Past Civilisations - Convince me WHY they didn't exist

good discussion about why Michael Cremo isn't an expert on anything here
www.talkorigins.org...

reply to post by kerkinana walsky

Catal Hoyuk was never seen as a self contained civilisation of any kind please link to a source that claims this. You are guilty of what you just accused academics of

The source is in the word civilization!
It has several meanings because over time the idea of it has changed.We now see civilization as a vast area or race of peoples,but a city (or village or town) that has no known connection with the outside world,yet has religion,writing,technology etc is a self-contained civilization.

civ·i·li·za·tion –noun.
1.an advanced state of human society, in which a high level of culture, science, industry, and government has been reached.
2.those people or nations that have reached such a state.
3.any type of culture, society, etc., of a specific place, time, or group.
4.the act or process of civilizing or being civilized.
5.cultural refinement; refinement of thought and cultural appreciation.
6.cities or populated areas in general, as opposed to unpopulated or wilderness areas.
7.modern comforts and conveniences, as made possible by science and technology.

they are on the list because you posted information from that source as I already explained. Go back and read my earlier post its very clear why i mentioned them

I have posted information from none of those sources actually.Though i have heard of Sitchin,Blavatsky and nobody i have never read any of their work.

well I don't believe you sorry. You linked to world mysteries on this post and punlished an extract. that is not proper research.

I never said it was proper research.But it is a starting point for people wanting to find out more.
And you don't believe this,

is man made???

the fact is that the indian vimana text you are talking about was not an ancient one it was channeled

The Vymanika Shastra was first committed to writing between 1918 and 1923,

From your link.
At that time,over half of what is in these texts was indiscovered or impossible by the technology of that time.

a dodgy website (world mysteries)

Whats dodgy about it?
It gives information about anomalies and discoveries that have been made/found.

the Romans were capable of moving stones that weighed up to 1000 tonnes with no technology

Err,they obviously had the knowledge and the technology to do such a thing!

the thunder stone is officially the largest stone ever moved by man

Unlike the Thunder Stone this was carved by man and weighs an estimated 2000 tonnes.

Wow. I guess you didn't study Plato in school. In the two dialogues where Atlantis is discussed, it's to expand on his ideas as presented in The Republic...

Timaeus and Critias (the texts) are responses to a prior talk by Socrates about ideal societies,Timeaus and Critias agree to entertain Socrates with a tale that is "not a fiction but a true story."
So both texts can be linked to the Republic,but the story within Critias is the story of Atlantis (its creation etc) and its war with Athens.

Originally posted by cormac mac airt
Hi RD,

It is my understanding that many of the crystal skulls have been debunked as 19th century forgeries as evidence of a jewelers drilling eguipment had been found on them. The discovery of the main one, sometimes called the Skull of Doom, is undocumented by its alleged founder and is of Brazilian Quartz, not found in Mayan areas.

I wasn't talking about any crystal skulls, some one on this thread made a post about a skull 130,000-150,000 years old that was a homo sapien.

If the pyramids were built as is believed by science, then it is possible that electricity played a part. However, if the pyramids were created level by level using a ramp then the insides would have been opened to the outside until the last courses of the top were added. Lighting from the inside would have been unnecessary.

Well the official metanarrative of human history we have, doesn't believe these people would have the know how for electricity. To me this points that a past civilization may have had it, and even more advanced stuff.

reply to post by kerkinana walsky

good discussion about why Michael Cremo isn't an expert on anything here

Never been interested too much in his Human Devolution: A Vedic alternative to Darwin’s theory,but the book Forbidden Archeology shouldn't be dismissed.Nearly all the things he talks about are factual anomalies,he hasn't made them up!
Thats the interesting thing with the 'fringe' historians,the structures,anomalies etc etc are all real! They just have a different interpritation on them!

reply to post by kerkinana walsky



The Lumerian expedition will consist of trusted and dedicated individuals. The announcement of the time and place of the expedition will not be released for security purposes and to prevent artifact looters.

It is a marshmellow world alright most grocery stores carry them in all different colors, shapes and sizes. When channeling make sure you are tuned to the correct channel. Rik Riley

For anyone interested,here's some good sites concerning ancient technology.

