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Past Civilisations - Convince me WHY they didn't exist

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posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 01:05 AM
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Oh and those Lumerians, can you send me a link, to some picture or any other place that has any proof whatsoever that the exist? You've got me intersted




posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 03:15 AM
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I am always dubious of claims about the past. It is all too easy accept the established "truth" about the past especially if the alternative is unemployment!

Civilisations exist and grow near sources of water especially coastal river deltas. Now at the end of the last ice age sea levels rose 130 metres which means ancient civilisation is 130 metres below the sea! As far as I am aware this depth is beyond the level at which even the simplest "dig" can be performed. No doubt any sites will be covered with silt as well.

Any civilisation in the antarctic is below a mile or so of ice. Again I know of no method which can perform even the simplest "dig" here.

Therefore any assumptions about the state of civilisation beyond the last age is pure speculation without the evidence from these areas. Even the absence of evidence once these areas have been thoroughly examined will improve the validity of the current speculation. Until then nobody with any honesty can say yes or no to civilisations older than 18,000 years.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 06:41 AM
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Originally posted by kerkinana walsky
I don't know where you're getting your information from but its incorrect. the only tunnel I heard about is the one that links The Kings chamber of the Great pyramid to Zahi Hawass's office in Cairo so he can secretly conduct his satanic midnight mass unobserved


There is quite a bit of info out there regarding a tunnel complex under the pyramids... Just in the same way that tunnels extend underneath Mayan pyramids.

members.tripod.com...

from above source
Since the declassification of the new ground-penetrating radar 2 years ago, the most staggering data has emerged of complex and labyrinthine underground systems in various parts of the world. At places like Guatemala in the South Americas, tunnels have been mapped under the Mayan pyramid complex at Tikal, which extend a full 800 kilometres to the opposite side of the country. Investigators remarked, it was possible to understand how half a million Mayan Indians escaped the decimation of their culture.
In similar fashion, the SIRA radar was deployed in Egypt as early as 1978, mapping an extraordinary subterranean complex beneath the Egyptian pyramids. Arrangements made with President Sadat of Egypt, resulted in three decades of top secret excavations to penetrate the system.


www.hermetics.org...
towers-online.co.uk...
www.catchpenny.org...
www.dreamscape.com...

and there’s many more.

The point here is that just because sceptics and mainstream science says something isn’t so it doesn’t necessarily mean we have the complete picture.


Originally posted by kerkinana walsky
if that were the case then the Great pyramid would have collapsed a long time ago. It is still there because it is built directly onto the bedrock which had to be made level first with the use of a specially tailored blocks.


Wouldn’t there be no way to truly know this unless we deconstruct the pyramid itself and viewed the foundations?


Originally posted by kerkinana walsky
As you can see this means that Yonaguni could have been above water as little as 8000 years ago, thats 6000bce, which is exactly the same time that the Jomon were building identical structures all over that area anyway.


According to your source, the Jomon “used chipped stone tools, ground stone tools, traps, and bows, and were probably semi-sedentary hunters-gatherers and skillful coastal and deep-water fishermen. They practiced a rudimentary form of agriculture and lived in caves and later in groups of either shallow pit dwellings or above-ground houses, leaving rich middens for modern archaeological study.”

How could the culture described there be responsible for structures such as those found at Yonaguni?


Originally posted by kerkinana walsky
Edgar Cayce was a convicted criminal.
the A.R.E. are an organisation founded by him in order to escape prosecution for practicing medicine without a license. they are today a multi million dollar business who have been caught defrauding data again and again to keep the money rolling in.


I’m sure this information was taken from an anti-Cayce site. I don’t want to turn this thread all Cayce though so will leave I at this

Cayce’s medical predictions hit an amazing 95 per cent of the time – not bad for a so-called convicted criminal. I personally use some of his suggestions in my daily life and so far they have all worked a treat.

How do we know most of what Cayce said won’t come true later? How do we know who really built Stonehenge?


