Challenge Match. Xpert11 v MastaG: My Place or Yours? (OPEN FOR COMMENT)

The topic for this debate is "Contact with ETs will be achieved via space exploration by humans, and not by ETs landing on Earth".

Xpert11 will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
MastaG will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 4 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


Character limits are nolonger in effect- you may use as many characters as a single post allows.

Editing is strictly forbidden. This means any editing, for any reason. Any edited posts will be completely deleted. This prevents cheating. If you make an honest mistake which needs fixing, you must U2U me. I will do a limited amount of editing for good cause. Please use spell check before you post.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images, and must have no more than 3 references. Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post.

Responses should be made within 24 hours, if people are late with their replies, they run the risk of forfeiting their reply and possibly the debate. Limited grace periods may be allowed if I am notified in advance.

This is a challenge match. The winner will recieve two ranking points, the loser will lose 2 ranking points, unless the loser has zero ranking points already.

The Member-Judging System is in effect. The total number of stars awarded to each member by readers (counted at the time of judging) will be counted to determine a winner. This debate will have no judge- outcome is determined entirely by star-count.

We have ways of determining when a member has multiple accounts. Any member who attempts to use multiple accounts to influence the outcome of a debate will be barred from the debate forum in perpetuity and will face additional consequences as well, possibly including a permanent ban from ATS.

Although this debate will be allowed to take place concurrent with the final round of the tournament, judging on this debate may not begin until judging of the tournament final has concluded.

[edit on 23-11-2007 by The Vagabond]

Opening statement .

Introduction
The topic at hand is where first contact will take place between humans and other life forms will take place . The stark choice at hand is between first contact taking place here on earth or in outer space. This debate works on the basis that there is life out there. In this debate I will outline why first contact will take place in space and not here on Earth.

Overview
In this debate I will outline why first contact will take place in space rather then here on Earth. I will build my case in part around the following points.
The means that people have or are using to explore space .
The possibility of life on Mars and how it relates to this debate.
I will examine how free will may effect where first contact takes place.
I will also examine a couple of other factors that have influence on the debate. When I look at the likes of life on Mars I wont reach a definite conclusion on some of the issues instead such things will act as direction for my case.

Technical difficulties are still preventing MastaG from being able to post. We should have it straightened out before long.

Edit: The problem has been solved as of 9:15 a.m. pacific on 11/17. mastaG has 24 hours to post. I'm sorry for the hangup. It ended up being a case-sensitivity issue.

[edit on 17-11-2007 by The Vagabond]

Finally got my Fighter status, thanks.
I would like to thank The Vagabond for organizing this debate, and Xpert11 for accepting it.

Opening statement:

The chances of contacting them on Earth...

...in my opinion, are much greater than contacting them in outer space, assuming that they really do exist. (By contacting we presume the ability to effectively communicate and share our cultural views, technologies, etc.). The main reason for this would be their [extraterrestials'] Technological Supiriority. We've been exploring space since 1957 (Sputnik's first launch); and in 50 years we've not discovered any sign of intelligent life. Our lack of technology does not let us travel fast enough to cover cosmic distances.

What about them? Extraterrestials have been visiting Earth since 47,000 BC. According to Wikipedia, some cave paintings in southern France contain images of flying saucers. There have been thousands of UFO sightings, reports, abductions and alien encounters. There are at least 10 alleged UFO crashes documented. This leads us to a conclusion that they may, and most probably are, already here, on Earth. Dozens of theories, of which Hollow Earth and Nordic Aliens stand out.

The difference in the number of alleged UFO sightings on Earth and the number of UFO sightings in Outer Space is considerable. Thus, as considerable are the chances of them contacting us.

The Hollow Earth Theory posits that our planet Earth has a hollow inside which may sustain and contain life (possible extraterrestial life). Presumably, alien bases are located inside our planet with 'gates' at both the south pole and the north pole. The Nordic Aliens Theory posits that Extraterrestials are already infiltrated in our community. So possibly, contact has already been made here on Earth, but we can only guess. We have not searched our own planet thoroughly to be saying that they are not here, let alone searching other planets.

