Are the Masons Evil?

reply to post by Rockpuck


You have mixed quotes..mine and others.

I certainly make audacious statements...but I do not take credit for statements attributable to others.

Pls ask me to affirm or defend my quotes only!

reply to post by Dark Skies


Sorry for the misunderstanding mate but um.. if you read through my post there buddy, you will notice about half way down the rest of the post is attributed to Paladin .. I do make sure to attribute words where they originate from.

Ugh!
All these big words...they make my head hurt.
What are we even talking about anymore?

"Free and Accepted Masons is the only legit group to join, be sure they have a Grand Lodge, other wise it may be clandestine."


Well, I am a Free and Accepted Mason and a 32 degree Scottish rite mason myself but personally I really don't get the "legit" designation. Prince Hall Masonry considers themselves legit I would assume as well as others. Just because the Free and Accepted Masons may consider them clandestine (which according to Merriam-Webster merely means: marked by, held in, or conducted with secrecy), doesn't make them any less legitimate.

This clandestine denotation is might also be another reason why the wiccan was expelled. Since Gardner's Masonic association has been supposed to be in some association with co-masonry while others claim he was associated with a specific masonic lodge that most mason's say does not exist and thereby there is no record of him ever being a Free and Accepted Mason, so is said anyway.

Many northern Free and Accepted lodges recognize Prince Hall masonry and it is not considered clandestine in those areas. Many in my jurisdiction (southern) do not. Co-masonry is definitely considered clandestine by F&A but does that make them any less legit? He is also connected to Crowley who is definitely considered clandestinely associated by many.

I am not a racists. Yet in my jurisdiction, participation or discussion of masonry with groups considered clandestine can get me in a heap of problems. Yet if I was in some Northern Lodges, I could easily sit in lodge with a Prince Hall mason.

Now, do i have to abide by my southern jurisdiction rules when visiting other areas? Some of this stuff is a mess it seems.

As far as me donating to charity for my brothers help? I do donate when I can. I also have a solidly built whole house fan in my 1940s home that will sit nicely in my brother's shop. He doesn't know about yet but will in a few hours. I have no use for it as my attic is large enough to be a second floor in which we intend to eventually make such. It is taking floor space i need. I don't use it, and he could. Was told by others my particular fan might be worth something. Hopefully it is worth something to my brother who could use a shop fan.

On another note, I said i have never seen a star of David in a lodge. Technically that is true. But, if you take the square and compass and connect the dots, you possibly have a star of David...or an upright and inverted pyramid joined together. as above so below type of thing if people wanna buy into it that. People see what they want to see i suppose. I am not agreeing or disagreeing with this possibility.

Originally posted by sentientsojourner
"Free and Accepted Masons is the only legit group to join, be sure they have a Grand Lodge, other wise it may be clandestine."




This clandestine denotation is might also be another reason why the wiccan was expelled. Since Gardner's Masonic association has been supposed to be in some association with co-masonry while others claim he was associated with a specific masonic lodge that most mason's say does not exist and thereby there is no record of him ever being a Free and Accepted Mason, so is said anyway.

Many northern Free and Accepted lodges recognize Prince Hall masonry and it is not considered clandestine in those areas. Many in my jurisdiction (southern) do not. Co-masonry is definitely considered clandestine by F&A but does that make them any less legit? He is also connected to Crowley who is definitely considered clandestinely associated by many.

Crowley was never a Mason,and had no comprehension of Masonic bylaws. He set to try to take over Scottish Rite and was unsuccessful.He also said some really nasty things about Freemasonry.

users.erols.com...

Crowley was about 25 years of age at this time. Later, he wrote of an incident about this time in the USA in which he attempted Masonic recognition from an someone and was taken aback when he was not recognized as a Mason. This seems to have made him very angry, and perhaps hurt. In 1904 Crowley joined what he seems to have believed was a regular lodge. This was Anglo-Saxon Lodge No. 343 of Paris under charter of the Grande Loge de France, which was not recognized by the United Grand Lodge of England.