Originally posted by kerkinana walsky
he also claimed famously that "Poseidia will be among the first portions of Atlantis to rise again. Expect it in ’68 and ’69; not so far away"
we're still waiting


There were official reports made in late 1968 (I think it was) from local fisherman who stated that an unusual castle shaped coral structure emerged from the ocean only to re-submerge later. I can’t recall the exact location though – its late and I’m tired.

-----------------------
Added 'ex' tags


[edit on 14/11/07 by masqua]



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 06:42 AM
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C.C.Benjamin – thank you for reminding me of the Mahabharata. This is another invaluable source which more than suggests past civilisations - it openly describes them, their wars and their technologies.

It describes aerial vehicles (Vimanas), nuclear-type weaponary, great wars and more. This is ANCIENT knowledge and cannot be ignored.


Essan – mate honestly, you can’t compare Atlantis and Mu to Narnia and Middle Earth – that’s a pretty big stretch. There is DEFINTELY no evidence for Narnia, but there is likely evidence for past civilisations which pre-date modern science – call them whatever you want.


Originally posted by Essan
That's not a ruin though - it's an outcrop of rock which some argue may have been worked by humans to alter its appearance.


What? An outcrop of rock which has stairs, corridors, steps and is pyramidial in design? One heck of a rock outcrop!


RikRiley – Interesting information there. Where did you get your information? I would like to read more

[edit on 14-11-2007 by srsen]



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 06:52 AM
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Originally posted by srsen


Originally posted by Essan
That's not a ruin though - it's an outcrop of rock which some argue may have been worked by humans to alter its appearance.


What? An outcrop of rock which has stairs, corridors, steps and is pyramidial in design? One heck of a rock outcrop!


Maybe. But it's still solid rock. There are similar outcrops on the island as well.

The 'steps' vary considerable in size and depth - as if built for a race of 20ft, 8ft, and 4ft people, and it's pyramidal only in so far as it's top covers a smaller area than it's base


btw, this rock also has steps leading up it .......






posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 07:46 AM
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reply to post by srsen
 


No probs. The Ramayana apparently features a battle on the moon (which has some serious connotations of the ancient Hindu knowledge of planetary bodies, as in, they exist, aren't just light and aren't flat), but I haven't read it.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 08:47 AM
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reply to post by Tenebrous
 





I believe however, that at no time previous then what we know has a civilisation sprung up,and simply disapeared.


I guess it depends what you mean by disappered.Those listed below left structures behind,but the people themselves vanished in ways we don't know yet.Catal Huyuk and the Hittite people seemed to appear out of nowhere and soon vanished back there.

The Hittites.
The people who made the Nazca lines.
The ancient Tibetans.(see link)
The people of Catal Huyuk.
The Mayans.


It should also be remembered that,just because evidence of these people has been rediscovered,it doesn't mean every lost civilization will leave behind similar ruins every time!
Nature can be very good at destroying all trace of such people!
As can war!





there is no cover-up no attempt to hide them, every archeologist wants to be the first, a discovery like the ones you guys want, of a compeltly new civilisation that re-writes everything we know about human history WOULD BE THE GREATEST SINGLE DISCOVERY IN THE HISTORY OF ARCHEAOLOGY (yes i cant spell tonight, im trying to write this quick i need to go to bed) AND THE MAN WHO DISCOVERED IT WOULD DO EVERYTHING BUT COVER IT UP.


You will be amazed at what gets hidden away by museums and how discoveries that can change history can lead to the ruin of the discoverer.
Some times this happens because people who have become an authority on a subject have a reputation,status and money and blind faith and they don't want someone rocking the boat.Seems silly,but its true.

Gaston Maspero discovered and translated the Pyramid Texts.Auguste Mariette the leading authority on Egtpt at that time,declared that all pyramids were 'mute' they did not contain writings because that would mean they were more than just tombs.He didn't live to see the full discovery of Maspero.
The problems started with James Henry Breasted,a man dubbed 'the real founder of Egyptology in the New World.'
He past judgement on the Texts and declared that they had nothing to do with the 'stellar cult' they were nothing more than a 'solar cult'.This opinion damned the Texts and they were reduced to the status of silly surperstitous nonsence and what work Maspero did on them was ignored.
That opinion was held until fairly rescent times when historians 'dared' to go against J.H.Breasted and proved that the Pyramid Texts were so much more
than 'just another solar cult.'