One may ask: "If they are here, why haven't they contacted us yet?". There are many possible explanations for them not contacting us - the Government's conspiracies and cover-ups hiding their contact attempts (MIB, Area 51, etc.), them being our creators and just watchers (gods), now is not the time (we would not understand them if they made contact), they don't need to as they find us of no value (maybe they are just looking after our planet, and controlling our exploiting it, to keep things in the universe balanced in terms of planetary gravity).

a) Their technology lets them come to us, b) they've, presumably, already built bases inside our planet, and, c) possibly, they are among us. These three points, in my opinion, significantly counterweigh and rule out the 'our finding them out there' scenario.

I hope my opening statement is clear enough and I apologize for my English, I am from Russia.
Thank you.

Since we are not looking alien lifeforms here on Earth we wont find any. Other things contribute to this stance but more on those later in the debate.

Where to start ?
In the 1970s the famous Viking spacecrafts took images of Mars and soil samples from the red plant. Scientific tests were conducted on the soil samples with the results varying. There has been or is debate over the results of the experiments . Given that the Viking missions purpose was to determine if there is life on Mars the voyages support the idea that humans eyes are focused on space.

Although its primary mission isn't to find life the probe known as Rosetta who's destination is the comet Comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko further reinforces my point. Rosetta was launched in 2004 and will take ten years to reach Comet 67P barring any hiccups that is.

I wish to acknowledge my opponents points that he/she raised I intend to deal with them in my next post.




source
source
source

Unfortunately, I've not quite caught what's with Rosetta. It's just another space mission to another planet, which, again, will most probably bring no results... ...maybe microbes like the Viking did, but that's not contact. I once again wish to clarify one of the main points that we're debating on - contact (the ability to effectively communicate and share our cultural views, technologies, etc. with ET intelligence). And, to add, at no point am I being sceptical about contact with ETs in outer space, my position is that we have a better chance of contact searching at our place [Earth].

You have a point about us not looking on Earth, Xpert11, and that's very sad. With billions being spent on exploring the space around our planet, so little is done to research this planet. Where are the great expeditions to the Poles? So many theories that point to the existance of some other life forms, probably ET intelligence, on our Earth, yet our governments' budgets are all into space programs. Why search out there, when there is proof that they might be here!

I would like to point out some our futile attempts to contact intelligent ET lifeforms throughout history.



* SETI (Search for Extra-Terrestial Intelligence) (in space, not on Earth). Since 1960 the project, or rather movement, now, has been trying to percieve (or rather, recieve) information from outer space, and possibly reply back. Except the infamous "Wow!" signal - nothing. Since 1999 the SETI@home world network started working. Today's global SETI@home usercount is over 715,000 computers! And yet we have recieved nothing. If they did want us to recieve something - we would have long had recieved it, don't you agree? They are either hiding, which means that we won't be able to contact them anyhow, or they use some different form of what we call information. The METI/CETI have had no results either.

* Voyager and the Pioneer probes are out there since the 1970's - any luck? The Arecibo Message, The Teen-Age Message, the Cosmic Call Message - have they had success? If these were recieved and understood by ET intelligence they maybe simply laughed at them or didn't understand them.

* Gliese 581c - a recently discovered habitable extrasolar planet that is the only closest planet able to host life as we know it, is 20.4 light years away from our planet. Until one of our spaceships arrive there we're not going to be here to contact them. Yes, there are other planets that might contain life, maybe even in our solar system. I've already mentioned our lack of technology to be able to discover something yet. If there's life on the Moon, and I believe there is, it is so well masked and protected that we may never find it, no matter how many of John Lear's Moon images we look at - our Governments just cover everything up. One day, the ETs will simply 'bust' into our atmosphere and introduce themselves.



Besides, if extraterrestial life exists in a parallel universe, in another world, then it becomes simply impossible to contact them using our space ships and space programs. Until we find a way out of this universe or dimension, we have no possibility to contact them. More about the parallel universe theory: Signs of Parallel Universe.