It is interesting to note that in this same year (1919) in a letter, Crowley referred to regular 32° Scottish Rite Masons in America as "so many pieces of rather nasty dirt." In another letter Crowley wrote: "Affiliate Frank Lodge but rub it into him that even our eighth degree wipes its arse with the thirty third. As you and I need toilet paper, they can give us or sell us their dirty sheep skin." And in yet another letter of 1919:

"My point about our 33rd is this, that we cannot admit that any one soever is higher in Masonry than ourselves ... My idea is to hele the breach with Memphis and Mizraim; these rites, though messy, keep going. Now I am Patriarch Grand Administrator General, and can be S.G.M.G. at the election, which, by the way is overdue. Now I propose that the Scottish Rite absorb M. and M., conferring all its degrees formally upon their 32nds. Our price for this is seats on the S.C. of the Scottish in America. Otherwise, we use our energy to run every rite, Scottish and the rest, on our own ... Remember, we don't admit that their rite is any good until it has our O.K. Theirs is a forged charter."

In other words, Crowley was at this time attempting to gain a seat on the Supreme Council of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite in the Northern Jurisdiction in the USA. This is another instance that showed his incredible idiocy relative to Freemasonry. It was for this reason, among others, that he re-wrote the Minerval through third degrees of the O.T.O. He abandoned the project when it became clear to him that his scheme could not work.

Crowley was never recognized as a Mason.Period.

*points to Rockpuck and sentientsojourner and extends hand*

Come with me.
You have no idea the power of the Dark Side.
Join me and together we will rule the galaxy as...er...uh...friends.
*makes a tight fist*
Yes, come to the Dark Side.
(it's really not so bad, honestly.)



[edit on 2/9/2008 by wu kung]

Good ol brotherhood. Nothing evil here! Just a few murders within the lodge that not even the feds can investigate lmfao.


A 76-year-old man alleged to have fired the shot was charged with manslaughter.

William James, 47, was shot while participating in an induction Monday night at the Southside Masonic Lodge (search), Suffolk County police said. He was pronounced dead at the scene.

Detective Lt. Jack Fitzpatrick said the ritual that went "tragically wrong" involves making a loud noise to frighten the new member.

"The ceremony was designed to create a state of anxiety," he said.

The lieutenant said the Masons sat James in a chair and placed cans on a small platform around his head.

The alleged shooter, Albert Eid, was standing approximately 20 feet away holding a gun, Fitzpatrick said at a news conference. When the gun was fired, a man who had been holding a stick out of sight was supposed to knock the cans off the platform to make the inductee think they had been struck by bullets, he said

State of anxiety it was! Lmfao! How do you accidently switch an unloaded gun with a loaded one?! Ahahhahah it gets better.

Please do not feed the troll.


Mod Note: One Line Post – Please Review This Link.


[edit on 11-2-2008 by elevatedone]

reply to post by topsecretombomb


hmmm...

I could count the millions purged by Christians, Christian leaders, Muslims, Jews, and many other religions and organizations, nations and so forth.

One man killed in a Clandestine Lodge makes me evil.

But a Brother of mine below you advises me not to feed to feed the trolls, and so I shall be putting you on my Black List.

Bye-Bye kid-o

reply to post by topsecretombomb


That's close to where I live.
I'm in Suffolk District.
I've heard that story a million times.
Notice how (and I really need to you stay with me on this, okay?) there was nothing in that story about it being actual ritual work they were doing?
It was a bunch of guys, being stupid and doing stupid things.
It was not part of any ritual, nor was their stupidity sanctioned by any body, governmental, masonic or otherwise.

That kind of behavior is flagrantly negligent and highly dangerous and gives other guys a bad reputation.

Don't turn around and make something like that worse by saying "Good ol brotherhood. Nothing evil here! Just a few murders within the lodge that not even the feds can investigate lmao." because:

A) There were not "a few murders", it was an (as in one, 1, singular) accidental killing not unlike something that would happen on those deplorable Jackass-type shows and acted out purely out of ill taste and bad judgement.

B) No one said anything about...how did you put it?..."that not even the feds can investigate".
That's actually disturbingly true in the sense, that the police already know who is responsible, therefore (or ergo...I forgot which is more appropriate) there would be no need for the federal government to get involved. The crime is solved. So, no, not even the feds can investigate.
So, you got that right, but for the wrong reasons.