Dr. Michelle Lescot of the Natural History Museum (Paris) in the late 1970's discovered in the mummie of Rameses 2nd traces of coc aine and tabacco.Things that could have only come from the Americas! Thinking she was wrong she did test after test and they all came back with the same results.So she anounced her findings to the world.And what happened?
The academics tore her to pieces,it didn't matter that she was highly respected,such a thing was not possible.....and then,16 years later Dr. Svetla Balabanova of the Institute of Forensic Medicine in Ulm (Germany) did the same tests on several Egyption mummies and got exactly the same results as Lescot.She also so got the same vitriolic response from the academics.She was condemned a fraud.
Dr. Rosalie David,Keeper of Egyptology,Manchester Museum took up the challenge of investigating the "coc aine mummies" which she thought seemed quite impossible.She was working on the dual assumption that one of two things are true: 1.Balabanova’s tests were compromised; or 2.The mummy was not truly ancient" (i.e. it was fake)Tests proved that the mummies Balabanova had worked on were real,and she found that the mummies in the Manchester Museum also contained tabacco!
Dr. Balabanova’s work had been validated by the test results from Manchester but she was now hooked on the problem and began collecting samples of naturally preserved bodies housed in museums all around Europe.So she obtained 134 separate bodies taken from ancient Sudan dating to a time long before Columbus or the Vikings. One third of these bodies contained both nicotine and coc aine!!
What does this mean?
It means that there was contact between South America and Egypt long before these places were supposedly discovered by Columbus.
Yet this attitude still prevails in many acadmeics....

The idea of ancient transoceanic contact between the Old and New Worlds before Columbus (other than the Vikings) is simply not acceptable within the tightly controlled halls of academia. Professor John Baines, an Egyptologist at Oxford is a typical case. He calls the idea of ancient transoceanic trade "absurd" and bolsters his "argument" by noting that he doesn’t know any professional Egyptologists, anthropologists or archaeologists who are "seriously" researching the idea. This is because, he says, the idea is not "perceived" to have "any real meaning for the subjects."


And those are just a cpl of incidents!!
You may find the links below helpful.









posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by jakyll

The Hittites.
The people who made the Nazca lines.
The ancient Tibetans.(see link)
The people of Catal Huyuk.
The Mayans.


ok the Hittites were not at any time a lost race. they appear in the documents of several surrounding civilisations like Egypt, who were at war with them and Babylon who they conquered. to say that not much was known about them from direct evidence because their settlements were not excavated until faily recently (last 100 years) would be more accurate.

the people who made the Nazca lines were known as the Nazca indians. their settlements have been excavated a long time and are right next to the Nazca plain which was a ritual centre for them

I had no idea that ancient tibetans were a lost culture since the chinese have been in and out of there for the last 4000 years

the people of Catal Hoyuk were never a lost civilisation it is a town and does not represent a civilisation in itself. its true that people didn't know that it existed until it was excavated but then like I said it was a town.

the Mayan were never lost either they are still very happy and alive and well and living in the same place that they have always lived except now they have electricty and televisions

you need to do some proper research if you are basing your understanding on these lost claims which on the whole were originally made by

1) christians fundementalists
2) Zechariah Sitchin
3) Madame Blavatsky
4) nobody
5) Erich Von Daniken

this reads like a whos who of nonsense history writers


your tibetan link is sensationalised media rubbish
try this one
www.zhangzhung.org...

In the remote past, the country called Zhang Zhung was known as a great empire throughout the Orient. Other civilizations have left behind ruins that have been excavated as evidence of their existence but because Zhang Zhung was basically a nomadic civilization few traces of its physical presence remain. The history of Zhang Zhung, however, has been preserved in both Bon and Buddhist traditions. These sources mention the places where the people of Zhang Zhung lived and indicate the mountains and lakes that they considered sacred. The whole of Tibet in ancient times was known as the ‘Three Regions of Zhang Zhung”. Zhang Zhung is the source of Tibetan culture and history. The study of Zhang Zhung is extremely important if we are to understand the antiquity, unique nature and universal importance of Tibetan culture, past and present.” Chögyal Namkhai Norbu


[edit on 14-11-2007 by kerkinana walsky]



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 09:33 AM
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Originally posted by srsen
Why are past civilisations, such as Atlantis and Mu, so damn impossible according to so many of us?