In my next reply I will once again attempt to prove the fact that they are here and will make contact here, given that we both believe in UFOs' and ETs' existance.
Thank you.

I wont try to debunk my opponents assertions about technology advanced life forms existing beyond Earth and other ideas because this debate does rely on an unproved assumption to begin with although I will have to deal with issues surrounding alien life forms initiating first contact here on earth . I will however make the case that the media has influenced people perceptions about life in outer space as well as dealing with life it self. Later on in the debate I will explain why despite looking in the right place why people have yet to find any solid proof of life beyond this Earth.

Response to opening post.
Lets get to the heart of the issue and the false assumption that is often made. When first contact takes place it could well be between humans and a life form that is less developed in evolutionary then we are.
So why do people assume that first contact will take place between humans and a more advanced species ?
Well the answer lies in media influence which includes the likes of Hollywood movies . The media can influence anything from politics to a country's justice system. A simple Google search revels the extend that media influence can have. In movies we always see advance life forms making contact with earth.
So it is hardly a great leap to say that the media and its extensions have put preconceived notions in a lot of peoples minds .

Should a parallel universe exist there is no reason why when other life forms cross over that they shouldn't do so in space .

Life
Now I must address the very essence of life itself. Non Cellular life or life without cells can exist .
Following along these lines you have Extremophiles. Extremophiles are organisms that are relatively undeveloped but can survive in hostile environments. When such life is discovered they will be sharing there naturally occurring culture with us. Hahaha
As communicating with other life forms well we have yet to be able to communicate with other species here on earth little .
There are a lot of factors that could be at work . But one thing is worth bearing in mind is that people haven't figured how to communicate with other species here on earth little alone life forms from other worlds and no training your dog doesn't count. So until first contact takes place issues such as communication and technology that the aliens have are dead issues.

Summary
So putting aside the assumption that this debate is founded upon when you look at the ability to reach into space and what has been discovered so far it is far more likely that first contact will be between a spacecraft and a some less developed form of life.

source
source
source

Dear Xpert11,

For the 3rd time I would like to point out my defenition of "contact with alien lifeforms":

MastaG: ...the ability to effectively communicate and share our cultural views, technologies, etc. with ET intelligence...

And you have acknowledged my defenitions:

Xpert11: I wish to acknowledge my opponents points that he/she raised I intend to deal with them in my next post.

I have no idea how we are to share our cultural views and knowledge with Extremophiles. We've already found 'alien life' in the form of microbes on Mars, etc., but that is not 'contact' the way I defined it.

What you have brought up as one of your points in your reply above, in my opinion, proves not the fact that contact is more likely to take place via space exploration.

Xpert11: When first contact takes place it could well be between humans and a life form that is less developed in evolutionary then we are.

Sure, that is correct. We could stumble upon ape-like looking beings, with a relatively undeveloped language and still find a communicate effectively. But with microbes and viruses - I don't think so.

Xpert11:So why do people assume that first contact will take place between humans and a more advanced species?

Because the idea of finding life on other plantes just faded away with time. Almost half a century of searching without results. People gave up, and are just waiting for them to come, because it is evidently more likely to occur (which proves my point of this whole debate)! And if they come before we find them - this means that they are probably a more advanced species.


We, from the beginning of this debate, are assuming that intelligent life in outerspace exists. Otherwise we'd not be debating on this topic. Plus, the debate has two sides: Contact Here and Contact There. If you are referring to such inferior lifeforms as viruses how can they Contact us Here?

Unfortunately, I'm having a really hard time trying to find something in your replies that prove that contact (as I've defined and as you've acknowleged) via space exploration is more likely to occur. You are mentioning space missions, non-cellular life-forms, and the media - what do these prove?

Thank you.

Third rebuttal

MastaG I don't accept your definition of first contact the only thing that I accept for the purposes of this debate is that other life forms exist beyond this Earth nothing else is assumed. I acknowledged the points you made to avoid the impression that I was ignoring them rather then agreeing with what you had said.