Sorry RD, guess I jumped at the word skull. First thing coming to mind being peoples stories about the crystal skulls. Not sure what your question was about the skulls. Actually the Omo Kibish skulls date to c.195,000BC and the Herto skulls date to c.160,000BC. Don't know of any relation between them and the Caucasian mummies found in China, which are believed to be about 4000 years old.

The Baghdad battery is only around 2200 years old and rather crude. Would only put out about 2 volts. Good for electroplating but not for much else. If what looks like a lightbulb in an Egyptian picture actually is a lightbulb it is ridiculously large to have been used in the pyramid chambers and I haven't seen any indications of an Egyptian battery dating to c.2500BC. Would help if the Egyptians would have mentioned in their texts of using "smokeless light" or some such to light their way. I think this is a case of interpreting things in light of current knowledge instead of in how they would have been interpreted back then.

Originally posted by kerkinana walsky

Originally posted by rikriley

My discovery of Lumeria was purely by accident I had been scanning the planet Mars for thousands of hours of the many satellite and ground zero missions. Some how I knew I was picking up on a digital code that was being programed into my brain to aid me in seeing in 3D verses 2D or 1D. The camouflaged or stealthed images on Mars that I was able to pick up on and see from photos were I believe due to the tatooed grid and geometric hidden patterns on Mars I was programed and have learned to see.

yeah thats cool I believe you
I channeled some information that the planet earth is actually a giant marshmallow but the new world order conspiring with two pan dimensional mice have hidden its real geology by using stealth techniques and origami and we're whats left of invaders from the planet zarquon.
of course I can't prove this until I have launched some expeditions back to zarquon to get the evidence

can anyone help me because I didn't channel the information of Zarquons actual location
all i know is that its out there somewhere
along with the truth

[edit on 14-11-2007 by kerkinana walsky]

that's just rude Kerkinana

Always respect others

[edit on 14-11-2007 by srsen]

jakyll


In your latest post, that obolisk you have lying on its side would truly have been the largest in the world, but it cracked while it was still be carved out, hence it was never quite finsihed and still lies in the quarry, its a different angle but im pretty sure its that one, and thats why it isnt the largest ever moved, because it was never moved.

Originally posted by Tenebrous
jakyll


In your latest post, that obolisk you have lying on its side would truly have been the largest in the world, but it cracked while it was still be carved out, hence it was never quite finsihed and still lies in the quarry, its a different angle but im pretty sure its that one, and thats why it isnt the largest ever moved, because it was never moved.

as I said earlier the largest stone ever moved by man was the thunder stone not the stone at baalbek

At the southern entrance of Baalbeck is a quarry where the stones used in the temples were cut. A huge block, considered the largest hewn stone in the world, still sits where it was cut almost 2,000 years ago. Called the "Stone of the Pregnant Woman", it is 21.5m x 4.8m x 4.2meters in size and weighs an estimated 1,000 tons.

this stone was limestone

The Stone of the South (Hadjar el Gouble) in Baalbek is measured at 21.5 m x 4.8 x 4.2 m, putting its mass somewhere between 900 and 1100 tonnes. Unlike the unfinished obelisk, it was taken out of its quarry, but still sits on an angle not far from the site of its extraction. Once again, this is smaller than the initial mass of the Thunder Stone.

this stone was limestone

It is sometimes claimed that the Thunder Stone is the "largest stone ever moved by man." This stone was not only tremendously large, but was also effectively moved 6 km (4 miles) overland to the Gulf of Finland by manpower alone; no animals or machines were used. It was then transported by boat up the Neva, and subsequently to its current site. Due to the large size of the rock, the easiest way to measure its mass is to calculate it. Its dimensions before being cut, according to the fall 1882 edition of La Nature were 7 x 14 x 9 m. Based on the density of granite, its mass was determined to be around 1500 tonnes.[7] Falconet had some of this cut away to change the rock to its current wave-like shape, leaving the finished, stylized pedestal weighing slightly less. This still leaves it the largest when compared to other large, sculpted stones:

this stone was granite

The Transportation of the Thunder-stone in the Presence of Catherine II. Engraving by I.F.Schley of the drawing by Yury Felten. 1770.