C) Making a statement like that doesn't make you clever, witty or cool.
It makes you look shallow.
Not cool man.

So was somebody prosectued?

Was justice served for that poor mans life that didnt know the darker sides of the "boys club?"

Lmfao! Shallow? Im not here to represent any kind of profiling you may eat up with your stereotypical assumptions! Lolol

Back to the subject?

So is there also a perfect explaination to the Roberto calvi murder? I dont remember if there is any thread on it yet.. Clearly there is somebody here who can answer why such an organization treats its lower peers as infidels!

Originally posted by topsecretombomb

So was somebody prosectued?

Was justice served for that poor mans life that didnt know the darker sides of the "boys club?"

You're the genius researcher, you tell me.
Why even put this story up here if you don't know the facts.

Lmfao! Shallow? Im not here to represent any kind of profiling you may eat up with your stereotypical assumptions! Lolol

That statement is totally nonsensical.
But your jovial attitude with all of your 'lmfao's and 'lolol's shows that you seem to be taking criticism well.
(note: sarcasm)

Back to the subject?

Are you asking me?

So is there also a perfect explaination to the Roberto calvi murder? I dont remember if there is any thread on it yet.. Clearly there is somebody here who can answer why such an organization treats its lower peers as infidels!

Why are you mixing up your stories?
Roberto Calvi was involved in the Italian P2 Scandal, which we have covered time and time again up on ATS.
He was in no way involved in the happenings here on LI.
P2 wasn't even a sanctioned lodge, they were clandestine.
You need to get your facts straight (in all honesty, I'd like you to first get some facts, and not screw up and confuse them, then represent them in a coherent manner, then perhaps we can discuss these subjects without you acting like a know-nothing-know-it-all) before you start posting such things.

Plus, your statement about being treated like an 'infidel'...
Do you even know what an 'infidel' is?
Personally, I've never been treated like that at any lodge I've ever been to.
When I was an Entered Apprentice and a Fellowcraft I was treated with the utmost respect, as I also treated my fellows with the same.
Your arguments are so flawed, it's like I'm talking to a 15 (fifteen) year-old.

If you're going to debate against me, then come prepared.
Again, you don't sound cool or hip.
It appears that you're grasping at straws in order to try and validate your opinion.
Your opinion is yours, and you are welcome to it.
No matter how far from reality it may happen to be.
Just admit that you don't know what you're talking about and we'll agree to disagree.
If you continue down this road, you'll only make yourself look worse.
Keep in mind, I'm saying this to you in the nicest possible way.
Oh, and if you do persist in engaging in debate against me, at least be studious about your spelling, punctuation and grammar.
Nothing degrades the legitimacy of finger-pointing like poor sentence structure.

This is ATS, not the cafeteria at some high school somewhere.
We aspire to create a level of decorum here, try to follow along please.



[edit on 2/11/2008 by wu kung]

Originally posted by masonica_esoterica


Crowley was never a Mason,and had no comprehension of Masonic bylaws.

Actually, Crowley was a member of Anglo-Saxon Lodge in Paris, where he received all 3 degrees. During Crowley's life, the Lodge was under jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge de France, which is was not recognized by the UGLE or the US Grand Lodges. However, after Crowley's death, his Lodge became regularized when it was issued a charter by the National Grand Lodge de France, which is recognized as regular.

Regardless, Crowley never actively participated in Masonry, and the only Masonic meetings he ever attended were his own degrees (3 meetings).

He concluded that Masonry could not be reformed, and so devoted all of his time and energy to make the O.T.O. into what he thought Masonry should have been.

Originally posted by Masonic Light

Originally posted by masonica_esoterica
Crowley was never a Mason,and had no comprehension of Masonic bylaws.

Actually, Crowley was a member of Anglo-Saxon Lodge in Paris, where he received all 3 degrees. During Crowley's life, the Lodge was under jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge de France, which is was not recognized by the UGLE or the US Grand Lodges. However, after Crowley's death, his Lodge became regularized when it was issued a charter by the National Grand Lodge de France, which is recognized as regular.