The reason that we have yet to encounter life in space is the sheer size of the universe itself. One estimate put the size of the universe as the 156 billion light-years and that is width alone.
So given the sheers size of the universe it is much more likely that first contact will happen out in space. Put another way if two people are walking across a large sporting field they are more likely to run into each other then they would if they were just on the side lines. Even other species with advanced space craft that could travel faster then the speed of the light the odds are staggering that they would stumble upon Earth.

Media influence via the likes of Hollywood movies has created the idea that first contact will be between humans and a more advanced species this notion isn't based on anything other then friction. From the information available it is only reasonable to conclude that first contact will be between humans or man made spacecraft and a less developed life form.

source

Then I must apologize for the misunderstanding that I've had. This radical turn of the 'plot' obliges me to put forward proof of these alternative, non-intelligent, forms of life present here on Earth; and they've been discovered already, and made "contact" with.

But first I would like to comment on your football field example and apply it to real-life.

Xpert11 said: Put another way if two people are walking across a large sporting field they are more likely to run into each other then they would if they were just on the side lines.

You've just represented two civilizations by two people and said that these people are walking across a large sporting field [our universe]. I do not see two whole civilizations exploring the Universe, I see individuals, trying to cover the gigantic space around us. Most part of our civilization is in fact on the side line, here on Earth. And provided that extraterrestials are searching for our life, it will most probably have a much easier time finding a sideline with a whole civilization, then a one minute space ship in the middle of nowhere in space. We've been trying to walk across this "large sporting field" for nearly half a decade, have we and them met? On the other hand there were thousands of UFO sightings proving that they may have found us already, on the "sideline". Think about the following scenario: a small child gets lost in the woods, a search party is looking for him. They will definately have a better chance (excluding good and bad luck, of course) of finding him if he stays on one spot. That is why our parents used to tell us that if we lose sight of them in the park we should just stay there and not wonder about looking for them. I hope you've 'untangled' all this and got my point behind it.

Alternative Alien Life-form or Alternative Biochemistry

Alternative biology is the study of theoretical or non-traditional life forms such as acellular life, non-carbon-based life, extraterrestrial life, cyborg life, or artificial life. It also considers the earliest theoretical forms of life on Earth, such as RNA life or Iron-sulfur life which may have been the earliest organisms. Known biological entities which may not always be considered life may also be considered in alternative biology such as viruses and plasmids.

Source: Alternative Biology

Extraterrestial life, or alternative alien life-forms, seem to exist on Earth. These two articles outline the basic theory behind the presence of alien lifeforms on Earth.

April 2005 (Volume 5, Number 2) issue of Astrobiology "Finding a Second Sample of Life on Earth" and Aliens Among Us

This 6 page Article called Are Aliens Among Us? also quite clearly explains the whole 'aliens on earth' theory.

And indeed, basing on alternative biochemistry, we do find accounts throughout history evidencing in the presence of alternative life-forms, possibly extraterrestial, on Earth. (I apologize for not providing links, as I'd be running well over the limit of 5 sources per reply. These accounts were documented and reported on major scientific news websites).

2003 - New Life Form Found in Mars-Like Conditions - California - research founded by NASA
2004 - New Signs Of Life Found At The Poles - by BAS and Scripps Institution of Oceanography
2004 - Signs of Life Found in Ancient Lava
2004 - Exobiological Origin Of Bizarre Form Of Life Found In Venezuela's Cave - found by Charles Brewer Carias
2005 - Unusual Life Forms Found At New Hydrothermal Vents In Atlantic - research founded by NASA
2006 - Extraordinary life found around deep-sea gas seeps off New Zealand coast
2007 - Bizarre New Form of Life Found in Arctic Ocean
2007 - New sea life found near Philippines

I once again apologize for the lack of links, all these articles can by 'googled' for easily.


Conclusion: Inferior alien life-forms may well exist on Earth and, as one of the articles quoted: "It [alien life] could be right under our noses, or even in our noses".

Thank you.


