the Mul Apin tablets which is the entire corpus of astronomical knowledge recorded by the Babylonians
www.geocities.com...
this includes some later knowledge of course but means basically that if it isn't in here then earlier civilisations such as the Akkadians and Sumerians couldn't have known about it
it doesn't mention precession
it doesn't mention rogue planets
and it doesn't mention Alien gods



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 09:10 AM
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reply to post by Argos
 


I doubt the Anuna were gods, as the Sumerian word for god or divine being is "dingir". I doubt there is a linguistic connection between the two words.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 09:36 AM
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they are actually referred to in texts as the Anuna Gods

In those days, in the days when heaven and earth were created; in those nights, in the nights when heaven and earth were created; in those years, in the years when the fates were determined; when the Anuna gods were born



whose shadow covers heaven and earth, a grove of vines extending over the Land, Enki, lord of plenty of the Anuna gods



am cherished by Nintur. I am named with a good name by Ninḫursaĝa. I am the leader of the Anuna gods. I was born as the firstborn son of holy An



The Anuna gods address affectionately the great prince who has travelled in his Land




C.C.Benjamin
as the Sumerian word for god or divine being is "dingir". I doubt there is a linguistic connection between the two words.


the Anuna are named after the great god Anu
Anu is written like this


Dingir is written like this



you see a linguistical connection yet ?



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 10:55 AM
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Thankyou Kerkinha finally the real mysteries of the Sumerians are being got at. That reference to the ancient astronomy book is going to be an interesting read.

The Mayans who were around about the same time obviously knew about the precession though.... that would of been some huge task thousands of years ago. But still possibe.

Thanks for your comments Kerkhina i know where to come if i have any more questions.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 11:23 AM
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the sumerians were 3500bce to 2500 bce. we know this right I don't need to link to evidence do I ?



The Maya civilization is a Mesoamerican civilization, noted for the only known fully developed written language of the pre-Columbian Americas, as well as its spectacular art, monumental architecture, and sophisticated mathematical and astronomical systems. Initially established during the Preclassic period, many of these reached their apogee of development during the Classic period (c. 250 to 900), and continued throughout the Postclassic period until the arrival of the Spanish. At its peak, it was one of the most densely populated and culturally dynamic societies in the world.


bit late to be called "the same time" as they were about 3000 years later.

I can't express the importance of time lines enough. A lot of people would save an enormous amount of time thinking about possible connections if they established the timeline first.
of course if you have time travel as part of your theory then it doesn't really matter
did the maya have time travel ?
did the Sumerians ?
if they did you can bet we'd be seeing a lot better weaponry in their armies than bronze and obsidian swords




posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 12:00 PM
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You got me again i was thinking about whe the Mayan long count calendar started 3114BC i think. There supposed mythical beginings. I didnt know the historical record showed different.

Is there any good website that outline these timelines to put it in any sort of perspective for an amateur researcher?





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