I cringe every time I hear someone claim that Atlantis was a real place; it just points to a lack of familiarity with Plato's dialogues. Atlantis was mentioned in two dialogues - Timaeus and Critias. He uses Atlantis as an example of a "perfect society" as laid out in The Republic. It's just a device used by Plato to expound on his political philosophy - not a real place!

Furthermore, we can see that Plato's account is not meant to be taken as history, because he claims that Athens repelled an invasion by Atlantis in 9500BCE ... Athens didn't even exist at that time.


Originally posted by srsen
There is so much evidence out there which shows that man was around MUCH earlier than our current science suggests and one-day, when I have a week or two, I will compile them all into one super-thread.


I have yet to see anything like this that holds up to scrutiny. You wouldn't be the first to create a "super thread" about this either... better to create an individual thread for each claim, if you want it to be seriously discussed.


Originally posted by srsen
How the heck did our original civilisations in Babylon just start out of nowhere if not influenced by existing civilisations? How did they learn language, culture, arts and law? How did they just suddenly know how to do all this?


They didn't... they developed over time.


Originally posted by srsen
I mean if there had been NO ruins found and NO anomalous artefacts discovered then I could maybe believe that we are Earth's first civilisation - BUT THAT'S NOT THE CASE!


There are no anomalous artifacts that hold up to scrutiny. Create a thread about one of these "artifacts" and let's discuss it.


Originally posted by srsen
You know what, believing that we are Earth's first global civilisation sounds about as ignorant, egotistical and ignorant (did I say ignorant?) as someone saying there is no other life in the universe.


Believing something without evidence seems more ignorant to me than blindly believing something because I read it on "crystalinks" or a similar web site.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 10:22 AM
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reply to post by JustMe74
 


What about the great pyramid? How were the stones that are 100 tons, 200 tons, moved? Spiritual or technological means IMO are the most likely scenarios.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 11:25 AM
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the largest stone in the great pyramid was 65 tons. there were two that size and they form the lintel of the kings chamber doorway.
there are murals of egyptians moving stones of up to 200 tonnes by sledge

the Romans were capable of moving stones that weighed up to 1000 tonnes with no technology

the thunder stone is officially the largest stone ever moved by man
it weighed 1500 tonnes and no technology was used
en.wikipedia.org...




[edit on 14-11-2007 by kerkinana walsky]



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by srsen
 


My discovery of Lumeria was purely by accident I had been scanning the planet Mars for thousands of hours of the many satellite and ground zero missions. Some how I knew I was picking up on a digital code that was being programed into my brain to aid me in seeing in 3D verses 2D or 1D. The camouflaged or stealthed images on Mars that I was able to pick up on and see from photos were I believe due to the tatooed grid and geometric hidden patterns on Mars I was programed and have learned to see.

I do not expect anyone to grasp or understand everything I just stated. I took this given knowledge and was scanning photos of the the western part of the United States Of America and I discovered Lumeria.

I will keep the specific locations confidential until I am able to set up expeditions to the many locations of Lumeria.

There is a specific photo of a flying disc better known as a flying saucer docked on the side of a canyon wall in the Lumeria region. The disk is parked vertically on the side of the canyon wall. Statues are plentiful and are some of the most incredible finds of the century. My belief the Lumerians were so advanced they used nano technology using crystals to stealth the statues and hieroglyphs in plain view. I do not expect anyone to believe anything I have just shared with you.

You may have thought how did I know this Lumerian civilization existed 1.2 million years ago. I was channeled the information and was told Perodacpyls, a gigantic flying bird, gave them the most problems especially with their children being attacked and carried away. I have never channeled in my life until I visually was able to see the statues and monuments of Lumeria. Rik Riley



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 11:32 AM
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Originally posted by Raoul Duke
What about the great pyramid? How were the stones that are 100 tons, 200 tons, moved? Spiritual or technological means IMO are the most likely scenarios.