This post has been edited to remove a board-code error. Both sides are entitled to request edits. Edit requests should not be viewed unfavorably- it happens. Vagabond

[edit on 21-11-2007 by The Vagabond]

Last Rebuttal
First I will deal with MastaG real life example . The example under most circumstances would stand up well expect for in this case . In this case when you factor in the size of the Universe it is possible that other life forms could come with in what would be considered close to Earth and never find us.


Beyond this point I don't see where MastaG is going with his/her line of thinking. By MastaG own definition of first contact humans will allow communication to take place along with the exchange of cultural and technology. This cannot take place with the life forms that are described in the above post.

Now many different animals have evolved differently from Humans . For example birds evolved from dinosaurs and so by MastaG logic birds would have to be considered aliens. No doubt the Earth was a very different place millions of years ago. It is worth noting that An extraterrestrial is defined as a life form or being that originated from space. So any life forms that have evolved on Earth simply don't fit into the notion of first contact.

Free Will
I now suggest that life in outer space may not be able to reach us because of the lack of free will to do so.
Other then the size of the universe that I have already dealt with there are a lot of unknown factors at work here . We have no way of knowing if there are unknown factors that prevent more advanced life forms from discovering or coming to the Earth. For example we have no way of knowing that if more advanced life forms even have the desire to make first contact with us out in space little alone here on earth . The degree to which people have free will falls beyond the scope of this topic but I do ask that the reader bear this factor in mind when dealing the subject matter at hand.

source
source
source

Xpert11 said: By MastaG own definition of first contact humans will allow communication to take place along with the exchange of cultural and technology.

I've already explained and proved the scenario of my first defenition - contact on the intelligent level - more chance of them coming here. Case closed as Xpert11, without debunking my ETs on Earth Theories, just says that he does not agree with my defenition and gave his own definition of contacting alternative life-forms:

Xpert11 said: Non Cellular life or life without cells can exist... ...When such life is discovered they will be sharing there naturally occurring culture with us.

So, I gave in to your defenition of contact - contact on the non-intelligent level - and proved that here on Earth we also have such alternative life-forms, which could have come from outer space with metiorites, etc. Proving, again, my point that contact (as you see it) here with alien lifeforms may have already occured aswell.

Evidence of Ancient Martian Life in Meteorite ALH84001
Ancient meteorite may point to life on Mars

There you go... contact made! Way before Xpert11 found them somewhere in space...

Xpert11 said: For example birds evolved from dinosaurs and so by MastaG logic birds would have to be considered aliens.

With all due respect, but I have a really strong feeling that you've read none of the sources (articles in my post) I've mentioned in my 3rd reply, that's a pity.

I believe that I have more or less successfully proved the fact that any type contact (both the type defined by me, and the type defined by Xpert11) has probably already been made.

Thank you for the debate, Xpert11. I will be eagerly waiting for your conclusion.

Closing Statement.

You cant have your cake and it to. There is no conclusive evidence that ALH 84001 brought life from Mars with it when it arrived here. First of all MastaG defined first contact as happening between humans and a species that would be able to share there cultural and technology with us . Later on this changes to finding life that has evolved here on Earth.

As for the notion that governments are covering the fact that first contact with advanced life forms as taken place it is strange that visitors to this plant would allow that to happen.
Besides why would more advance life form want to visit Earth ?
We humans kill each other on a regular basis's , we pollute are only home e.t.c such things hardly make Earth an inviting place. Lol

When you debate a topic that is based upon an assumption to begin with you do have to give a little lee way but beyond that you cant continue to build your case on unproven claims. Admittedly very few things can said to be a certain in this debate but based on what has been presented the only logical conclusion is that first contact will take place in the space.

I wish to thank MastaG for being a worthy opponent and for coming up with this topic in the first place. My thanks also go to the The Vagabond for running the debate forum which this htread appears in .

source

Closing Statement:

Do you believe in UFO's?