Regardless, Crowley never actively participated in Masonry, and the only Masonic meetings he ever attended were his own degrees (3 meetings).

He concluded that Masonry could not be reformed, and so devoted all of his time and energy to make the O.T.O. into what he thought Masonry should have been.

So - just to clarify - Crowley was NEVER a Freemason.

Much like other non-Masons, he was not part of a recognized Lodge or subject to the constitution and edicts of a recognized Grand Lodge. He was just some guy who joined a group that had no affiliation at all with Freemasonry.

Just want to clarify that.

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by mmmeat

So - just to clarify - Crowley was NEVER a Freemason.

Crowley was made a Mason in Anglo-Saxon Lodge, and English-speaking Lodge in Paris, France, in 1904. He was apparently erased from the roll for non-payment of dues the following year.

At that time, Anglo-Saxon Lodge was not recognized by the UGLE, but now it is. Crowley was a Mason, but a clendestine one during his lifetime. His Lodge, however, has since been healed.

Much like other non-Masons, he was not part of a recognized Lodge or subject to the constitution and edicts of a recognized Grand Lodge. He was just some guy who joined a group that had no affiliation at all with Freemasonry.

We cannot say that he had no connection to Freemasonry, since he was initiated, passed, and raised. The Lodge was regular, but clandestine. Crowley himself didn't seem to understand the difference, and later became very critical of Freemasonry.

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Crowley was made a Mason in Anglo-Saxon Lodge, and English-speaking Lodge in Paris, France, in 1904. He was apparently erased from the roll for non-payment of dues the following year.

So - just to clarify - Crowley was NEVER a Freemason.

He joined a clandestine, unrecognized Lodge. He was no longer a member of said Lodge after it became regular and recognized.

Therefore ... NOT a Mason.

Your pal,
Meat.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
So is there also a perfect explaination to the Roberto calvi murder? I dont remember if there is any thread on it yet..

Here are several threads on the P2 lodge I located using the very helpful and often pointed out search feature.

P2

More P2

Even more P2

reply to post by mmmeat


Um.. He was a Mason. He went through the same degrees as regular Masons, the lodge was not recognized, however, it was eventually .. its members where then Masons.

But seeing as the point is he was initiated, passed and raised, he was a Mason. Albeit, for a very short time.. he was like our typical Ring Masons.. get raised, walk away. To say though that he was not a Mason, is to say that no Frenchman was a Freemason, even though they where, just not recognized yet by the UGLE.

You say you are not a Mason correct?

Regardless, Crowley never actively participated in Masonry, and the only Masonic meetings he ever attended were his own degrees (3 meetings).

Maybe because his own filosophy was identical with masonry and there was nothing new to learn?

He concluded that Masonry could not be reformed, and so devoted all of his time and energy to make the O.T.O. into what he thought Masonry should have been.

Reformed in to what? how can a member come in to a lodge that is not even reconised by all masonic bodies and try to reform the institution?
There is no logic in what you are saying.

Here is what you are saing, this is what I'm reading.
He went 3 times and because he saw he can't reform masonry he left it.

Originally posted by mmmeat


He joined a clandestine, unrecognized Lodge. He was no longer a member of said Lodge after it became regular and recognized.

Therefore ... NOT a Mason.

I think I remember you saying that you're not a Mason, so you may not be completely familiar with intrinsic (and sometimes paradoxical) Masonic politics.

Crowley was a Mason, but a clandestine one. If we say that Crowley was *not* a Mason, that would be the same thing as saying that Prince Hall Masons were not really Masons until the UGLE recognized them.

Obviously, PH Masons *were* already Masons, otherwise they could have not been recognized as such, but instead would have had to have been re-initiated.

Same thing for Crowley's Lodge, which is now a recognized Lodge. Aleister Crowley was a Mason in the same sense that Nat King Cole, Duke Ellington, Count Basie, and Thurgood Marshall were Masons. They were all regularly initiated, passed, and raised, but their Lodges were not at the time recognized by the UGLE.

[edit on 12-2-2008 by Masonic Light]