The pyramid stones average about 2 tons.... the heaviest are about 15 tons. There are NO 100-200 ton stones in the pyramids. I'm not sure what you mean by "spiritual" means, but they were certainly moved with the "technological" means that were available to the builders.... Here is one interesting theory:
news.bbc.co.uk...

Why can't some people accept that ancient cultures were sophisticated enough to do these things on their own, without the help of magic or aliens? Ancient people did some really astounding things, mostly without the help of machines.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by rikriley

My discovery of Lumeria was purely by accident I had been scanning the planet Mars for thousands of hours of the many satellite and ground zero missions. Some how I knew I was picking up on a digital code that was being programed into my brain to aid me in seeing in 3D verses 2D or 1D. The camouflaged or stealthed images on Mars that I was able to pick up on and see from photos were I believe due to the tatooed grid and geometric hidden patterns on Mars I was programed and have learned to see.


yeah thats cool I believe you
I channeled some information that the planet earth is actually a giant marshmallow but the new world order conspiring with two pan dimensional mice have hidden its real geology by using stealth techniques and origami and we're whats left of invaders from the planet zarquon.
of course I can't prove this until I have launched some expeditions back to zarquon to get the evidence

can anyone help me because I didn't channel the information of Zarquons actual location
all i know is that its out there somewhere
along with the truth


[edit on 14-11-2007 by kerkinana walsky]



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 11:39 AM
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Originally posted by srsen
Why are past civilisations, such as Atlantis and Mu, so damn impossible according to so many of us?


They are not impossible, just improbable and at the moment we don't have any evidence that they existed.

I suspect we'll find a few more regional civilizations that existed in the time frame of 9000-6000 BC but these will be proto-civilization in the same vein as CH.

As I tirelessly suggest to all believer in of Atlantis, don't waste your time posting of websites, go find it....what not a scientist? Then raise money to send out expeditions or do research.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 11:45 AM
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wow... this thread is moving way too fast for me to keep up with in my limited time...

unfortunately when it comes to the subject of lost civilizations it seems like the only reasonable conclusion to reach is that we just dont know. all the evidence we have, pro and con, in inconclusive at best. we none of us were actually there, and if any of us were, they need to be speaking up. come on, i promise i wont capture you and dissect you


anyway, to the idea that holding up the theory of lost civilizations is a belief and thus unscientific - so is standing against the theory. to quote the boondocks (a reliable source of wisdom if ever there was one:@@
who were in turn (perhaps mis-)quoting someone in the bush administration: "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence." quoting a series of dates and migrations and population figures is not conclusive evidence. while im sure those figures were based on some valid ideas, it in no way guarantees that they're %100 accurate. dealing with something as far in the past as this theres always a thousand different factors that we arent even aware of to take into consideration. saying that at this particular point in our history, the world population was only 50,000 is only a vague estimation. if our civilization were suddenly completely shattered, people 50,000 years from now trying to piece together human history are only going to be able to guess at most things. theyre not going to find the fossilized remains of all 6 billion or so people alive right now. theyre not going to find ruins of every major city. theyll probably find just what were finding now. enough remains and badly deteriorated artifacts to say that people were around and making things. any ruins they may find will likely be described as anomolies, and many of these will be in places not particularly tenable for excavation. whatever may be left of new york (and it wont be a whole lot), for example, will likely be under the sea floor (im guessing).

of course, as ive said, this is none of it conclusive evidence. i just think many people overestimate how long human structures and artifacts can endure in any form thats even remotely recognizable to us. i often wonder how many stones have been picked up and discarded as being "just rocks" that were once spearheads or other tools. how many nuggets of gold have been found that used to be ancient jewelry? if we left a car sit somewhere for tens of thousands of years, would we even recognize it as anything other than an odd deposit of metal?

[edit on 14-11-2007 by frumpwallow]



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 11:51 AM
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Originally posted by JustMe74
I'm not sure what you mean by "spiritual" means.