I have brought up arguments to back up my point of view, i.e. contact will (or might have already) occur here on Earth. I've argumented based on my defenition of the word "contact" (1st and 2nd rebuttal), and then based on Xpert11's defenition of the word contact (3rd and 4th rebuttal). I've not changed my point of view whatsoever; I just tried to prove that contact with intelligent beings and contact with inferior beings will more likely occur here on Earth. Unlike, Xpert11, who kept proving contact with inferior beings and never even thought about intelligent life. One could have mentioned our Moon as a presumed alien base, for a start, that's outer-space and we could have found them... I can think of many more points that Xpert11 could have mentioned to get a really good boost on his viewpoint of the debate.

I'm really surprised that Xpert11 has finally decided to reply to my "advanced ETs" post (1st rebuttal), in his closing statement. And even far more surprised that he is getting his 'stars' from, I believe, "nowhere" (i.e. friendly-votes).

The information provided by Xpert11, in my opinion, has had very little impact on the arguments of his/her point of view. But nevertheless, I would like to thank my opponent for a smooth-running and very interesting debate! And The Vagabond for organizing it.

Thank you.

P.S. "Debate, anyone?"

This thread is now open for commentary by any fighter. Readers are encouraged to award stars to the posts they felt were decisive. The final tally will be made Monday evening.

Hi guys,

I read your entire debate. My question to you would be: How did you come up with this as a debate topic? What is its significance? What difference would it make if we contact ETs here or elsewhere? Thanks in advance for the reply.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
How did you come up with this as a debate topic?

The topic came about more or less randomly when MastaG and I were in ATS chat.

What is its significance?

Well clearly there would be proof that there is life beyond this earth. Also some religious interpretations would also be debunked.

What difference would it make if we contact ETs here or elsewhere? Thanks in advance for the reply.

Certainly if first contact took place in outer space it would bar the theory that the life forms evolved after the likes of a meteor hit earth. There are a lot of unknowns including how advanced the life forms would be and so on.

I applied a star to MastaG's third post for the following quote:

We, from the beginning of this debate, are assuming that intelligent life in outerspace exists. Otherwise we'd not be debating on this topic. Plus, the debate has two sides: Contact Here and Contact There. If you are referring to such inferior lifeforms as viruses how can they Contact us Here?

I feel that MastaG stayed true to the debate topic and demonstrated a bit more knowledge throughout the course of the debate. xpert11 did well with his arguements, but strayed a bit from the subject matter, which did not allow for a fluid proposal of his position.

[edit on 24-11-2007 by MemoryShock]

[edit on 24-11-2007 by MemoryShock]

To be honest, I had hoped you two would go after eachother a bit more.

I awarded stars to one of Xpert11's posts and two of MastaG's.

I had to give Xpert11 credit for taking the gambit of talking about lower life-forms and backing that up several times, but ultimately I didn't find it convincing enough to award more stars.
The point on preconceptions created by Hollywood was valid but it didn't feel important enough to feature quite as heavily as it did. Xpert11 cheated himself a bit by not making longer posts and making his arguments a bit more involved.

I question MastaG's decision to disown SETI- I was surprised he didn't play up the WOW signal and take ownership of that as an example of aliens making contact with us on Earth- although it isn't an alien ship landing here, it is definately aliens reaching out to Earth while humans are only waiting and watching. MastaG may have been lucky that Xpert11 did not see fit to accept the gift of SETI ownership that MastaG offered him, because that would have been worth stars I think.

MastaG did score points by taking control of the debate, dictating the definition of contact early on and by going on the attack against the validity of human efforts in space. His willingness to rebut Xpert11's arguments more quickly than Xpert did his was also decisive.

I'd call it a narrow win for MastaG. MastaG showed a very sound foundation to build on as a debater and I'll be very interested in seeing how his style develops with experience.

I know and respect xpert11's posting, so I don't want to sell him short, but something seemed off this time. He may have underestimated the depth of interest in the topic.

I agree with TheVagabonds summation. I too would give the nod slightly to MG...

I was disappointed that the fighters did not go more in depth with this topic... Having no character limits, the debaters were free to express their opinions, facts and logic to the tune of 10K characters and yet neither one got close that I could see..

Semper