Originally posted by Raoul Duke

What about the great pyramid? How were the stones that are 100 tons, 200 tons, moved? Spiritual or technological means IMO are the most likely scenarios.

the thunder stone was moved in modern times with no advanced technology. no aliens, no lost civilisation, no levitation and no spiritual or technological means required

I dont see why exceeding complex and unfounded claims of alein help are always needed. My question is, why would aleins travel light years to help us build bassically useless things such as pyramids, yet leave when we become advance. If they are so concerned, why did they stop being, why dont they come back and stop nuclear war, or why dont they help us with disease, or even give us alternative fuels to fossil fuels.....they helped us build pyramids...but they wouldnt do that...in all honesty I would truly like to know if any believers in that have a reason for that

reply to post by Tenebrous

In your latest post, that obolisk you have lying on its side would truly have been the largest in the world, but it cracked while it was still be carved out, hence it was never quite finsihed and still lies in the quarry, its a different angle but im pretty sure its that one, and thats why it isnt the largest ever moved, because it was never moved.

Correct.
But if they can carve a stone that big it means they knew how to move it and errect it into place.
The link below,from the same location,shows equally large stones in part of the foundations of the Grand Terrace.

Originally posted by cormac mac airt
Based on the information provided below, which is based on findings in archaeology, paleontology, ancient population studies, genetics and many other fields, can anyone tell me where these "LOST AND HIGHLY ADVANCED CIVILIZATIONS" many espouse fit in at. Keeping in mind that if it is much more than c.220,000 years ago then they weren't HOMO SAPIENS. The closest "ancestors" were Homo Habilis and Homo Erectus.

Hey cormac could you provide a link for where you got this timeline from?

reply to post by Tenebrous


Maybe it has something to do with with what technology/abundance has done to us (spiritually). There's great wealth and great poverty on this planet. Moreover in the wealthier countries a lot of people have so much, but don't appreciate what they've got and are always looking for more. In the poorer countries there are still some barbaric practices going on like genital mutilation, human slavery, sweatshops, abuse of women, and degradation of the environment...

I've always thought, if we ever 'wise up', so to speak, we might come in contact with the Galactic Federation; who would then accept us.

I have a number of pet peeves with modern 'scientists' and people in general which unfortunately might be a bit off-topic:

1. We totally under-estimate what ancient man was capable of. Just because we don't know for sure how they built these megalithic structures does not mean they needed outside help. Modern man has access to cranes and high technology, so as soon as he needs to move anything really heavy he starts thinking of those things. Try to put yourself in ancient man's shoes. You have NO access to diesel driven cranes and technology, so you devise means at your disposal to move things and build things.

2. Just because 'modern man' became advanced in electronics and technology does NOT mean that ancient advanced civilizations had to advance in that way. If you could move things with your mind you had no means for cranes or tractors. I'm not saying that is the case, I'm saying I won't discount it as a possibility. I believe it is entirely possible that they either had nothing lasting to leave behind or they did leave things behind and we don't recognise it as such when we see it. What I'm saying is don't expect to find cd's, recordplayers, computers, etc. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that ancient advanced civilizations (if they did exist) had any of those things.

3. It might also be that they left things behind but we're looking in the wrong place. I'm thinking under the Antarctic ice or under the sea or even possibly on other planets.

4. Many things have been found but modern 'scientists' discount them as you-know-what.

[edit on 15-11-2007 by Lannock]

Well said Lannock

Yep our ancestors did some amazing things - just surviving all those hundreds of thousands of years is a testiment to our toughness.

Who needs aliens when you have the human mind?

Hi Argos, the information in my post was compiled by me from various sources, some of them are as follows:

www.sciencedaily.com...

www3.nationalgeographic.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

www.bradshawfoundation.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Raoul Duke


There are plenty of books on the locations of the region I call Lumeria. After the expeditions I will let you know what books to read. Maybe this will help, many many Moons ago a great civilization came to Earth and ancestors have told of these advanced great peoples. Some called them Gods and many have been in pursuit of these hidden cities and individuals died trying to find these lost cities. Man has passed over and near these great finds and many names have been given to these different areas or regions I call Lumeria.