You may not have heard it, but there's a lot of speculation out there that the ancients could either move stones with their minds, or extraterrestrials were known to the ancients and they helped with the building of the great Pyramid (or may have even built it themselves).



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by kerkinana walsky
 


First of all,when i say lost,i don't mean it as Mu or Atalantis.As far as we know those places are mythical....

The people i mentioned have been lost to history at certain periods in time.Nothing was known of the Hittites until the 1800's.The mythical cities of Troy and Iolcus were lost to modern man for centuries.The Nazca Indians are thought to have existed here between 200 AD and 600 AD, making them the most likely constructors in the eyes of orthodox archaeology.Lacking any evidence to suggest prior cultures living there,it is a reasonable hypothesis that gives these lines an uppermost age of just two thousand years.But lack of evidence does not mean an earlier people didn't exist there.
The people of Tibet can trace their past back beyond 4000yrs.


your tibetan link is sensationalised media rubbish

Can you explain your evidence for this?
Too many academics say such things and use no evidence to back up their arguments.Either that,or;its a fake,its a hoax,its a coincidence blah blah blah.Funny how they say such things when its something that doesn't fit into their idea of history aint it.
Catal Huyuk once was seen as a self contained civilization/society just as some other city states were.


Sitchin and von Daniken lean more towards the theory of aliens,i don't.As i said earlier,i don't believe we needed outside influence to progress.
M.Blavatsky theories are on religion and Christian fundamentalists don't want you to think about life before the Bible so i don't know why there on your list.




you need to do some proper research if you are basing your understanding on these lost claims which on the whole were originally made by


Proper research means,to me,reading everything on a subject from all points of views,not just those you agree with!
People like Graham Hancock make you look beyond the accepted 'facts' but that doesn't mean everything he writes is true.In his book Underworlds,its quite obvious that the pictures within are of man made structures,but i don't think his theory behind who made them is true.
If you ignore those who dare to go against the norm then you are conforming to the academics who can't see beyond their own reputations!!









Atlantis was mentioned in two dialogues - Timaeus and Critias. He uses Atlantis as an example of a "perfect society" as laid out in The Republic. It's just a device used by Plato to expound on his political philosophy - not a real place!


In Critias he talks of the Athenians going to war with the Atlanteans,its not a discussion on a perfect society.

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was thethat nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe.






There are no anomalous artifacts that hold up to scrutiny. Create a thread about one of these "artifacts" and let's discuss it.


Scroll up,if you will,to see some of my links.

But i'll start you off with a cpl of things....
The Piri Reis map.(all acadmices agree the map is authentic.)

The Piri Reis map shows the western coast of Africa, the eastern coast of South America, and the northern coast of Antarctica. The northern coastline of Antarctica is perfectly detailed. The most puzzling however is not so much how Piri Reis managed to draw such an accurate map of the Antarctic region 300 years before it was discovered, but that the map shows the coastline under the ice. Geological evidence confirms that the latest date Queen Maud Land could have been charted in an ice-free state is 4000 BC.



And,although not from 'pre-history' the Vaimanika Sastra text is full of wonders.


In 1875, the Vaimanika Sastra, a fourth century B.C. text written by Bharadvajy the Wise,using even older texts as his source, was rediscovered in a temple in India. It dealt with the operation of Vimanas and included information on the steering, precautions for long flights, protection of the airships from storms and lightening and how to switch the drive to "solar energy" from a free energy source which sounds like "anti-gravity."
It has eight chapters with diagrams, describing three types of aircraft, including apparatuses that could neither catch on fire nor break. It also mentions 31 essential parts of these vehicles and 16 materials from which they are constructed, which absorb light and heat; for which reason they were considered suitable for the construction of Vimanas.



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 12:02 PM
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speculation is based on probabilty

aliens building the pyramids and the ancients moving rocks with their minds is based on idiocy

theres a very clear difference between the two



posted on Nov, 14 2007 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by kerkinana walsky
 


I don't believe in these theories, but I've heard them, and I'm open to them. What I do think for sure, is that there's a lot about the ancients we don't know. If we are ever able to piece together a real human history, it will probably blow our minds, from the metanarrative we have now.





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