As the Sun rises in the east it sets in the West where the secrets of Lumeria are waiting to be discovered. The Sun was the key to their believe and the Earth's Moon I believe holds many answers to this incredible place I call Lumeria. Rik Riley







[edit on 15-11-2007 by rikriley]

Originally posted by rikriley

There are plenty of books on the locations of the region I call Lumeria. After the expeditions I will let you know what books to read.

Ok please do, it doesn't sound like it's going to be too soon, so I'll look for a private message I guess. I find the topic of advanced civilizations in history fascinating, it's science fiction come to life (of course so are UFO's and Et's, but there's a lot more info out there on them).

Wow - there has been so much said here that I'm not sure I can respond decently to it all! Bad time to have a busy couple of days work huh.

Originally posted by cormac mac airt
It is my understanding that many of the crystal skulls have been debunked as 19th century forgeries as evidence of a jewelers drilling eguipment had been found on them. The discovery of the main one, sometimes called the Skull of Doom, is undocumented by its alleged founder and is of Brazilian Quartz, not found in Mayan areas.

That is correct, many of the crystals ARE indeed duplicates and forgeries and are in no way significant. However, there is one crystal skull at least which is as genuine an anomaly as one would wish to find - the Mitchell-Hedges Crystal Skull.

www.mitchell-hedges.com...

If this was the ONLY anomalous artefact on the planet then it would be enough to suggest that some kind of intelligence once existed on the planet. Sceptics suggest it was carved by sand over a period of 300 years but this is completely unproven and, quite frankly, unbelievable - there is no evidence of sandblasting on the skull.

Who left behind this artefact if not some kind of past advanced civilisation who knew it would stand the tests of time and become a flagpost for their existence?


kerkinana walsky, in regards to the Thunder Stone. (pg 4)

I am not sure what point you are trying make here because personally when I see tales of the Thunder Stone it only reinforces my belief that ancients were privy to some form of technology (likely to be knowledge of how to use vibrations and frequencies to the manipulate - levitate - large objects. Some claim monks can still perform this act. Coral Castle anyone?).

It took 'modern man' all that effort to move one Thunder Stone 6kms, so how do you explain the Grand Terrace as pointed out by Jakyll? Those stones were manipulated so delicately into place - how could pure man power achieve this? It does not explain anything. However, opening your mind to the very real and scientifically plausible possibility that sound and vibrational frequencies were used to manipulate the object into place does make sense. And this is a skill which I believe past civilisations understood and employed routinely.


Essan, in regards to your pictures of rocks with step-like formations. (pg 4)

They are some awesome pics and wonderful rock formations - very beautiful. I must admit that the first pic you posted really does look like some kind of ancient platform - and it does get my imagination running wild. The second even looks like a house of sorts.

BUT neither of them look like what is found at Yonaguni. The structures at Yonaguni appear much more deliberate, straight edged and organised. There is corridors with flights of stairs and all.

Your point about the ruins there looking as if made for people up to 20 feet in height isn’t as silly as it seems. There have been many bizarre finds of huge humans bones.
www.stevequayle.com...

The Australian Aboriginals talk of a past race of humans called "Doolagahl", meaning "great hairy man" which lived among them thousands of years ago.
www.theaustralianyowieresearchcenter.com...

While not the best website ever, Rex Gilroy has done some serious research on this topic and the site is worth an hour of your time to find the absolute gems of info in there. Like fossilized human footprints over 1 metre in length and 40 centimetres in width and agatized skulls.


And I think Jekyll touch on it, but in my readings and research I cannot count the amount of times I have seen this line appear after discussion of an anomalous artefact which would have truly challenged mainstream science and its foundations of belief -
"[the item] was later shipped to [enter Museum of Smithsonian Institute here] where it has since been [misplaced, lost, destroyed by fire]"

It is surely the sign of a cover-up that generally accepted artefacts are never lost of misplaced, but genuine anomalies, geez those little buggers just must grow legs of their own and disappear. Funny thing that


Oh, and in regards to the Piri Reis map - of course it 'debunked'. It didn’t fit into the accepted view of the world.

If I 'debunk' something, will sceptics automatically believe me just because they want to? Geesh, call something 'debunk' and no-one will challenge the debunker.